Hi all,

I'm a 20 yr old student at University and I only had access to a piano when I was 17, although I had been making VERY slow progress without one beforehand (had to go to school practice rooms and neighbours' house to practice - although this didn't do much good). As soon as I got one I whizzed through Grades 1,2 and 3 in a year, because I felt I had so much to catch up on, yet in hindsight that was probably the wrong thing to do. I tried to do Grade 4 practical and Grade 5 theory at the same time as my A-Levels - I passed the theory but failed the practical, although I did take it again in the next session and got a merit.
As a result, my learning experience was very 'bitty', I've always had my education to think of first. When I went away to university I tried to take it up again, plus starting the violin from beginners' level, but my teachers were all Royal Northern College graduates and kept moving away - as a result I had 2 piano teachers and 3 violin teachers in a year-absolutely ridiculous, no stability or anything AND I had my studies to tackle - incidently I'm doing a joint degree which means my mind is split fourway between the instruments and the studies. I tried so hard to make it work - I bought an old piano for my student house, my own cheap Zeller violin and paid for lessons out of my own pocket - hard enough when students are notoriously in debt anyway. Despite this, it wasn't working because of my studies and instability at this time of my life - each year I am changing residence, which is no good to cart a piano round after you (far too expensive and impractical) and teachers and as a consequence I wasn't getting anything done. The future looks bleak - I am living abroad in Spain next year and the year after that in University Halls (non-starters in terms of practising - plus it is my final year). Music for me has therefore, against my will, died a death.
To cap it all, this music business is ruining the relationship I have with my boyfriend. His mother is a music teacher and he learned piano and violin from the age of 6 - even being awarded a Music scholarship at his school and achieving excellent Grade 8s in both instruments. Naturally, I have become hurt and jealous - he deserts me every week to go to a high-standard orchestra which I would love to enjoy myself but simply cannot. It is a daily nightmare to be reminded of what I cannot do and have failed to achieve musically in the person you love most. I am so embarassed about my low ability as an adult beginner I cannot share music with him, and nobody else is interested because adult beginners in this world are not taken seriously OR catered for in terms of orchestras and performing.

So you see, I am stuck in a rut. I desperately want to progress and thrive in a stable, constant musical environment where it is not just a fringe activity but an intensive subject. It's so depressing that my circumstances don't allow this - I am not in one place for long, I am too old and insignificant to everyone else, no-one wants to hear my music. Listening to it has become painful, I am always thinking how LONG it would take me to even begin thinking about playing certain pieces, and how wasted my childhood was.

Please help me - I feel so alone.

Masicana, don,t be so depressed. I started to learn flute when I was 20 years old. I know many people started to learn piano when they are 40!!So, you are the younger one. You should do is, practise more!! I am an university student too, I understand you are so hard to learn piano and attend the university lessons at one time, but you must do that.

Remember, you are not alone. My English is not very good, but I want to tell you, many people is harder than you in learning music. I am the one of them, I know you are too. Anyway, try your best and practise more. Use you time properly, practise piano instead of depressed.

Hi Musicana,
Can I suggest you go to the Adult beginners forum?
You will find others there who may share some of your problems and frustrations.

and by the way, you're not old.
I'm old. I've been teaching for twenty-plus years.
You have your whole life ahead of you.
Enjoy your time in Spain, and if it's not possible to hire one, put piano on hold for a while.
You have a head start if you've already passed four grades.
Some of my students began learning in their fifties! and you'll meet many other people on these forums who started much later than you.

You know - music doesn't die a death - it will be there waiting for you when you are able to pick it up again.

Maggie

At the age of 20 I think you're very young to start talking about how old you are! (You're a lot younger than me anyway!). If you want to carry on with piano I suggest you get a good quality portable digital piano. If you're moving from country to country you'll just have to accept that you won't have a long term teacher for a while. I also suggest that you don't worry about trying to become a virtuoso immediately (at least until you finish your course) but _do_ keep playing at some level. (Otherwise you'll regret it when you get to my age!) Doing two instruments at the same time sounds like it's way too much for you right now. Grade 4 isn't that low level - and if you keep playing I'm sure you'll continue making progress. Playing with other people at a similar level would probably also give you some encouragement. Why not advertise around your University for ~grade 4 level flutists/violinists and play duets with them? If you're interested in pop/rock, that isn't so technically demanding usually and can be a lot of fun - you could look for other people to do that with.

