11 year old daughter is now grade 5 violin and after only 12 months is about to take her grade 4 piano. I understand however that she is unable to go beyond grade 5 without taking the relevant theory exam. The only problem is, she is at quite a demanding school accademically speaking, and fitting in both violin and now piano is quite time consuming, although she only spends about 1 hour a day between the two instruments, her homework takes up the rest of her spare time. She has gone through the first grade 1 theory workbook and is now progressing though the second with the help of the AB guide to Music Theory books, but progress is slow and there are times she doesn't quite understand certain sections. Her music teachers already have to go through aural excercises with her to cover exam syllabus for relevant grades, so don't feel I can bother them with it as there inevitably would be no time left for playing. How do others overcome this problem? She is not adverse to skipping grade exams out, but feel it could be quite a while before she is eligible to take another one. I know now she should probably have started preparation for the theory exam a while back, but until a few months ago was unaware that a theory exam needed to be taken. Any advice how to progress from here

Is there anything wrong with this? She's only 11! In my opinion whether students take Grade 5 Theory or Practical Musicianship, the things which are learnt are required for the practical higher grades. Learning is not about progressing as fast as possible through the exams. Sometimes a break is good - there's so much else to do besides exams.

David

If she can reach grade 4 piano after a year then she should be able to do grade 5 theory in a year too. She needs a teacher to guide her through what is needed and make sure she understands each topic. Either her violin or piano teacher should be able to help her with this. If necessary she could spend a little less time practising and more on theory to get grade 5 done as quickly as possible. What's the rush with practical grades anyway? She's only 11 - there's plenty of time and the sooner she does grade 5 theory she can go on.

I' ve had similar issues. My daughter( now 12) switched to Guildhall to do grade 6 as there was no requirement to have passed grade 5 theory.
We are still persevering with theory but the words head and brick wall spring to mind at times.
You might see whether there is a local music centre that offers group theory tuition.
good luck

It is clear that you want your daughter to progress onto the higher grades on the piano and violin. The immediate hurdle she faces is the Grade 5 theory requirement.

Thus, as noodle rightly advises, the piano and/or violin teacher will need to concentrate on this. I would have thought the violin teacher should be the one concentrating on the theory side as she has one more grade to go to reach Grade 5 piano.

At the age of 11, she shouldn't have problems coping with theory up to Grade 5 level.

I was ready to take my grade 5 on guitar this time last year, but my knowleadge of theory was nowhere near grade 5. So, instead of taking my practical and then learning theory to grade 5 standard, I forgot about grades altogether and focused on my playing in general and theory - spilting my hour lesson in to half an hour of theory and half an hour of playing. Now my playing is around grade 6/7ish and I'm going to be taking my grade 5 theory and practical in March.

If I where you I would forget about grades for a while and focus on theory - even if this means your daughter taking a brief break from playing - understanding theory is very important and can help with your playing, I know it has done for me .

I hear you. I live in Japan, where teachers rarely teach theory. It's a different system, so there is simply no way to get the instrumental teachers to do more than drip-feed on theory.

If your daughter has 30-45 minute lessons, it could be hard to fit in theory. Viohazard is something post grade 5 in violin, and just passed guitar grade 5 recently, and he's 12. His teachers are very keen for him to work on technique at this age. His progress in theory is slow, but every little helps. I can only suggest to keep plodding on. If your daughter plays piano, I think she is already in a better position than those who play treble clef instruments.

These are the options we've come up with (hoping to take grade 5 theory within 12-18 months, but he also has to take a formal exam in English before then):

1) Work through the theory workbooks and old exam papers, from Grade 1, learning all the foreign words thoroughly at each level. Viohazard is slowly doing this.

2) Buy Musition software for self-teaching of theory (I'm impressed with the sister product, Auralia, so even though it is expensive, I think it would be useful enough to justify the expense).

3) Cut back to fortnightly guitar lessons (Viohazard's teacher offers this option) and asking a local piano teacher if she would take Viohazard for 1-2 lessons per month in theory (and piano). Outrageous as this may sound to teachers reading my post, she has done this short-term in the past and if the arrangement doesn't suit her, she can always refuse.

4) Son Viohazard also goes to an academically demanding school - not ideal for kids with heavy practice schedules, but can't be helped. We worked really hard last year on keeping a study diary up to date, so that homework etc never gets out of hand (it does, of course, but there's hope!). If he wants to concentrate on music at pre-university level, all the more reason to make sure that he maintains his academic standard now. While some school music teachers can be very rude to parents, I think it's worth trying to discuss matters when study and music obviously clash - it can be helpful to get a general music teacher's idea of musical priorities. Viohazard's school music teacher was extremely helpful about offering him opportunities at school to lighten the music burden at home.

