Stupid question probably but it's Xmas eve, have survived 2 church services & half a bottle of wine, and can't go to bed cos of Santa arriving...
Is it possible to have some singing lessons to learn how to sing "properly" (or more properly) or is it like everything else I've started in that once you realise how little you know you want to learn more & more. I mean I started flute lessons almost 3 years ago & thought I'd have a few lessons so I knew more about what i was supposed to be doing... and now would really like to get grade 8, & get withdrawal symptoms if I don't get to play my flute every day. Same with piano really
Anyway have sung alto in the church choir for just over a year now - singing alto cos there weren't many of them (well 2 to be precise ). Love singing the harmonies but have just sung the Xmas carol descants. My singing currently is based on principles of flute playing ( support, breathing properly, etc) but would love to sing properly.
Any thoughts???

Well, I psyched myself up to having singing lessons and promptly got hooked. And that's what brought me into enjoying all sorts of other music too.

So beware - it's addictive.

But, that warning notwithstanding, go for it!

OK So how do I break the news to my husband that singing lessons would be "a very good idea"

Same as I did when I broke the news to Misterjay. "I'm going to have singing lessons. That's alright, ISN'T IT." And not waiting for him to argue over it.

Yes, do it APF, I have had much the same thought process of late and took the plunge by booking a lesson with a local teacher (recently principal Bass with the Royal Opera)... Not sure how it will go, but the enthusiasm is there to give it a real bash..

My advice is have a go!!! Sight-reading one line of music must be easier than two or three....

I had singing lessons for a while but never really took to it.

How come? Do you sing on a regular basis anyway or was it a "try it and see" kinda thing?

I'd sung in church Choirs from being about 10 and then in my 20s joined a local choir I sang with for over 20 years.
It was while I was still in the choir that I had some lessons.
I think that one of the problems with singing lessons was that I never saw singing as something you practice at home, just something that you do naturally.

About a year ago, I decided to have singing lessons for a term, to learn how to sing 'properly'. Well, one term sort of got extended, and I'm still having them now! I agree that it is somewhat addictive, as you continue to improve, and don't want to stop improving!

I'd say Go For It APF. And tell Mr. Piano-Flute that it will be good for your all round self-confidence and musicality. But, as KJ says, it's very addictive. I found it by accident - I'd only gone along to my teacher to have a couple of voice-projection lessons, and here I am several years later, totally hooked! It's also good to consider taking Grades. Having been told I couldn't sing as a child I've always grown up believing it (and still do at times!) A nice certificate proving otherwise is a good confidence builder!



Ambs
x

Let's all do it! I feel a gr8 singing challenge coming on

APF Hi

I would suggest a "consultation " lesson with a local teacher for an hour or so which commits you to nothing beyond the lesson to review

1 Current state of your voice
2 What can be done to correct any problems or faults
3 What you want to achieve

My view is very black and white about singing - but this is a personal prejudice - you cannot be half hearted By this I do not mean y0u give up everything in the search for the perfect voice BUT you practice properly every day and put into practice what your teacher tells you. No mental reservations

If you don't like the person you have a consultation with or do not feel confident they can achieve what you want. look for another teacher

You should notice impreivements within months if your teacher is any good - however the received view is that it takes about 7 years to develop a voice to a good standard

Is that a theory promoted by teachers charging on an hourly basis?

Seriously though, you have to qualify your statement with some parameters : what is the starting point? what age is the student? what does "good standard" mean?

Don't take this as a flame, I'm seriously interested since I'm embarking on a similar path soon and as my ex-clarinet teacher will attest, I get frustrated if I don't make the progress I expect...

...small problem of finding a teacher first, I think

..as far as "taking 7 years to get a voice to a good standard" - I have no illusions that singing "properly" is as difficult as playing any instrument properly. Maybe (to start with ) I'd like to know more about the technique/technical stuff so that I can at least sing with more confidence

I have just had two husbands purchase a block of five singing lessons for their wives as Christmas presents. There is no obligation for them to continue. I printed vouchers with some basic T & Cs on them and if they do want to go on, they will be put on the same contracts as my other pupils.

