I was just wondering about Jazz Flute exams do people find them easy generally? I bought grade 1 for my daughter which she found too easy and we have just got the grade 3. She does seem to find them very easy and I'm wondering if she is doing something radically wrong. As she is Grade 5 ish classical flute so there are no problems with playing the notation.

I am just concerned that she is not doing the improvisation right. She has done a little before in her beginner flute group, so I guess the teacher explained what to do.

She is drawing the impro from the box and using the notes identified in it. Is this the correct way to do it or is she missing something? It sounds quite good to me but then I've no real knowledge of music. She does understand the differences in the 3 styles of music and has been working through some books that explain Jazz styles and some Jazz studies.

On the one hand I accept already being a reasonable flute player and having a good understanding of technique will make things easier than for a beginner but I can't help feeling there has to be more to it.

Help!!!

The notes in the boxes are a guide to improvising, you can build upon them to form the whole improvisation. I wouldn't say the exams are easy, but she may be finding the actual reading of the head ok. The thing I found the most challenging was embellishing the head, after the improvisation solos. Has she been embellishing too?

I don't know what that means! She plays the witten notes as they appear (she can more or less sight read these, but that's what I would have expected). What is embelishing the head?

She has improvised around the notes in the box and plays in a style similar to the piece, she is not playing the same as the flute on the backing track on the solo part but sometimes she plays a note the same.

She has no problem joining the parts she's improvised to the written notation and she has played to the CD.

The fact she can play the written notation easily is not a shock, she knows summertime (one of her chosen pieces) quite well, it's the impro that I have doubts about.

I think the choice of notes she is using is wrong but don't know why.

Embellishing the head is where the player does things such as adding in extra notes with those that are written, changing rhythms, adding blues notes etc. Basically the main idea is still there just you change little things to add a sense of variation, playing around with the musical overall idea. It adds variety to the piece rather than just an exact repeat of the head. Hope this makes some sense?

That's something she's not doing, she wouldn't know that this was required. I think I understand and I'll try to explain it to her. She has been sticking to playing the notation as it is on the CD. She does change the rythem of the solo part and add twiddles.

The main problem is that we don't know a jazz specialist so we'll have to try and seek out someone to hear what she's doing and advise or I'll have to ger a recording made of her to post on the forum website

Unfortunately the jazz flute pieces are too recent to go up on the recording website

I don't have the skills to do it anyway it was tongue in cheek.

So Sarah what do you think have you looked at any of the others as you were talking about Grade 1 a while back? How have you found them?

lol, ok.

Have you seen my edited post?

Just saw your edited post

I have tried all the pieces from the G1-3 books. Haven't looked in quite some time!

The head on all of them is easy but IMO offers a fair amount of scope for ornamenting/playing with, which is quite fun.

I enjoyed doing the jazz aural tests on the cds - I can see those actually being quite a lot of fun in an exam!! Maybe I'm just weird

The improv is definitely the most difficult bit objectively, I think, unless a person has experience of it. I enjoy it but I am not sure whether or not I am doing a good job...

The notes in the boxes are just a suggestion - you don't have to stick to them exclusively. I like to try and tie in bits from the rest of the piece so the improv is linked to the head. Listening to pieces in the style(s) of what she's trying to improvise to would help you both know whether she's along the right lines.

You can also look at the chords and harmony, and look in the scalebook at scales which fit the suggested pitches, which can be a good jumping off point for improvisation.

All the jazz people and jazz books seem to say rhythm is the most important thing - without a good rhythmic sense, it won't make overall sense.

It's quite possible, I found (it's been a while since I had a play) to make quite effective but very simple improvs, but each piece also has the scope for doing lots of crazy stuff if you had the inclination and the skill.

All in all, if you don't have a specialist you can talk to, it may be a case of her doing the best she can and seeing what happens. That's my plan, I can't see another way of doing it without having regular access to a jazz specialist.

Some of the reasons for me thinking I'll start with G1: I'd rather enjoy the exam and do well!! I don't really know what they want and expect, so the more feedback I can get, the more use I can make of the syllabus.

& to be honest, there's SO much material, insofar as I can find several pieces at least that I can for each list in each of the 3 books, and each piece could be treated in SO many different ways with regards to improv and embellishment, that I think I could probably even take grade 1 three times and learn something new/get some different feedback each time.

ps am v much a beginner in jazz myself, so don't take any of that ^ as gospel - it's from one not-knowing-much bod to another!