5) Viohazard has a long commute, and those small Dover orchestral scores offer a good chance to start studying harmony. So far, he's learned a lot by analyzing the music he is currently playing too (as far as he is able, of course).

I've taught lots of kids Gd 5 theory as a crash course in about 6 lessons of an hour each. Some needed a few more sessions than this but none more than 10. It's a lot easier if they already know something about key signatures of course.
But for an average kid it's not a big deal to get through the exam this way - find the right person to help your daughter through it and it will take weeks not months.

We've got similar problems too. Our daughter is taking Grade 5 Flute and Recorder possibly in the spring session. We have started looking at the Jazz Flute syllabus as it seems likely she could achieve this before the Theory. My daughter attends theory classes (but they are not wonderful) run by our Music Service and her Recorder Teacher helps but it's the same senario of sacrificing lesson time.

You probably won't need to worry to much about it if the main problem is the vocab lists. From the papers i did before the Gr.5 last year there only seemed to be two or three marks in each paper for definitions and even then quite a few you could make a decent guess at from the english e.g.risoluto-resolute etc.
I managed to get my brothers piano teacher to help me with the grade five theory which probably saved a bit of time even if he did insist on going through all of the grade material at each level. I can sympathise with having to fit it in around everything though i was sitting it a week or two after my Highers were over so the post exam break was postponed a little . If there are isolated sections she is having problems with you could probably just ask in the theory forum. The board are also publishing exemplar answer schemes for the past papers so if you asked her to do a few at each grade and then as many as possible before the exam you should cover everything you need to.
Good luck

Hello, Tracey. I am glad that your daughter is making very good progress on two instruments as well as working hard at school. I quite understand what you are saying re: pressure of time.

I should think that your daughter has quite a lot of theoritical knowledge without knowing so, as she is quite experineced - so I don't think she will take too long to prepare for Grade 5 theory. Majority of it is actually more like Maths.

I tend to agree with previous writers that her instrumental teachers may be the best people to guide your daughter through this. Your daughter's school may be running theory group lessons (which I do at mine), and this could be a solution as there are many pupils in a similar situation as your daughter. Working through the work-books with a help of AB guidebook is actually rather "boring" and time-consuming for 11 years old, I think. And as you rightly pointed out that the books don't always explain well (sorry, Associated Board!), especially without hearing exapmles played at the keyboard. You need a real "human" to make theory work, I think.

Which part of the UK do you live in?
Maybe someone here can help?

We have the same problem - See the advice folks gave me on the thread titled - Grade 8. We don't like to do exams and prefer to concentrate on technique and performance of wider repertoire. Sevcik and Kreutzer are absolutely essential stuff she can do in the foreseeable future or else, horrors! One can still get a G8 distinction and yet be regarded by a violin professor to have cr... technique! (But then we need in due course a distinction for scholarship purposes. In fact, our girl took the only exam she has ever taken primarily to get her AYM award. It requires a distinction as an absolute minimum for its application.)

In brief, you can choose one of these options:

1. Forget exams for a while. Concentrate on technique, etudes, etc.
2. Try practical musicianship.
3. Try DIY it or a crash course like a week-long summer course on G5 theory.
4. Do a Trinity or other exam which does not require G5 theory exam.
5. Bite the bullet and do it now but slowly and gently with her piano teacher.

Best wishes,
Tess

I agree absolutely with Tess. Plus I would add that doing some theory now with at least one of her practical teachers will help her if she ever wants to do Music at GCSE or A level. In our experience the theory elements of those (though not that difficult for somebody with ABRSM grades) are not always that well taught at school (this of course varies from school to school and teacher to teacher) and in our case the extra theory tuition on topics such as composition has been extremely helpful.

My d's piano teachers use (on average) 10 minutes or so of each lesson for theory. At age 11 she was having 40 min lessons and now she has 1 hour.

6 hrs!! How I wish you live in east London. I honestly cannot help my girl. My son is really unpredictable and very demanding.

My daughter took grade 5 practical at 10 yrs old last December. At this point we started thinking about theory. We found that getting as far as she had in practical meant she knew pretty much everything she needed upto about grade 3 theory already. She too was very busy at school so we made no further progress until the summer. We then set a target of the November session for Grade 5 and taught her 80% ourselves using a combination of the AB guide and "Take 5 and Pass first time". We asked her piano teacher to cover the bit we couldn't do which was composition (although "Take 5" gives some reasonable guidance on that). It will be harder if you haven't got much musical knowledge yourself. I would suggest arranging some extra sessions with a music teacher, perhaps in the holidays, if that is the case.

