i FINALLY think i understand what happens when a piece in a major scale modulates to the dominant major or subdominant major...the fourth is sharpened or the seventh is flattened! (big achievement for me anyways!)

but now I'm trying to figure out what happens when a major modulates to the relative or the supertonic minor, what happens when a minor modulates to the dominant or relative major. Sometimes I also have a problem with minor to subdominant or dominant minor. I always get really confused when minor comes into the picture...am I supposed to use the harmonic, melodic, or natural scale of the minor? Is the both the 6th and 7th key raised after the modulation, only the 7th key, or neither? in other words...what happens???

can anyone pls help me out? And also, what do you listen for in each of the different modulations, and what does it sound like?

btw, i know there is the trick where u hum the keychord very loudly when the phrase is being played in the exam and test the last note but i sort of want to do it properly (in other words, aurally) for once... and besides i always get mixed up if i do that (distracted)

I think you're trying to understand it from a mathematical standpoint instead of a listening one.

Play a tune like Twinkle Twinkle in C, then play it in G. What happens? Do you need to know which note sharpens or flattens or do you just need to be able to recognise the shift of the tonic from one key to another?

When the extract is in the first key, listen hard and mentally sing the scale and arpeggio of that key. If it's in a minor key it's irrelevant whether the scale is harmonic or melodic - the key (and arpeggio) are the same whatever version of the scale you pick.

When you sense there's been a modulation, mentally sing the scale and arpeggio of the new key. Then work out what the interval is from the tonic of the first key/scale to the tonic of the second key/scale. If you count 4 notes (inclusive) then you've modulated to the subdominant. If you count five notes it's gone into the dominant. If you count two notes it's gone to the supertonic. If it's gone into the supertonic and there's a minor third between the tonic and the third, it's gone into the supertonic minor. If there's a major third interval it's gone into the supertonic major.

Here's a simple example: Twinkle in C: CCGGAAG, FFEEDDC.

Now you have a melody that seems to revolve around the scale of G - suppose it goes: BBGGCCA, BBGGF#F#G. (I changed the tune because in a test the tune won't exactly repeat in the new key unless you're very lucky!)

The F#, which doesn't feature in the scale of C, should give you a pretty good clue that it's switched to the key of G.

If the tune goes something like DDAAFFE, FFDDC#ED, you should be able to hear that it's gone into D minor. If the tune goes FFDDGGE, FFDDECD, it's still D minor even without the C#, because you'll also be listening to the chords, and you be able to hear that there's a minor feel rather than a major feel.

It's far too complicated to try and work these things out mathematically because there's far more chance of making a simple mistake that throws the whole thing out. Your ear is the best guide and your ear is the thing you should be training.

If all the above comes across as too complicated, then do a Kodaly course! Cyrilla will point you in the right direction.

Violinia

How do you find a Kodaly course in Cornwall?

I'll answer my own question here, namely, you don't!


The world ends at Bristol, and if you're lucky at Plymouth.

Yes I'm moaning again...

QUOTE (Violinia @ Jul 16 2004, 08:11 AM)

I think you're trying to understand it from a mathematical standpoint instead of a listening one. Play a tune like Twinkle Twinkle in C, then play it in G. What happens? Do you need to know which note sharpens or flattens or do you just need to be able to recognise the shift of the tonic from one key to another? When the extract is in the first key, listen hard and mentally sing the scale and arpeggio of that key. If it's in a minor key it's irrelevant whether the scale is harmonic or melodic - the key (and arpeggio) are the same whatever version of the scale you pick. When you sense there's been a modulation, mentally sing the scale and arpeggio of the new key. Then work out what the interval is from the tonic of the first key/scale to the tonic of the second key/scale. If you count 4 notes (inclusive) then you've modulated to the subdominant. If you count five notes it's gone into the dominant. If you count two notes it's gone to the supertonic. If it's gone into the supertonic and there's a minor third between the tonic and the third, it's gone into the supertonic minor. If there's a major third interval it's gone into the supertonic major. Here's a simple example: Twinkle in C: CCGGAAG, FFEEDDC. Now you have a melody that seems to revolve around the scale of G - suppose it goes: BBGGCCA, BBGGF#F#G. (I changed the tune because in a test the tune won't exactly repeat in the new key unless you're very lucky!) The F#, which doesn't feature in the scale of C, should give you a pretty good clue that it's switched to the key of G. If the tune goes something like DDAAFFE, FFDDC#ED, you should be able to hear that it's gone into D minor. If the tune goes FFDDGGE, FFDDECD, it's still D minor even without the C#, because you'll also be listening to the chords, and you be able to hear that there's a minor feel rather than a major feel. It's far too complicated to try and work these things out mathematically because there's far more chance of making a simple mistake that throws the whole thing out. Your ear is the best guide and your ear is the thing you should be training. If all the above comes across as too complicated, then do a Kodaly course! Cyrilla will point you in the right direction. Violinia