Well Sarah you know so much more than I do. Joyjoy has been very helpful and some of the things she's explained you've just supported. It's very difficult being the parent of an 11 year old who is musical when you are not. Today she's played through some of Norton Improvising Microjazz and definately learnt stuff.

I feel there is so much more that she needs to learn. There is a source that we can get some advice from hopefully, and I'm going to ask the Music Service who their Jazz specialist is, when they start again next week.

You're right about the newness of the thing and that making the whole process more difficult (think that will be a problem with the music service bet they are still making up their minds about how to proceed with it). It might just be a faster Grade 5 route to allow her to move on from than theory which we need to get more organised. I'm not thinking instead of just buying some time. Maybe the fact that it is new is an advantage (nothing to compare it to).

Thanks for the info

I think she probably needs to listen to some jazz solos so she can get the idea of what jazz is about. Improvising in a jazz style isn't just rearranging the notes you've been given to improvise with - it's about building ideas in a jazz style, ie with a good rythmic sense (swing!), a nice feel, developing your ideas throughout the solo - there's really so much to it.

But I would always say listen first and foremost. Buy some jazz CD's in various styles and see what she likes, dance around the room to the music! Also, it's important that she understands the concept of the 'jazz quaver' or 'swung quavers'. They're written like quavers but the first one of a pair is held for twice as long as the other and they suggest a 'lazy feel'. But this is all very hard to explain in words - the main thing is to listen to jazz and listen as much as possible to improvised solos until you get a feel for the feel.

Violinia

Thanks for the advice! I will buy some CD's for her to listen to.

She understands about the Jazz quavers and can now see where she can use them in other pieces she is playing. If nothing else comes of experimenting with Jazz she has learnt some important things. I am amazed at how she's worked out fitting the solo's into the pieces and to me the sound seems appropriate (I am critical). My biggest concern is the notes used for the impro.

For me I don't understand how she can do it even at the level she's at, but what you suggested about dancing round possibly has something to do with it. Perhaps all those years spent tap dancing and making up her own routines is helping her.

Just a thought - if you're looking for a jazz teacher for some advice remember it doesn't have to be a flautist - she already has a flute teacher. Any jazz teacher with experience of ABRSM exams should be able to give some useful advice.

That's good advice. I give lessons and workshops in jazz violin but have also given jazz workshops to flautists, accordionists, bassoonists etc; jazz flute is particularly easy for me to teach as the range is similar to the violin's.

What do you mean exactly, that your biggest concern is the notes used for the impro?

Normally a scale or a mode is given - like:

the 'dorian mode', (the series of intervals of D to D in a C major scale) for improvising in a minor key

a major pentatonic scale (C D E G A C for improvising in the key of C major)

a minor pentanic scale (A C D E G A for improvising in the key of in the key of A minor)

a blues scale (A C D Eb E G A)for improvising over a blues in the key of A (major or minor)

You can also use the notes of a simple major scale with some tunes, though you may need to flatten the 7th when there's a dominant chord in the chord sequence.

The idea of being given certain notes to improvise with is to help you improvise appropriately, using notes that don't clash with the notes of the chords.

When learning to play jazz it really is best to start very simply, just using one or two notes from the appropriate scale and gradually adding notes until you gain in confidence and fluency.

By the way if you live in (or are ever down in) the West Country - a long stretch but you never know! - I'd be very happy to give your daughter a simple jazz workshop! I've been teaching a Grade 3-level 11-year-old for a term now and she's already producing some lovely jazz solos!

Violinia

Thanks for the pm, not musicmum - I've sent you one back.

Violinia

okay the exams are by no means meant to be easy im sure! BUt considering you're daughter is grade 5ish why is there a need to go back to grade 1? I did classical grades to grade 5 and grades 6,7 and 8 jazz without going back to the beginning and got an honours in grade 6 and 8!

Im sure the books are good to get her started in the impro mood etc. And by the way - the head(the bit written down) is normally quite easy in terms of rhythm. What an examiner will be looking for is copying rhythms from the head, sequences and jazz techniques eg glissandos and note bending, flutter tonguing although this may be difficult for your daughter at her stage.

Good advice is to just play the notes of the chords that are stated and then build on this when you have the feel for the piece.

Does her classical teacher offer any advice on the jazz?