The main thing is, it has been really positive for her playing to take time doing repertoire, studies etc. around grade6/7 level. Her technique and tone is much better and her sight reading is comfortably up to the required level for grade 6 as a result of playing so many more pieces. She will be doing grade 6 next term and it is really nice to pick up the new pieces from the list and be able to focus on interpretation and performance rather than just getting the notes out. In the end I expect she will probably take the exam having spent a lot less time on the specific exam pieces and will feel fresher and more enthusiastic about them as a result.

I think it is a mistake to think there is nowhere to go if you cannot do another exam imediately. It is always possible to skip a grade later if things take a bit longer anyway.

Thanks for all the advice given. I should make it clear however, that I do not actually care too much about grades personally, but seem to be given the impression by many that these so called grade certificates are the yard stick by which your ability is measured. The reason the music theory is bothering us is not just because of being unable to go any further with practical exams, but that we were unprepared for it, having no musical knowledge ourselves, and no teacher has ever mentioned it before. Daughter has got to the point where she is getting herself upset because she is coming across so many terms she doesn't understand, ie. she always plays harmonic scales so when in grade 2 theory practice book there was a section where knowledge of melodic scales was required, she was unable to tackle it, and we were unable to help. Apart from this, I feel a slight urge to get some of these obstacles out of the way while she is still young because as she gets older her work load from school is only going to increase, making theory and grades an added pressure to contend with. Having read all advice we have now had a word with her piano teacher and extended her lesson to 45 minutes which he will dedicate 20 mins to music theory and anything else that is bothering her in a relaxed manner. As mentioned by many of you, there is no rush, but then again we don't want to neglect these things and then have it all to do later on.

You are so right I'm sure many people give up instruments after Grade 5 because they are bogged down with year 9 SATs or GCSE work and can't find the time to tackle the theory. I think you have made a good decision.

Sounds like a sensible plan!

Nor are they aware of the alternatives to G5 theory (jazz, practical musicianship or a change of board).

Even if they're not working towards an exam (theory or practical), the pressure of schoolwork can still impact the amount of time available. I've given several lessons which have begun with the pupil in question saying "I haven't done much/any practice this week because of SATs/mocks/exams/a huuuuge piece of coursework."

To be honest, grade 5 theory is something that can be learnt without being understood. I took my grade 5 theory when I was 12/13 and I didn't understand a good half of it. My teacher taught me through a combination of Theory is Fun, past ABRSM theory papers and being forced into doing it! Admittedly, I absolutely hated the theory because of all the hassle with my teacher but I passed first time with 79%. Since then, my music studies at GCSE and A level have consolidated it, so rather than just being able to do the theory, I understood it.

Either enter her for another board or just keep plugging away at it and you'll get there in the end. Maybe Music lessons in school will help to consolidate her learning?

That could well have been a lot of waffle but I know what I mean!

I think that quite a lot of people do that which is a pity.

I so agree - I was one of them!

she always plays harmonic scales so when in grade 2 theory practice book there was a section where knowledge of melodic scales was required, she was unable to tackle it
Just for the record, both forms of the minor scale are not required for grade 2 theory - you have a choice of which form you do. But I agree that mention of the unfamiliar one can be offputting. I do find that the way in which some of the theory workbooks (AB) are set out and the new information presented is not always terribly enlightening for the pupil. I'm currently helping a struggling 12 year old to understand the keys /scales needed for this grade, and despite having played all of them quite fluently, answers to real questions are frequently muddled. The rest of the work is fine. We were making charts last week to try to get a more complete picture. I will see if it helped later on this week !

Yes - I think many students pass grade 5 theory without really understanding what they are doing.

When I was doing G2 Theory, I found a book called How to Read Music in 10 Lessons by Terry Burrows was really helpful. Particuarly the chapter on Keys and Scales - I thought their diagrams of intervals and the Circle of Fifths was more understandable than the AB book. (If your student does get it, it should have a CD with it)

This link is also helpful for students - for the Circle of Fifths, for instance, just click on C and scroll down.

I was just thinking - I also managed to get to Grade 7 piano and pass 'O' Level Music without understanding 99% of what I was doing...

Huh and you said you couldn't play piano!

I can't!

The Grade 7 was awarded by the Associated Board of the Les Dawson Schools of Music..

Sorry, but I really must step in here.........Cyrilla plays the piano beautifully actually.....over the two years that I studied in her musicianship classes there were a number of times when she played the accompaniments to some of the pieces we were singing and she was fab!

Les Dawson by the way, demonstrated amazing skill in playing the piano the way he did just to get laughs and to make diliberate mistakes sound 'authentic' is a skill without question.

So........if you came from the Les Dawson school of piano playing, I reckon you've come from a good school!!

I've got one of those too.