You might also want to talk with someone about your loneliness and depression as that may be a deeper problem.

Good luck!

Why not take up jazz piano instead? You'd need to find out if you liked jazz first, but if you listen to some and find you do, why not go that route? You obviously haven't got the time to devote enough to achieving grade 8's in two instruments, so if you really do long to be as proficient as your boyfriend, either examine why you feel that way, or decide to become proficient at something he can't do!

I've got some close friends who are seriously brilliant professional classical musicians - way out of my league in their technique, achievements etc, but I can play jazz and they can't! So when I'm with them I don't feel inadequate at all - in fact one of them even asked me for a jazz lesson recently!

But perhaps you should also look at why it bothers you to such a degree - surely your boyfriend likes you for who you are, not your musical pyrotechnics, and so he should. And anyway, you're in the middle of a degee in a different subject to music, presumably, so how can you be expected to have the time to reach high standards on instruments as well? Surely he must know that...

Another thing - what's music about anyway? Surely it's about enjoyment and self-expression, not a narrow world of competition and one-upmanship. Enjoy what you can do musically, improve as and when you can (you could always get a keyboard with the right-sized keys for when you move around), and most importantly, try not to worry about all this - music isn't and has never been a race.

And if you still long to be a top classical player, wait till you've finished your degree and then settle somewhere and go for it! Goodness, 20 is incredibly young - I'm 53 and still trying to get better on the violin!!!

Good luck

Violinia

Thankyou, it's good to know there are people out there who understand. It isn't so much the being an adult beginner that bothers me - more the opportunities are not available. I love and enjoy musc so much, and I'm certainly not in it for the competition or one-upmanship, but it is so very hard because I feel I have so much to give to the musical world and I'm not being allowed to give it, and the fact that it is a very expensive thing to keep up, especially when you are young and haven't much money. You are right, it's not a race, but what it should be is the chance to let yourself flourish and put one hundred percent effort into it and enjoy what you do - but the impracticalities don't allow this.

If you really want to do it, you can do it. I know there's more time for all this when you're at school, and you may be feeling you've missed that opportunity, but after you've finished your degree you will be able to make the time somehow! You'll have to manage your time cleverly but you can do it. A friend of mine was in your situation but a few years ago managed to pass grade 8 piano with distinction and then went on to do her performance diploma. She was 42 and also had a very demanding full time job and two children at primary school! They got a bit annoyed about her continual practising but managed to live with it and are now fully recovered and flourishing!

So there really is no need to fret so much, is there? Hmm?

Violinia

Thanks Violinia - ur advice really helps. I think it will help once I get out of the Unversity Microcosm and break free of all the restrictions. I might just leave it until I'm truly settled and can get on with it - and when I do I shall take it EXTREMELY seriously and there will be no stopping me. It's more than just a hobby to me - it's something I am very, very passionate about and that's why it frustrates me so. I have genuine affinity for this subject and I want to share it with others and take it very seriously. I actually LIKE practising when I have the time!

Hi! I understand your feelings and would like to share my experiences with you.

I started about the same time as you! I wanted to play the piano since I was 5, but my parents couldn't afford it. I left home when I started lower sixth and felt rather homesick. I was doing all sciences and maths, so I decided to do something "completely different" to get my mind off things!

I passed grade 5 practical and theory in 2 years, but then I went to university to do a very, very hard and long degree. I also lived in the halls and it was very difficult to find a piano to practice. There were 2 practice rooms in a hall of 1000 residences. One of the pianos was completely out-of tune. The other one had a broken pedal! So... I gave up- only for a while though.

When I graduated, a bought a portable digital piano with my very first pay cheque and attempted to re-started. However, things went very slowly. I worked very long hours and find it very frustrating that I can no longer pick up simple pieces as quickly as before.