The Head as you call it wasn't a problem at all for her, she is looking at Grade 3. Her classical teacher nearly fell over with delight when she appeared with the Jazz book! She is not an improvisation specialist by any means but plays with a swing band so not totally clueless either. My daughter was using the right information to improvise but wasn't quite getting it right in continuing the tune. I had a strong feeling something wasn't quite right. Now she knows where she was going wrong.

At the moment we've decided to put the Jazz on hold, firstly so we can catch up with Violinia and secondly to get Grade 5 Flute out of the way as she was so near to it. Despite not being very experienced teaching Jazz her teacher is keen to look at it with her, which will be fine, but we could do with an expert opinion before taking the exam.

At the moment she's working on it when she has time or as a break from classical. fingers crossed she might take it in the Summer.

SOUnds like a sensible idea. But if she finds the classical practice in the lead up to her exam she can always take a break with the jazz - best of both worlds!

Magicflute said:

"okay the exams are by no means meant to be easy im sure! BUt considering you're daughter is grade 5ish why is there a need to go back to grade 1? I did classical grades to grade 5 and grades 6,7 and 8 jazz without going back to the beginning and got an honours in grade 6 and 8!"

I do agree, I iwouldn't start at grade 1, but am also confused. I thought jazz exams only went up to grade 5. Have they added higher grades now?

yes thats right abrsm only do up to grade 5 i believe. However I did it with the enemy(guildhall)! They go up to grade 8!

I think if an adult who is sure of their own capabilities chooses to switch form classical to grade 6 Jazz then that's fine. I don't want my daughter to do this, partly because she is not quite 12, so has had less exposure to music, and she does not need the pressure of doing something difficult ,as she has several intrument s on the go and is currently working on exams in them as well as Grade 5 theory. For her Jazz is an aside at the moment as there's still plenty of time to do it seriously. Being a none musical parent I wouldn't have the confidence to just enter her without advice.

I'd just like to say that I know you may not be directing the comment directly at me, but I wasn't an adult when I switched from classical to jazz. However I do agree that your daughter hasn't had as much exposure to music. But its possible to explore both styles at the same time even if one is for exams and one is for fun!

Sorry for assuming you were an adult, I didn't mean any offense, only that when you are older you have the maturity to decide for yourself. As my daughter is still quite young and only been playing seriously for 2 years I'd have to share the decision with her. It's not learning Jazz that I have an issue with she is doing this and she also plays in a junior folk group. She wants to explore lots of Music and I'm happy to support that.

Incidently she wanted to take the Jazz flute exam but I wasn't comfortable with it as I've already said in this thread. Not being musical it was only instinct that led me to conclude something wasn't quite right in what she was doing. Having taken advice it transpired she was partly doing it correct and largely going down the right lines for someone who was teaching themselves but wasn't ready for an exam. Don't ask how I knew!

In the short time my daughter has been involved with Music I've learnt not to let things suprise me. You have a special skill that has allowed you to switch between classical and Jazz, I'll have to wait and see if my daughter is capable of doing this too.

the folk group sounds fun!

It only started in September and consists of Tin Whistles, Bodhran, Guitars and Violins as it's Irish in style. My daughter was playing a D Flute/whistle until she was asked to switch to Mandolin a couple of weeks ago! It is good fun and they all seem to enjoy it at the moment the stuff thye are playing is quite easy.

Pity there isn't a similar Jazz group, for some reason there are no flutes in the swing band.

Probably because there isn't usually a flute part for most music you buy arranged for swing/big band, and not even a concert pitch part in the right sort of range for a flute to play - you can get round similar problems with not having many pieces with a clarinet part by getting the clarinet to play a trumpet part, or tenor sax an octave above. For the few pieces where there is a specific flute part it's usually expected that one of the saxes will double - if it's not for the whole piece the flute part may well end up embedded in one of the sax parts.

In my school jazz band I play alto sax instead. Like Tsax said there are not many arranged pieces with flute parts! but i think there should be!

It won't be long before she can join Big Band with Sax, she's taking grade 3 this time, I don't know the official level she will need to be and suspect she might struggle as we don't know the conductor (think it's quite a tight group).

I just spent 3 hours playing stuff from the jazz flute books not solidly but largely... it was fun

Are you bothering with the exams or just doing it for fun? I think my pest has her teacher interested now, I've heard that she's been looking at Jazz websites and found some jokes It's top of the agenda for after Grade 5!