I think this is a lovely way for people to see if it "their thing" before committing, and as I teach everyone from non-singers through to Grade 8 am happy to oblige. I did the same thing last year and 2/3 continued having lessons.

I suppose this puts me in the "experience" business, but as that is lucrative and could bring someone a whole new appreciation of singing - I'm not going to say no!

Now theres a good idea! Heres wishing someone would do that for me..

I always think its such a lovely gesture and each time there's a really nice personal story that goes with it.

When I first read this bit, I thought *shocked voice* "but surely that's illegal, jod?"

Hazel

Re - the 7 years of lessons to make a singer This is no different than the AVERAGE instrumentalist taking grade exams and taking a number of years to study and achieve results to grade 7 or 8 standard

It is also based on

1 Most singing students will commence adult singing study at college in their late teens or early 20s Men's voice boxes do not settle until the middle 20s About 26 as the bone finally hardens It takes that long for th muscle and technique of diaphragm support to be ingrained so that technique is instinctive

Now this is the absolute minimum requirement - in addition there are the important musicianship and linguistic skills - acting and interpretive skills required become a complete performer

To sum up It takes about 7 years to get the basic voice and a lifetime to learn how to use it

I am speaking from the point of view of someone who has spent thousands on my voice without any regrets and would do so again It is an itch I had to scratch

This a personal view and I respect anyone who does not feel that BUT if you don't I should not bother with singing lessons

Finally I make most of my teaching income from teaching people to play the guitar so I am not grinding that particular axe

Thanks tonyteech for a nice reply. Lots of food for thought!

Well, I have my first singing lesson tomorrow. I'm not sure what to expect. 30 years of bad technique and the like will no doubt figure highly.. Still, it's another challenge....

Looking forward to hearing all about it

It was interesting. He talked a lot about open throat, which made me laugh when I remembered Amber's thread! Can't get the hang of this 'low breathing' and diaphragm stuff though. Perhaps I haven't got one?

Errm...three lines of music? When does that happen? I only see it in pop music books. Top line's singer, bottom 2 lines are piano parts. Is there any other circumstance when it happens?

Organ: RH, LH and feet (although very occasionally the feet get a stave each, or one of the hands gets two staves)

He he! Just make sure the "low breathing" goes down into your back, not your tummy - all that does is displace your gut!! (And, more seriously, puts undue downward pressure on your diaphragm - not good.) It scares me how many teachers teach this type of breathing.

This is interesting. There seems to be a lot of talking in these terms, but the difficulty I'm having is translating this type of imagery into the physical. Obviously we breathe through the throat and down it goes into the lungs, but how do we move from that into breaths down the back or down the tummy? To me it's

but tonyteech, surely your 7 years doesn't take into account that many people will have years of singing experience prior to going to lessons (which is why so many adult learners seem to be started off at around grade 5 rather than grade 1), and that many singers also bring other kinds of experience to bear on their performance? For example in my case I have a first class degree in speech and drama - this helps both in understanding the basics of vocal production, and in understanding the elements of performance. I also have always read music and have good pitch. (I'm just using me as an example. Other people will bring other things to bear on their singing). So I think the basis of Mr B's question is perhaps whether the seven year claim really takes all this prior experience into account.

MrB

Try sitting on an upright dining room chair with your bottom right to the back, and feeling the chair rails in your back. Take a huge breath in through your mouth in the speed as if you were breathing in to sing, then, without breathing out, close your mouth and sniff in several times through your nose, feeling your back muscles push out into the chair rails. This encourages your back muscles to become more elastic to get more air in. (This one straight from a singing teachers' conference at RAM.) THAT's where the air should be going - never straight downwards so your tummy pops out. You can also try lying on your back on the floor or in bed, breathe in and feel it go down into the floor (or mattress).
As you (hopefully) have been told, you should always breathe in through the mouth (sorts out the position of the soft palette), with a "happy surprised" expression - throat is then automatically opened, like the beginning of a yawn.

