I was wondering - other than for scholarship purposes as the AYM, MBF, etc, invariably ask for a minimum of a recent distinction before an award - are there any good reasons to do G8 early?

At RAM, under the Saturday course, the juniors do not start G5 ABRSM theory in any case, until school year 8 (so one can do G8 in year 9 or thereafter) although VN and in particular, one of her contemporaries from Haberdasher's thought a G8 distinction will definitely help them get a (school) music scholarship and/or orchestral leadership "for sure" in some independent schools. It seems a waste of money to pay for G5 theory lessons outside RAMPA. Besides, surely, a head of music is not so stupid as to be unable recognise ability/talent without any theory pass or any exam grade?

Any other reasons/comments?

Thanks.

My personal opinion is that learning theory should be paralell with learning the practical. Very few teachers appear to do this, with possibly the exception of piano teachers. This is in my experience.

If your child is capable of taking the G5 theory at an earlier age - all 4 of mine did them by primary school year 6, then definitly go ahead. Talk to her music teacher, explain what your plans are and get him/her to work with you. I certainly do not think it a waste of money. If you have plans, your child displays talent and you wish to support her then it is an investment! What my kids did say is that they often ended up 'teaching' their classmates theory and frequently in the junior orchestra they were the only ones with that solid back up in theory. "what does that wiggle, squiggle, dot mean?". There is that old Louis Armstrong joke that with little or no theory he thought 'pp' meant 'pound plenty'! Personally I am all for continuing until G6 Theory!

In the case of taking the G8 (& getting a distinction) by Year 9, maturity does count. Further its about widening and exploring the repetoire not just ploughing through grades.

In the case of the Heads of Music (I presume you mean at Secondary level) recognising the difference, well they get hundreds of applicants and its by the application in front of them they can get an idea of the standard to expect at the actual audition. Our local comprehensive has five precious music places and they come from all over London, hundreds of girls with G3 levels whose parents have sworn they are at G7 or some such, hoping and hoping. Its just a way of sifting out those who really havent got a chance. The independent schools with music scholarships just have raised the levels because they know they can. G8 with distinction - have you seen the signatures on these Forums! If the child displays talents good enough to get one of these coveted music scholarships and thats what the parents and child wants, then go for it, but be prepared with a back up plan as these scholarships are few and hundreds of very talented children going for them.

I try not to be judgemental, when my youngest child did not get into the local school because we had moved one street out of the catchment area and her older sister had left the school, I became hysterical (all my socialist EOP teacher training went out the window in the case of MY child!), I found myself asking about the five precious music scholarships! (she got in eventually off the waiting list!).

However Tess you have to talk to her music teacher and together you decide where you want to go with this.

Hang on Tess, doesn't VN have a competitive entrance exam coming up? Will that affect Grade 8 plans, or is the idea to get Grade 5 theory out of the way before entrance exam study starts?

...confused!...

Viohazard is taking the Grade 5 theory study sloowwly, with the hope that he learns it extra thoroughly! .

Thanks for the advice.

VN's teacher said the private schools will be falling over themselves to have her (in music, as she really does play amazingly well for one who has had tuition for just over 2 yrs) BUT school music awards aren't half as precious as AYM or MBF cash in hand awards, all ears. Besides I'm personally a state school product (albeit admittedly a selective one) and do not regard a state education as inferior altho one has to admit that music provisions in state schools can be quite pathetic if one lives outside Camden.

Ayshah, I've already spoken to RAMPA and I believe they must know that she's plyg G7 level but no matter, the policy is clear - ALL primary students are not offered G5 theory. Not even if she's abt to do a lower std not G8 but a G6 exam in the future. VN's teacher does not seem to agree with this - He said it's "odd" as at RCM (and elsewhere) learning theory is in fact, encouraged to be paralell with learning the practical. On one hand, I tend to agree with RAM and don't want to rush her. No need. On the other hand, it seems grossly unfair for charities and others to judge her by her old grade which she took only after barely 9 months of lessons just because such institutions are inundated with far too many applicants.

