I was reading Libretto quite a while ago and noticed the question in 'Ask the Chief Examiner' and thought 'we've had that loads of times on the forum' (can't remember what it was now though ). Which got me thinking 'I bet it's a long time before there's a question in there that hasn't been discussed on the forum'.

Anyway I thought it would be interesting to see what people would ask if they were given the opportunity, it might give some ideas for forum discussions of various issues, and indeed some good questions to pose. Who knows, if there are some good questions Christine might even be able to get her here to answer a few . Or we can just email them to her . Doesn't have to be an original question that's never been asked before (after all the most interesting issues are often open discussions that have no answer) just anything you'd like to hear opinions on or discuss .

I'd like to know what the rationale is about the aural tests, how the tests were chosen and why. Just out of interest. I'd also like to know how they choose the pieces for each grade.

Yes, I'd be interested on the pieces front. There do seem to be some odd things occasionally. For example, this present woodwind syllabus has a Loeillet Sonata (identical movements) set for Grade 5 Flute and Grade 7 Oboe. I can't think it's easier to play on the Flute rather than the Oboe so it seems a little odd.

Interesting thread- I shall follow to see what others suggest.

I would like to know why some pieces on a grade are that much more difficult than other pieces on the same grade, and whether or not the same degree of accuracy is needed.

Yes, I'd like to know about the piece selection procedure as well, and if they ever take into consideration comments from teachers about the strengths and weaknesses of the existing syllabuses.

Slightly off-topic, I'm interested in your comments about the Loeillet, oboist, as I hadn't realised it was a Grade 7 oboe piece. It isn't a particularly difficult Grade 5 piece on flute, although some of the ornaments are tricky.

Related to the questions about piece selection - I wonder if examiners are aware which are the most demanding pieces in the syllabus - I can't think that they could be across the entire range of instruments and grades. Given that, I'd love to know the criteria on which they do judge the piece which is grade 4 here and grade 6 there.
One thing I do know - one of the pieces I did for grade 7 gave and still gives me more grief than any of the others done for grade 8 and the ATCL - and even more than the LRSM-level one I'm learning now...

I'd ask why there are so many scales at grade 6..........

...and higher

Just thought of another one actually, I started a thread on this a while ago: are the marking criteria for grade 5 really actually the same as for grade 1? Seems like there must in reality be some implicit expectation for better playing; even if it's officially not the case.

i'd like to know why is it that sometimes pieces on the same grade have different difficulties, like some pieces seem easier/harder than other pieces on the same grade..

ShArOn

I'm sure I've read articles in Libretto or elsewhere about the training of new examiners to ensure they apply the right criteria and the appropriate standards, but is there any refresher training for more experienced examiners, to ensure that things don't change over time and the level of expectation in exams is consistent?

I agree entirely, Grade 8 piano at the moment is a complete mixture with Mozart K332 being about grade 5 standard, and some C pieces Diploma standard.
I can also detect different degrees of difficulty in other grades, but of course difficulty is a subjective thing and we dont all perceive this in he same way.

Assuming you could ask about theory as well, I would ask why the comments sheets for theory exams are not so detailed as for practical. For example, how would I know if it were my chord recognition that needed work for the next exam? A blanket score for each section of the exam doesn't tell me anything.

My question would be Chief Examiner, please may I have a distinction for my diploma please?*

On a more serious note, I'd incline to agree with the points others have raised regarding both the selection of pieces and the scale requirements. Looking at the current Grade VIII clarinet syllabus, no piece is easy, but some are more difficult than others, although I recognise that different people's strengths lie in different directions.

The scale requirements for the higher grades are just crazy! There aren't many clarinet pieces in remote keys, or even with scale passages in those keys, and if I were to ask a candidate to play every single scale and arpeggio, it'd take the whole lesson.

Oh, and a further plea would be for a Spring session for diploma exams. If I louse up I have to wait until next July for a retake.

*It's OK, I know the answer to this one. It's Yes, of course you can, providing you meet the required standard.

There is a lot right about ABRSM exams.