I'd quite like to take the exams, firstly just out of interest to see what the level is, secondly as exam practice, and thirdly to get a "qualification" of sorts should any future pupil wish to do a bit of elementary jazz - I rather think in the serious jazz world saying "I've got grade 5" wouldn't mean much, but it would certainly reassure me and I suspect would reassure students/their parents if the teacher had some sort of qualification related to jazz

I do think the exam could be rather fun, except for the pressure of improvising under exam conditions (it's amazing how much it put me off just recording myself!) - the aural tests etc are fun, the pieces are fun, playing to a funky backing track... might give me some more positive vibes about the prospect of exams..........

the more you improvise in front of people the more you'll get used to it! And improvising is fun - I recommend doing runs, flutter tongueing, ghosting, whistle blowing - effects like that will gain you a few extra marks!

I can understand adults and pupils feeling nervous or uncomfortable about taking exams and if taking the Jazz exam helps then why not? The piece of paper wouldn't bother me if you were teaching my daughter then not all parents are the same.

It's really odd that my youngest is one of the quietest most unassuming people you could meet yet she loves doing exams. Musically she knows her own mind! Her dad has tried to talk to her and the teacher wanted to start on the Jazz straight away and let her take both exams in the summer. She decided to get the grade 5 Flute out of the way and then concentrate on the Jazz, although she's had a bit of help from a student neighbour so has been working on it.

I'm going to try to record her over the weekend on a voice recorder (if I can borrow it) don't know if it will work! I've tried on to my laptop but the fan kleeps kicking in and I can't seem to turn the internal mike off (I know how to do it).

Ghosting? Never heard of that. Whistle blowing - whistle tones or whistling while you blow??

I seem to recall reading that singing and playing and key slaps were also considered worthwhile special effects. Whether I'd be brave enough to use them in an exam situation I don't know.


Yeah, it's one of those things whereby, because i have lots of potential small reasons to do it, the other small reasons just add weight - I'm sure many parents wouldn't know there were such things as jazz exams. I HOPE the exams will be fun.........


Groovy

I need to find a jazzer or two to play with - though I learned such a lot from Jane & my workshop with Violinia the year before last that with some extra practice I'm still managing, I think.


Cool

[quote name='sarah-flute' date='Feb 23 2007, 03:02 PM' post='468783']
[quote name='magicflute' post='468657' date='Feb 23 2007, 09:54 AM']the more you improvise in front of people the more you'll get used to it! And improvising is fun - I recommend doing runs, flutter tongueing, ghosting, whistle blowing - effects like that will gain you a few extra marks![/quote]
Ghosting? Never heard of that. Whistle blowing - whistle tones or whistling while you blow??

I seem to recall reading that singing and playing and key slaps were also considered worthwhile special effects. Whether I'd be brave enough to use them in an exam situation I don't know.

Yup, singing and playing is good! I forgot to mention it cos i can't do it so don't use it! Ghosting I think is when you finger the notes and only blow a little breath through ie don't play properly. Okay let me give an example - like you would when an examiner says to you have a practice at sightreading and you would blow but not get a proper sound. Does that make sense? Whistle blwoing is when you actually put your mouth over the tone hole and bow - should sound a bit like a train whistle/something like that!

hope that helps!

Ahhh yep I know what you mean now

Singing and playing I couldn't do for ages then I caught the knack of it. It is good for an instant tone pick-me-up!

Oh! I wondered about Ghosting and Whistle Blowing too! I don't think daughter has tried the second one, she'll enjoy that if I can describe it to her! She is very consious when she sings so don't think I'll be able to convince her to try that

Sarah it's your fault I knew about the Jazz Flute exams. I first heard about them in a thread you started asking when they were being released

I would love for her to do a workshop with Violinia and it's one of the things on my list of Musical things to organise it's just the logistics of getting down south.

What can I say? I'm a bad influence - ask anyone!


*nods* - I wouldn't have got there had it not been for Jane. It was fun! Does anyone do jazz round your way?

Well she has the student to help her(he's studying music at uni) and her teacher is keen (she plays in a swing band) don't know of anyone else. There must be people as we are not far from Chets and RNCM but I've no idea who they might be!

Worth looking into - I think it's one of those things which needs as much exposure as possible

Can't afford to do anymore for her on a regular basis at the moment. I'm going to have to try to save for an intermediate oboe as Grade 5 is coming faster than expected and if she keeps going like this she'll be grade 8 before I've got enough money together. just glad we upgraded her Flute at Christmas.