I think i c what u mean now, but my problem now is that i always forget the first note/scale after the phrase is finished (so I can't really listen to c what the interval is)...but other than that i think i get ur advice. thnx, btw!

and another thing. especially for modulations in aural, i never seem to be able to trust my intuition based on what I hear...even when it's generally usually right. anyone know how to deal with that?

If you keep the tonic of the phrase in your head continually throughout the first phrase, it should still be there when the modulation occurs. Then it shouldn't be too hard to figure out the interval of the modulation.

I do know what you mean, though. I'm knocking on a bit age-wise, and when an aural excerpt is really long I've often forgotten the beginning by the time it gets to the end. I never used to have this problem so I think it's a short-term memory loss thing. Scary and I hope it isn't the beginning of something worse! Better keep doing the Guardian crossword and keep those neural pathways well-oiled! You too, maybe.

Violinia

QUOTE (tamsin @ Jul 16 2004, 10:59 AM)

How do you find a Kodaly course in Cornwall?

Um.....yes, it is a tricky one!

The British Kodaly Academy's Chairman lives in Sennen, though...not sure if she is teaching still.

It's a problem which the BKA are trying hard to address but there are not that many suitably trained and experienced Kodaly teachers around in all parts of the country.

So most of the courses are in London...

However, try the website (www.britishkodalyacademy.org) and if still no luck e-mail me privately and I'll arrange for you to be put on the mailing list, so you will receive details of all courses which are on in the next academic year.

Of course, if you can get enough people together to make a course financially viable, (minimum 10/12, I should think), contact the BKA and someone like myself would be more than happy to come and run a day's workshop!

QUOTE (Cyrilla @ Jul 16 2004, 02:52 PM)

QUOTE (tamsin @ Jul 16 2004, 10:59 AM) How do you find a Kodaly course in Cornwall? Um.....yes, it is a tricky one! The British Kodaly Academy's Chairman lives in Sennen, though...not sure if she is teaching still. It's a problem which the BKA are trying hard to address but there are not that many suitably trained and experienced Kodaly teachers around in all parts of the country. So most of the courses are in London... However, try the website (www.britishkodalyacademy.org) and if still no luck e-mail me privately and I'll arrange for you to be put on the mailing list, so you will receive details of all courses which are on in the next academic year. Of course, if you can get enough people together to make a course financially viable, (minimum 10/12, I should think), contact the BKA and someone like myself would be more than happy to come and run a day's workshop!

Tamsin - if you try to put a group together you can count me in - if you like! I'm in the South West. I could also see if anyone else I know would be interested. (Sorry, don't mean to butt in - but I'm very keen, a bit like the child in the classroom with it's hand up saying 'oh me, please!' )

I know what you mean, but I'm not sure if I'm in a position to do all the organising...

being a responsibility shirking teenager and that!

Plus the fact, is cost...

I mean, how much would a Kodaly course cost, particularly if we struggled to get the numbers together,

perhaps though, when I head off to college, I should check with the music department there, and see if they could organise something, paricularly if I could prove there was demand...

Oh dear, you've got me all hopeful and inspired now!

Hi, I took my Grade 8 a couple of weeks ago, and here's how I did it:
Well... if a major modulates to the dominant, it sounds like an inperfect cadence, it could still go back to the main tune quite easily. With to a subdominant, it sounds kind of changed, it couldn't go back to the theme.
As for going to minors, I believe the relative minor sounds like more of a change... that's all I can describe it as really.
Hope that helps...

QUOTE (tamsin @ Jul 16 2004, 06:15 PM)

I know what you mean, but I'm not sure if I'm in a position to do all the organising... being a responsibility shirking teenager and that! Plus the fact, is cost... I mean, how much would a Kodaly course cost, particularly if we struggled to get the numbers together, perhaps though, when I head off to college, I should check with the music department there, and see if they could organise something, paricularly if I could prove there was demand... Oh dear, you've got me all hopeful and inspired now!

Hey! Is this going to be a real possibility?

You can count me in too!!! Sounds great. I can offer a free venue - providing you don't mind meeting in a church in mid-Cornwall.... Should help to keep the cost down a bit.

sorry for being stupid or if I've missed the post, but what is a Kodaly course?