I would like to ask the chief examiner why there are no technical exercises for singing grades, and after Trinity Guildhall released their new syllabus, why has there been no revision of the songs for Singing Exams.

Also TG have just produced a transparent set of criteria required to reach certain standards for each exam. I would like to see the ABRSM follow suit as this is an excellent development.

Please I'm not suggesting that ABRSM becomes TrinityGuildhall, but I do believe they could learn some lessons from them.

I've been able to air my concerns about TG's exams with their chief examiner face to face. It would be nice to do the same thing with Clara Taylor.

Not being a Teacher maybe I've no right to ask the Chief Examiner anything!

If I had then I think it would have to be about the Recorder Grades. I know it's all been discussed before as to why there is nothing for Descant after Grade 5. However I think I would ask him to look at Grades 6-8 and develop them as Recorder Exams not just Treble. So they would be changed to officially incorporate both or more Recorders not just on an if you want basis as they are now. Perhaps 4 pieces instead of 3 with 2 being played on each instrument?

if i can ask about theory, besides this, i would also like to ask what's the marking scheme for grade 6,7 and 8 theory papers, like how do the markers decide how many marks they want to give for the various sections..

ShArOn

I would ask all the normal questions which come up hereon about diploma examinations, not least, why does it take so long to get the results compared to other boards?

I would ask why the exams are not recorded. I think it would be useful to have some scope for moderation of marking between different examiners (as currently happens in other disciplines).

The answer to this is "yes". Colleagues of mine who examine go every year to examiner training sessions and if they don't go, they worry that they won't get invited to examine the next year. So they go. Also, we were told at a seminar I attended, that every examiner is moderated (ie has another senior examiner watch them do a day's "live" examining 1:1) every 2 years and mark forms are, of course, read before they go out and are checked. So it seems to me the ABRSM does its best to ensure its panel of examiners are kept up to speed.

It doesn't seem to be a question of once you're qualified you're never checked out again.

I find the marking criteria in 'These Music Exams' pretty clear actually.
I'm not sure about the TG marking being split as it seems to give too little scope for 'high' and 'low' marking in each band (pass, merit, distinction).

Was just about to post this as a result of another thread .

Specifically, does she consider the appeals procedure really gives candidates a fair deal? I understand that recording exams would incur expense and effort; but given that consistency of standard for every candidate is the most important thing to making an exam system valid, would it not be worth the effort, as it is for diploma exams? I realise that the system doesn't often fail (or at least this isn't often reported to have failed) but it does sometimes, and for those people this is important. For others too: it's never failed for me but I'd like to know that should it do there's something that can be done. Is the solution of giving the candidate a free resit at the next session (putting their learning on hold, or at least slowing it) really a fair outcome for a successful appeal? I realise that this is all that can be done with the current system, but a recording would offer the opportunity for a fair re-mark.

I seem to recall a while ago reading an article on how pieces were graded (libretto perhaps?) but it was quite vague and concentrated on the procedure, i.e. we have a pannel of experts and they decided 'somehow' rather than the specific criteria they use, to be honest I think it's mostly down to expert judgement and there aren't any specific rules, otherwise we wouldn't get the variation between grading of pieces in different years.


Nonsence, as a parent and payer for exams you have as much right as everyone else .

Having read it I find it a little woolley. It would be nice to have clearer criteria for each grade. Each mark schme is of course up to each board, but I would like a clearer indication of expectations so I can pass these on to my pupils.

As for the new TG scheme, one thing it definately is is transparent. We all need to wait and see how it works in practice.

I think that system is an abomination, and have said so to the board from probably about ten years ago when I was actively involved in a "successful" appeal. I think only one of the considerable number of candidates who had been failed by the first examiner took up the option of an immediate retake, which means that all the rest had the setback and lost the full examination fee. At least one of the candidates who failed (after having achieved distinction marks in earlier grades) was absolutely devastated and needed her confidence rebuilt over a long period before she was able to consider taking another exam. Luckily she was young enough to recover with good parental and teacher support and is now happily playing violin as a very good adult amateur.