I played my favourite Les Dawson piece today, Soldier's March by Schumann. A little pupil was playing the flute part of a flute and piano version, and collapsed in giggles after her two bars rest when I was supposed to play in octaves, and hit different wrong notes with both hands. Why can't I play that piece?

Ah, Andante, I SO recognise this scenario! Somewhat relieved it's not just me this happens to...When I first started teaching I used to have to play the piano for assemblies - I would practise for ages the night before, then be crippled by nerves and land beautifully on the wrong chord at the end of the introduction *oh, the shame*

HK, it's very kind of you to say these things but I'm not sure I agree with you! I think I play quite musically, just not with all the right notes in the right order...

I agree Les Dawson was actually very clever. Mine aren't deliberate mistakes like his!

Hi,
Have you heard about All-In-One to Grade 5 by Rachel Billings (a new publication). This is a fast-track approach to learning music theory which sounds ideal for your daughter. Theory is learnt through an understanding of simple rules and patterns. Also fun with helpful mnemonics and illustrations etc. Rhinegold recently wrote a very good review about this book in its Music journal and am using it with my students. Can be purchased at www.aaronpublications.co.uk (your can also read the full review on-line)

Ann

Hi!

I'm a music teacher with two children who are not at your daughters stage yet (they're quite a bit younger). However, as I know the necessity for theory later on, we've already started on the early basics (son will take grade 1 this term).

However, point I'm actually getting to, is that we use the school holidays to learn their theory - they don't do any (or very little) in school term time, because life is just too busy! Is this a project you could look at in the summer break? It may well be that you find a teacher who is happy to do some theory teaching over the summer holidays. Otherwise, it would be a good idea to start with the lower grades and work through books/past papers. I teach fast track grade 5 theory and we start with the grade 1 and 2 books, which we get through very quickly, and then move on to the higher grade books, again aiming to make fast progress, focussing on subject areas in which the candidate is less familiar. I do this with the aim that the candidate has a reasonable understanding of theory, ie not just gaining a ticket through to grade 6 practical. However, I have to be honest, with some of the students who I have to really fast track, I do wonder wether the knowledge has been gained thoroughly and will stick. This is why I'm trying to make it a less painful process for my own children!

ME TOO! (but grade 7 oboe, not piano). I'm not convinced my GCSE music teacher understood 99% of what he was doing either! I didn't actually fill in any of the gaps 'til I went to music college as a mature postgrad. And even now I think some of the filler hasn't dropped out in places - especially regarding my facility at the keyboard.


On the topic of what to do with an 11 year old who wants to progress whilst slowly preparing her theory, I am preparing a grade 6 student at the moment and we're planning to do a 'mock exam' rather than the real thing - we'll prepare as normal and then another local teacher has agreed to act as 'examiner' so that my student has a goal for which to prepare. The plan is that this buys us an extra little while to get the theory done and we progress (hopefully) to grade 7 about a year later. We've extended her lesson from 45 minutes to an hour so that we can do 15minutes theory in the middle of the lesson. Would this sort of idea work in your case?

Wow - This thread has been picked up from 2 years ago - how time flys!!! We extended daughters piano lesson by 15 minutes in the end to enable theory to be taught gradually and am pleased to say she passed with distinction last year. She has since managed to achieve a distinction for grade 6 piano and taking grade 7 violin this term - fingers crossed that the current trend continues!

I think theory should really be introduced when pupil is of grade 3 standard, if a young pupil, or from day one if an older pupil, and be learnt over a good period of time rather than crammed just to pass the theory exam as a means to an end to take advanced practical exams. My daughters playing and understanding of what she was playing improved a lot during this period of time, and only wish we had been aware of what was expected earlier.

I don't really remember doing theory as such before grade 5, it was all incorporated into my violin/piano lessons. Once I'd done my grade 4 (at 10) I spent 2 terms doing an extra 15 mins of theory to cover the extra topics such as transposition and composition and I did my grade 5 when I was 11. It meant that by the time it came to doing grade 6 (at 13) I had already done the theory 'ages ago' so I was lucky that theory was never a problem with preventing me from taking grades.

Try All-In-One to Grade 5 by Rachel Billings. Very good, fast-track approach. Found at www.aaronpublications.co.uk

Hi Maya3,

My daughter (at 10) has just done her violin grade 4 exam. She is now enjoying playing lots of different pieces as well as playing in NCO regionals and a couple of local string orchestras. She didn't intend doing grades but ended up being tempted to do 4 and now grade 5 is being mentioned. Do you have to do grade 5 practical or is it just grade 5 theory? I am thinking that if she was able to get theory under her belt we could forget about grades for now. I also wondered as I see that you're grade 8 violin how your exam journey worked out and at what age, did you do 6 then 8 or all the grades. Someone said the other day that really you only need 5 and 8.