Meercat

My conservatoire professor always said that it takes 4 years (post-grade 8) of FULL TIME training to train a voice. It's not musical experience in other disciplines which counts towards that time (though, of course, that's important), but the time to master the mechanics of singing technique, with sufficient practice, to develop a voice to full maturity. That only happens in time, no matter what experience one has, as it is a physical growth.

Can you imagine filling up your lungs from the bottom up rather than the top down?

Not a singing or breathing expert but that works for me.

Back breathing - I totally agree with the foregoing I have the typical tenor build of ribcage that flares out to accommodate lungs No the beer belly is lower down although I only drink alcohol twice a year - my birthday and Christmas

I started as a beginner baritone at 25 and performed Tonio and Alfio for six performances as my first principal parts 6 years later as a semi pro I was singing in a fully staged performance over a large orchestra at Wembley Town Hall I used to walk up from the tube and think God I have got to sing in that

The seven years I am talking about is from absolute young beginner to lowest levels of professional or good amateur in mid 20s based physical development It is not my opinon but that of two teachers I have had who were professors of singing at London academies The Guildhall and The Royal Academy of Music

When I went up to tenor it took me 3 years intensive training to get to a stage where I could sing Enao Grimaldo in La Gioconda over a 90 piece orchestra My next part after that was Canio and then Radames over large orchestras No hiding in the chorus for me

Please note I am talking about singing principal parts over orchestras in large venues involving fully staged and acted performances with many many rehearsals Towards the end of each rehearsal period prior to the peformances there would a double run ie the operas would be staged twice in a single rehearsal

I, as a principal had to sing full out at every rehearsal otherwise snide comments were made about the money I was being paid

This is the standard I mean - this is not Grade 5

Um, I didn't say you were talking about grade 5. I was just saying that many adult learners start further down the path, using grade 5 starting points as an example.

We all know you're a professional singer who can sing over a big orchestra tony. And I think we all know that it takes time to develop that ability. That really wasn't what I was questioning.

I think that, with the best will in the world, people are talking at cross-purposes here. And that's inevitable if one is contributing to an internet forum and doesn't know the other people on the forum.

Tonyteech's assertion about time is fairly clearly based on the model of a "standard" music student - probably deciding in their mid or late teens that they want to sing, and having a significant period of physical growth still to come.

The direction from which Andy-piano-flute, MrBouffant, Meerkat and I would come from is being beyond that physical growth period - in our thirties or forties - and therefore having our full adult musculature,skeleton, cartiledge and lungs.

So perhaps the professional teachers here could tailor their responses to the expectations of the thirty-somethings, who have done the physical growing already, have in many cases developed a lot of musical understanding already and are now exploring a new instrument which is their voice? Rather than grandstanding about their own experience and development, which, while undoubtedly interesting, are not the issue.

I would say as a teacher who teaches adult singers that the main physical development will be completed and there may be a superior intellectual and educational development to a teenager

But muscle memory needs to be developed - physical stamina needs to be developed and so does the mindset Remember I did a lot of singing lessons in my 30s to move from baritone to tenor and I had considerable public performing experience

I would say you need 3 - 4 years minimum to develop the voice to perform creditably in public at a reasonably good amateur level

I would agree with that - possibly longer - it depends on the student. Some are blessed with better instruments than others.

When exactly do we stop/finish physical growth? In school, I learnt it as 18 for females and 20 for males. Right now however, my aunt told me females continue growing till they're 21. She didn't say an age for males but I imagine it's maybe 22/23/24. *shrug* I did grow 2cm last year haha and I'm 19. *grin* I never had my growth spurt. Maybe that's why?