I would like all candidates whose appeals are upheld to be offered the choice of an immediate full refund of their fees or a credit for the full amount to be set against a future entry at any grade in any subject. The financial cost to the board might be greater but goodwill is priceless

I don't think I'd even find this a satisfactory outcome: the candidate has not gained anything at all, and has suffered a horrible setback potentially threatening their will to carry on playing. A full refund would be fine if the problem were just financial but it's the disappointment the candidate has had to face and all their effort in preparing. I know if I was in this situation I'd be a lot more upset about the effort I'd put in and the result of the exam than the exam fee. I'm not for a second suggesting compensation or anything (society is bad enough for this as it is) but a recording of the exam to be listened to, with the correct result being given following that would be a perfect solution: the candidate doesn't have to go through the exam again, prepare for a further three months and gets the fair service they deserve .

On behalf of a friend , I'd ask if examiners are so accurate that some students - including this friend - may fail with 99 marks , just one mark froma pass ?

And I'd also like to ask another question concerning theory , composing question. On what basis is this question corrected ? Maybe the composition is found terrible , but I beleive this is a point of view . People made fun of Beethoven's compostions at the begining , before they really realised how great and immortal they are.

I think if you read my whole message again I hope you will see that I wasn't suggesting that this was a satisfactory outcome overall. I suppose it's what I regard as an absolute minimum initial action on the Board's part to avoid compounding the emotional and potential long term musical damage by punishing people financially in addition.

That would probably be the case for many people who have paid their own fees, but much of my exam accompanying is for children from non-musical families, not necessarily able to afford the exam fees easily, so the present system really adds injury to insult and may put pressure on child and teacher to retake the exam immediately when it's quite likely not the best thing to do either emotionally or musically.

I've no idea if there are plans for all exams to be recorded, though I agree it could provide a useful safety-net. Meanwhile I would like to see the immediate financial response implemented, leaving people to pick up the pieces without financial penalty and start again when they feel ready.

I would like to ask why it takes so long to get a result for a practical exam....

I take my exams with Trinity for two reasons, (having had children that went through ABRSM and Trinity)

1. I get the results the minute the examiner leaves the centre, meaning I learn from the feedback, as I can still remember what I have done! This is the most important reason, (as the longer the time the less clearly I remember what happened).

2. Despite the fact that I am learning theory for myself I think the fact they insist on having taken a theory exam before you can take a practical exam is not on. You are marking a practical exam and the ability to play.. (It could penalise people that have real acaedemic problems who can in fact play instinctively brilliantly).

I would like to ask him on B3 in Grade 6, Vals Poetico by Grandos. Why they insist on us having pedals when there is no pedals mark there? That lost me many many marks If they indicated that in the first place then maybe! Possibly maybe I wouldn't have to retake the exam the second time.

I wonder whose idea it is that taking the same grade exam three times is a good use of time or money. Actually there are very very few situations where you have to take grade exams at all.

I've begun to teach a sixth form student this term who received 119 for her last exam.

I'd also ask why sometimes the comments seem to bear no relationship to the marks awarded e.g. There were some moments of really lyrical playing....and then 13/30!!! (from a friend's Grade 5 flute)

When my Girls took their Trinity exam it took 3 weeks to get the results and 5 months for the certificates to arrive. You've been very lucky!

This is precisely why a transparent mark scheme is so important. At present there are some vague criteria an then a mark is pulled from the air (apparently) if the criteria were more specific then :
1) It is easier for the teacher to assess the appropriateness of entering that candidate for that exam
2) The grounds for appeal would be more obvious thus helping to prevent unnecessary appeals and conentrating the appeals process to those who really need it.

However, when special considerations were made for my son's Grade 1. The ABRSM were very helpful, abided by the regulations and offered him a free resit that session. If there is a good reason why your candidate messed up during their exam, it really pays to contact the board immediately. The staff may be busy, but I have always found them courteous and helpful.

It always pays to read the small print of the regulations they are there for a purpose.