It reminds me of a notice I saw today on a notice board which to one's surprise, states something like due to there being far too great the number of responses, it has now been decided that juniors cannot enter a mixed concerto competition unless one is (effectively) 18 years old!

I'm tempted to let things be as I'm far too busy to help her (will be on a special needs kids training course soon) unless someone we respect on the forum actually comes along and tell us that we're pulling the child back. But then there are days when I wonder - Are we doing the right thing? It feels like a dilemma at times especially when we realise that more money can mean more music, a summer course or more tuition time or even better, the privilege of taking up a second instrument.

The only reason I even bothered to take grade 8, having sworn to give up all exams after grade 5. I was being rejected left right and centre, while my peers, who were plaing at a lower level, but had a piece of paper claiming otherwise, weren't being rejected. I took the exam, I got co-ledaership of a national orchestra, a scholarship, a free violin and money from EMI. It does make in difference in that respect, bearing in mind that just the month before passing grade 8 I was rejected from a "grade 6-8" competition and a less competitive grant scheme.

VN probably knows a chunk of theory already, without realising it. How about picking up a really simple guide and just seeing if she fancies reading it? Nothing that can get confused and form bad habits, but reading bass clef and ledger lines with ease, reading note values, making note values equal a certain number of beats, maybe experiment with composing simple 4 bar tunes on the piano and then writing them down on manuscript paper and so on. Then when the chance to take theory at RAM comes up, VN will get through it nice and quickly.

I wouldn't recommend leaving grade 8 too long or the pieces get SO boring. It's important to be confident with the scales and aurals well in advance - the aurals involve some music history and theory so that might take longer for someone younger, and the scales need good double-stopping. How is VN's sight-reading? I would assume that these are, for most young players, the aspects which need attention, because they tend to develop by taking theory lessons and studying GCSE or A level music.

Good luck!

I'm not going to comment on the wiseness, benefits or disadvantages of doing grade 8 early here. All I will say is that if she does desperately require grade 8 for something, how about considering one of the other boards without the theory requirement? If she's going to learn the theory later anyway, and knows enough to play for now, then it shouldn't matter.

Bo, you are spot on and you are one of many "paperless victims" among those teachers/students who prefer having more rounded musicianship and a wider repertoire prior to taking exams. It seems a lot more fun to learn more pieces each term and perform them than revise the same old ones beyond 2/3 months.

She can SR now though SR and theory beyond G5 must be hard! On the other hand, a lovely bubbly G4 piano/cello boy suddenly interrupted his mum's conversation flow with - PA's (Primary Academy's) theory class is "super-basic" and his mum and I replied almost simultaneously, "Really?" and with a sparkling lovable laughter he went earnestly, "Really!"

VN still prefers to play by ear and I don't blame her since it seems so natural for that age. Fortunately, she knows her music history as the history of practically anything (including the history of maths, science and scientists!) is music to her ears.

Thanks, AP for your practical advice. I think it's a good idea. We will suggest this option to VN's teacher this term. I have a feeling he might say to her - DIY your own theory! You can do it! Poor girl. Was told by VN that he has a habit of saying to his students - "You can do it!" - no matter how hard something is, no matter what, when or why...

No, she hasn't started any G8 piece yet, Bo. No issue of getting stale there. I don't want to rush her. (Besides she wants very much to perform in the NLMF in April so she must play "down" not "up" as a G6 or G7 piece performed impeccably in a first class polished manner (musically and technically) is a better performance than a G8 piece played reasonably well. She probably won't stand a chance against her older mates who are also entering the same age-range class (it's their second tries). They are now playing G8 pieces and have learnt from Suzuki since ages 3 and 4 respectively, so however tempting it is, we must try our best not to compare, much less try to be like them. In any event it's foolish to make/encourage comparisons bearing in mind that she has shown herself to be quite competitive recently! NLMF will be a healthy experience and we have agreed to treat it no different than a concert performance other than to aim for one goal of getting a distinction standard/mark from the adjudicator.)