Meg - Zoltan Kodaly was a great Hungarian composer and educator who was committed to improving the standard of music education for all - initially in his own country. The level reached in Hungary has been so impressive that his ideas have spread to all corners of the globe; many countries now have their own Kodaly organisations (in the UK it's the British Kodaly Academy).

These organisations run courses for both teachers and amateur and professional musicians who want to learn about the approach - so that's what 'a Kodaly course' is!!

In a nutshell, it's 'musicianship through singing' and can be used from mothers-and-babies through to conservatoire level and beyond.

I wrote an article in the May issue of Libretto 2003 if you want to know a bit more!

Count me in! I'm in Dorset.

Very briefly (as I have visitors staying but didn't want to let opportunity slip by) I would be willing to try and organise this workshop. For those interested in participating, please send me a private e-mail (actually I don't know how you should do this and I don't have time right right now to look and see but I'm sure there will be a way. I'm not keen to give out my private email over the forum). I'm short for time at present (school holidays and I have children and guests!) but intend to email/speak to Cyrilla about this and hopefully we can make this workshop happen

QUOTE

please send me a private e-mail (actually I don't know how you should do this

You can send someone a private message by hitting the PM button at the bottom of the post.

Maggie

What about over in Belfast, since I'm moving there shortly.

We have 3 forum members from Belfast, I believe, but that's it

After hearing so many positive comments on Kodaly, I am interested to find out more about it. Could any one kindly point me to the right directly in Hong Kong?

Cheers,
Tannie

Tannie - I think 'Margrave of Brandenburg' found out about a summer course on another thread a while ago. I can only suggest trawling through some previous threads. Sorry not to be able to help more.

QUOTE (Cyrilla @ Jul 19 2004, 01:43 PM)

Tannie - I think 'Margrave of Brandenburg' found out about a summer course on another thread a while ago. I can only suggest trawling through some previous threads. Sorry not to be able to help more.

Thanks Cyrilla,

I found a Kodaly program offered by Acadamy of Performing Arts here in HK, but the program started yesterday already... and more of a problem is the lessons are during working hour - which is not possible for me... Anyway, I'll keep looking for any sources in HK.

Cheers,
Tannie

Oh dear - good luck in your continued search!

QUOTE (theDcomposer @ Jul 16 2004, 06:13 AM)

what do you listen for in each of the different modulations, and what does it sound like?

I wonder if anyone has compiled an anthology of very familiar pieces of music that include the various types of modulation you have to recognise in the G8 aural tests, so that you could get a mental image of them.

I'm afraid the modulation test is one of many where those of us with perfect pitch have a massive and totally unfair built in advantage.

A Kodály course is not the best for modulations.

Modulations test your sense of harmony, not your sense of pitch. Every week do 32 bars of harmony exercises which include modulations, then try all of them on the piano after you have finished. I guarantee after half a year identifying modulations is a piece of cake for you. What's more, you will score for your grade 8 theory too.

I am now studying using a Paris Conservatory textbook, and there are harmony questions involving modulations to very distant keys, e.g. C to F#, but if you keep on doing and listen to your own work you will be able to recognise any modulation.

QUOTE

A Kodály course is not the best for modulations

I've just come back from a Kodaly Summer School and we looked at modulations just yesterday. From just a short session I would say relative solfah would be an excellent way of understanding and recognising modulations - surely what you need here is a well-trained ear and an understanding of harmony and intervals, which is very much Kodaly's area.

Why do you think Kodaly isn't the best for modulations?

Violinia

QUOTE (wangchenwei @ Aug 15 2004, 01:15 PM)

A Kodály course is not the best for modulations.

Yes, I don't understand this comment either.

As Violinia says, Kodaly training trains your ear in all ways, including chords and harmony!

QUOTE

I'm afraid the modulation test is one of many where those of us with perfect pitch have a massive and totally unfair built in advantage.

Yes, I agree. I too have perfect pitch and I always found modulations so easy when I did exams. But I find it very difficult to teach modulations to pupils as I have never had to think about what a modulation "sounds like". I have come up with a sort of elimination method, i.e. hum the key-note all the way through and then see whether the piece has gone from major/minor to major/minor, does the key-note harmonise/clash with the final chord.

QUOTE

I wonder if anyone has compiled an anthology of very familiar pieces of music that include the various types of modulation you have to recognise in the G8 aural tests, so that you could get a mental image of them.

This would be very useful!