I's like to ask if we can have some newer and more interesting pieces on the brass syllabus PLEASE! They haven't really changed much in the last 4 years and some of the pieces i played for my G7 and G8 "way back when" are still on the lists! I do like the look of the new TG repertoire and if those sort of pieces were on the Ab lists I'd be delighted.

I'd also like to ask for separate lists for cornet, trumpet, flugel horn and soprano cornet at G6 and above as the most of the pieces on the lists are considerably easier to play on a trumpet than on a flugel horn for example as they don't suit the flugel horn (or soprano)

It appears the ABRSM can learn a lot from the new TG syllabus. Personally I find ABRSM easier to deal with, but I prefer their singing syllabus so tend to enter pupils for TG singing exams ( currently the Trinity ones).

If you are reading this Clara Taylor there are some really good suggestions being made. Maybe you would like to form a focus group and use their ideas as a way of revamping the syllabi.

I've always liked the TG idea of expecting the candidate to know a little bit about the pieces they are playing e.g. if the piece is called Minuet, they should have some idea of what a minuet actually is, or if the piece is clearly binary, what does that mean/how do you recognise it? This sort of background knowledge deosn't seem to feature in AB exams, other than in the discussion of a non-prepared piece played by the examiner in the ear test section of the higher grades............and yet suddenly for diploma they expect progamme notes and in-depth discussion in the Viva. Surely it would be a good idea to work candidates up to this gradually? I would like a Grade 1 candidate to be able to say why they like/dislike a piece; a Grade 5 candidate to be able to give some basic reasons for saying that a piece is Baroque; a Grade 8 candidate to be able to place a piece within the context of the composer's output (e.g. is this typical of Chopin's Waltzes?). This would also encourage people to explore repertoire beyond the set pieces and take a wide interest in the composers.

Because composers often took it for granted that the pedal would be required and that players would use it and know how to use it......sometimes they would only put the odd pedal marking here or there if it deviated from what would instinctively be used by the pianist......you can almost take it for granted that a lot of music if not most from the romantic period of music would need pedal to make it effective......



Do you think the examiner forgot to write next "unfortunately all the notes were inaccurate, but you played the wrong notes very lyrically"???????!!!!

And at grade 6 you might be expected to be able to make some of these decisions yourself.
Absence of markings doesn't necessarily mean don't use pedal.
(would such a small thing cause a fail without many other problems?)

I wonder if it's possible that unrelated comments and marks stem from the fact that appointments are so precise and timimgs are so short...? I f things are running late - perhaps due to a few very slow sight-readers in a row - I can imagine that an examiner will be pressed to be eloquent in the comments he makes, with regard to making them relate to what he feels is a fair mark for the performance he has heard. This is not just a comment on AB exams, but on them all; I feel that a little more time should be allowed for the examiners to give carefully considered responses before having to face the next candidate. It is bound to be the case that if a mediochre candidate follows an excellent candidate the examiner's reaction is certain to be coloured, and a merit might become a pass - or worse.

Financial considerations are obviously a factor in this, but let's consider what has already been spent in the run-up to the exam, in the form of lessons and books. To make each exam, say, £7 more expensive, in order to feel that the examiner will be able to really think about the performance, I feel, would be worth it. And money is not the only issue - the time that goes into preparing for exams is something that cannot be measured in fiscal terms. An offshoot of this would be that less candidates would be entered before they were truly ready.

That's strange .



That's also strange !



Can't agree more .
I was once sitting with a grade 6 candidate when I realised she didn't know what a sonata is .

Another question has just came now.
In aurals , sight singing:I think the gap between grade 5 and grade 6 is really huge. In grade 5 there's no tempo , no accompaniment , etc. In grade 6 there's this shock .

I think that for sight singing the grade 6 test is the easiest because of the accompaniment.

I'm not sure if the Guildhall exams always included a viva voce section, but the Trinity ones certainly did from about 30 years ago when I was using them regularly. The viva (worth 5% of the total marks) started with simple factual questions about note names and values etc., gradually introducing keys, form, knowledge of composers etc. I always felt it was an excellent idea and more demanding of the teacher in a good way than the AB syllabus. I haven't looked at the new combined TG syllabuses yet but hope they have kept the best of both.