By the way, Bo, did EMI ever ask whether your G8 distinction was AB's or did they ask which board it was? Many old-fashioned teachers swear by AB and nothing else!

Tess

No, they didn't, although I think they asked for the exact mark so that would have given it away. I don't think these loan schemes and grant schemes mind so much who the exam is with, but you're right to say that some are less impressed by boards other than AB - probably because they don't require, for example, the same range of scales (Trinity) or theory (Trinity) or whatever else. I'd stick with AB just to avoid such prejudices, since there's no rush to get VN through grade 8. Besides, it's a good motivation to get her learning all the supplementary studies early.

Tess, I'm sure she could DIY her own theory, but with other entrance exams to prepare for this year I think doing a different board would be a better idea. Or give practical musicianship a try instead.

Our experience was that all the London Independent schools auditioned all the applicants, so heard them play, which is likely to carry far more weight than any grades. They also took references from the children's teachers and so had a a good idea of what the child was like. Auditions were all very thorough, (but friendly). It seemed that the schools would get a very good idea of the child's playing regardless of what grade they have. They were particularly interested in the child's involvement in orchestras or other musical activities.

Furthermore, once she gets to secondary school there are often grade 5 theory classes on offer, which take the pain out of the whole procedure ....

DIY theory? No way! I'm going on a 3-month intensive course (myself).

Apologies, Bo, what are supplementary studies? Do you mean the Sevcik and Kreutzer stuff? Hmm, smart of them to ask for your mark to check you are not a borderline 130 (demanding test) or with a board they don't approve.

Secondary school theory? Might as well bit the bullet now. My friend told me yesterday that at secondary schools, all instrumental tuition is generally free for music scholars but that does not include theory fees.

I have just discussed with VN who said she prefers a summer course (something fun all at one go) but that is subject to what her teacher will say next week when terms starts. He may know better. Be it a Trinity exam or a summer course special.

Thank you all very much for your helpful advice.

DIY theory would definitely be an option if she wants to get it done now - I did my Grade 5 DIY (with my teacher marking the odd piece for me) and it worked out pretty nicely. I know VN is academically gifted too, so I suspect she'd find it quite easy - theory's quite an academic subject in general.

If she did do Grade 5 theory now and passed well, would RAMPA still make her do Grade 5 theory classes or would she have the option to do something else/more advanced theory in that time-slot? The only reason I might advise not doing Grade 5 now (if she feels ready, wants to do it and can put the work in) is if she was going to be forced to put the work in all over again - if that was going to happen, it might be better looking at something else now and doing the theory later.

We have just received our 8 yr old daughter's grade 4 piano result, 141/150. Having acheived grade 2 (Dec05) with 140 and grade 3 (July06) with 144 , we beleive she is doing well. We talked to her piano teacher and we all agreed that she will not do any exam for now, but concentrate on widening her repertoire and work on the theory. We don't think exams completely represent a person's musical ability, but it is the widely recognized yardstick. But we do think to be a better musician, a good understanding of theory is necessary .For that reason and to enable her to sit exams at a higher grade, she will just have to pass her theory exam.

Just asked VN's teacher who said that G5 theory would be quite easy for her and is good to do practical and theory together but then he's also equally happy to let her take a Trinity exam even tho he believes that some music charities regard AB as being more respectable.

Will mull on this.

EDIT
In the meantime IF anyone knows a FUN theory teacher based in east London or willing to travel there, please PM me, OK?

Thanks, everyone.

Tess

Slightly confused where does it say you need gr 8 to get an AYM or MBF award. We applied for both awards last year for both children when they were only grade 5/6. We got rejected from AYM so we applied for the MBF within days of the closing date for both children. The middle one got £800 for a new cello, the eldest got nothing even though his last examination with TG was 299/320. We applied for different awards for both children.

As they both play more than one instrument we will probably apply again for more money to fund the other instruments.

No.2. has just got grade 6 piano with high honours at 9yrs and is already grade 6 on cello but I feel that he needs to mature more before taking grade 7/8 and grow!! He is still loving percussion and kit too. He is amazingly talented but I don't think he would want to be musician when he leaves school. In fact I don't think any of my kids will take up a music career.