It will be called 'Musical knowledge' and is optional up to grade 5 but disappears completely from later grades.
At grades 1 - 5 for supporting tests you have to choose 2 from Musical knowledge, sight reading, improvisation and aural.
For grades 6 - 8 sight reading is compulsary and the choice is between improvisation and aural for the second test.

I would like to know if it would be possible for the ABRSM to publish (on their diploma resources page) lists of pieces for different instruments that have been set at grades 6, 7 and 8 in past years as these give the only indication of the level of the diploma quick studies. For some instruments it is easy to find out which pieces have been set for different grades as ABRSM publish books of exam pieces, but for less popular instruments it can be difficult to find out if you don't have old copies of the syllabuses.

Can assure you that everybody is notified once the examiner is safely in his car, the mark sheets are then avaliable with comments, I cannot imagine that my centre is acting differently. Ther CERTIFICATES come later. I learn so much from receiving the feedback straight away, not to mention the fact I know the best or worst straight away. Exams are not an end in themselves, they are a marker to help me with my motivation, they are pointers to help me identify strengths and weaknesses... and so feedback... quick is really important.

For that reason there is one exam I did use for ABSRM which I must praise them for and that is the the practical assessment which offers you comments on your playing immediately with no mark. Thank you for that ABSRM you gave me the confidence from that to go on to take exams.

I would like to know why they've sent only 1 examiner for my LRSM if it's written that there will be TWO same happened for DipABRSM...

And yes, the witing for result is terrible!

Another question actually, inspired by someone else's: why don't the AB publish a list of the pieces on past syllabuses on their website? Is it an issue of having time/resources; or would they rather it wasn't published for some other reason (pieces being on different grades; wanting to sell compilation books)? I'm sure it would be a useful resource for teachers and candidates both in learning and for those who want to remember what they played for their exams when they were young !

As for examiners' comments not matching marks I suspect these arise from the time pressures on the examiners, and the fact that they only get to hear the performance once. I suspect that if I were an examiner I'd find it much easier to listen to a piece and decide what mark it was worth accurately (writing that down at the time, of course) than to write some accurate comments reflecting why it was worth that (often finished at the end of the exam) . I'm also certain that the examiners are asked to try and write something encouraging about the candidate's performance if at all possible; forcing the comments to appear complimentary even if the mark does not. These factors make me suspect that it's more often the case that the marks are correct than the comments are when there is a discrepency. Of course the board can't say this as the official line because that would be admitting a flaw in the system with no comeback; they can do nothing but allow an appeal and I guess in these cases it will be argued that since the examiner obviously didn't get both correct (they contradict) a retake should be allowed. I do, however, suspect that in most cases it's the marks that are correct rather than the comments. Interesting that one rarely hears of complaints/appeals that the marks are too high for the comments .

Hi everyone,

Just a quick note to say what an interesting topic! It's always great to get feedback be it via Libretto or via the forums. Be assured we're following your comments and queries closely.

On another subject - it seems appropriate to raise the fact that some posters are mentioning examiners by name on these forums as part of discussions. Please can I ask you all not to do this out of respect for their privacy?

Many thanks

Christine

Thanks for responding Christine.

In light of the changes at TG does the ABRSM have any intention at seriously looking at its exams and revising them.

Personally I prefer the TG syllabus for singing as it is has much more scope in it to cater for pupils young and adult. I also like the fact that technical exercises are compulsory. Having said that I still enter the occasional candidate for AB.

The biggie that I feel needs reform are what TG call supporting tests. I like to feel I'm producing musicians. I like some of the options. I also like what they have done to aural tests and feel that this is far more relevant to a practical musician than the AB options (even though I thrived with these whilst a child).

The changes at TG provide an excellent opportunity for the ABRSM to consider their exams, their content and what they want to assess. If after considerations it is considered the right thing to remain with the status quo then so be it.