No.1. is now aiming for grade 7 trumpet in the summer before he leaves primary school, his violin has now trailed behind. He is definitely more natural with the brass playing and shows more interest in big band music.

I dont think there are any advantages of taking grade 8 early and definitely not before the age of 12. I do think AB gr8 is more respected but if you score high at Guildhall and Trinity then does it really matter.

As for gr 5 theory the boys crammed gr1-3 in 3 weeks and took gr3 theory in Nov. and got 94 and 100. Tempted to let them cram gr4/5 over the next month and get gr5 out the way before the Y6 SAT but not sure if it will be too much to learn.

What sort of grant are looking for? a new violin or fees?

Just a vague wonder... would there be any point in VN doing G8 with say TG as a sort of "practice G8" - or even G7 - so that she has the bit of paper, and doesn't need the theory. Then if she wishes at a later date to take the AB exam, then she can. If she can leave it till a stage where she can learn the exam pieces to a good standard quickly then it would also avoid the "mum these pieces are so boring" thing. Even a G6 exam would give her that "bit of paper" beyond her last one (wasn't that G3?) to prove that she has attained a higher standard, and I'm inclined to think that with 2 years' tuition and at such a young age to have achieved even a very good G6 standard will make her stand out. Then G8 could be left till she has done the theory and is ready to tackle the pieces/scales etc with ease.

Young cellist at the Sat. music school I worked for for a year took her G8 cello at the Oxford Cello School and got over 141 despite shaky aurals due to being well beyond the level and being able to relax/show off in the exam (also just a very talented player I must add!) - she didn't take the exam as soon as she could she took it when it was within her capabilities and she could really do something with it. And so 141 is always going to go before her into auditions etc.

Don't know, just my too-tired-to-be-alive ramblings

ps: fumpybabes - I notice Tess said "a recent distinction" not "a recent G8 distinction" so maybe that's where the confusion lies?

As someone who was looking at the relevent website page only yesterday, by coincidence, I can confirm that for AYM applications for 07/08 accademic year they ask for a grade result taken since August '05 and it needs to be a distinction. It does not need to be grade 8 (but obviously the grade needs to be such that for the age it indicates unusual ability). They also ask for last exam result in the second study instrument (and a space to fill in 3rd study). They do theoretically accept other references instead of grades but the overall tone is that grade distinctions are a first level filter in most cases.

Wouldn't the fact of having got a junior academy place demonstrate unusual talent?
As far as I'm aware you can't just go there because you like playing.

Frumpybabes, Sarah is spot on! First, we want her to be a rounded musician so we have concentrated on repertoire, technique and performance instead of exam pieces/grades.

Secondly, you don't need a G8 at all so a G6 will do fine in my view after 2 yrs of work. But you do need a "recent" distinction to get it (she has had a generous AYM award before in the past for her G3 so that's how we know). However, since she's now playing G7 pieces, her teacher won't let her reverse and do a G5 exam. ANY exams post- G5 (in order to access a distinction if possible) will DEFINITELY need G5 theory beforehand but I think AP's suggestion is a very good one! If we basically go thr some G5 papers with her during the holiday in Aug/Dec when we might have some consistency/time and she then feels confident (she's quite proud and wants at least a merit ), then she can do the theory paper later. If not, we can still do the TRINITY exam, thereafter. Get it now?

Sbhoa, I have never thought of it that way, I must admit. (It's just that there are SO many talented kids around nowadays maybe 200 in RAM alone, like her and quite honestly, sbhoa, the charities will give their money to those who have proven themselves by the exam route rather than anything else. Give me a kid who LOVES playing, is very self-motivated and has strong self-discipline plus a really good teacher - hey presto, another VN equivalent! Hence the filter. Earplugs is spot on, too.)

Thanks to EVERYONE SO MUCH for all the patience and the helpful responses we got (both PMs and here).

DELETED.

No need to hurry. Will try and sort this issue out come Sept 2007.