Then, I had to do postgraduate exams while working full time! This took about 2 years of my life and has nearly "killed me". During this period, I moved home and at last have a proper piano to practice on. I played a little bit a day when I was having "a break" from my studies. My standard was, however, very poor and I often find it very upsetting and annoyed with myself.

I passed those exams last winter and the first thing I did was to find myself a piano teacher. I have been having lessons again for about 6 months now and I think I have made some progress. It is not easy to learn the piano as an adult esp when you have a full time job, postgraduate studies plus other worries in life eg family. Sometimes you have to wait until you have sorted other things out. I waited 8 years.

What about now? I find that it takes me much longer to learn a piece than before. As an adult learner, I found myself getting through the initial grades rather quickly. I begin to feel a bit "stuck" as I start to play the more advenced work especially those that need good technical skills like Bach and Mozart. So what? I play the piano because I love it. There is no need to rush or set targets to stress myself. I just want to enjoy playing the piano.

HI Musicana,

Sorry to hear about your depression with your music studies, esp since you were one of those who encouraged me to get started on the violin a few months back.

First of all, you are definitely not old, as others have testified. I am older than you too, and I know of several people at the music school I go to who are older than myself.

Two. I was one who always put studies ahead of other things as well so I understand your frustration and dilemma. If you are overwhelmed, given you aren't focused on being the next Menuhin or Horowitz, then concentrate on uni first because after all that is over you have your qualification and can do whatever you want. Not saying to give up music but don't let it take over the study time and energy. Afterall, the music is supposed to relax you and allow you to recharge for uni, not sap your energy even more.

Three. If two areas of study and two instruments are too much, have you considered maybe focusing more on just one instrument first? I moved from place to place every year during my studies and first years of work and didn't have any access to a piano until this year, which is why I stopped for 9-10 years. I totally understand carting a piano around is impractical (just my books and clothes were bad enough!). Unless you really really really really want to focus on piano and improve more on that, then you could put it on the back burner until you graduate and focus on violin which you can easily take everywhere, including Spain next year. If you do want to do piano, then a digital piano as people suggested is a good idea.
You might find if you focus on one and improve on it, it might help the other instrument once you get back to it.

Four. It is never too late to learn, or take up again. I took up violin from scratch and piano again after a decade at 25. Yes, it took a bit of work to get into it again, but nothing good hard practice doesn't fix. With all my studies (BSc, PhD) behind me and a job fixed up, I can focus on the music after work each day. I appreciate everything so much plus feel pretty rooted because I know I no longer have to think about moving away for uni or late night studying for exams etc. There is no more pressure of having to pass exams in order to get a job.

Five. Trust me, I understand about the boyfriend problem. I feel inferior a lot of times too even if the person or persons better than me are all very nice and encouraging and never flaunt their talents. Is your boyfriend supportive of you though? Violinia made a very good suggestion. Jazz might not be what you would enjoy at first but you can give it a try. I do very much understand this situation though because I've been through it myself (not boyfriend but friends). Maybe you just haven't found an aspect where you shine? I may be better at actual playing the piano than my boyfriend but he is light years ahead of me in sight reading, playing songs from musicals and in theory.

Six. Keep reminding yourself it isn't a race. Also that music is a hobby which you are supposed to enjoy, not get depressed about. It is hard I know because I feel like you do at times too. But if you don't think of your situtation as yourself, imagine it is someone else, say a friend of yours. If she was doing a degree course with 2 majors, and on the side funding herself through piano and violin after being a late starter, would you be impressed and admire her dedication and courage to balance everything? I know I would! You just don't notice it because well, you are in the thick of it, you are too close to it. I have to say I am probably more impressed with all the adults on this forum, who balance their music obsession (and reaching very very respectable grades too) with family, kids, bills, house chores and a full time job. You can't expect (demand!) yourself to be at a Grade 8 distinction level with just three years of experience, student loans, studies and worries about exams, accomodation, moving, day to day living. Your boyfriend (plus all those young whippersnappers) had the lucky chance to learn when young, who learnt when all they had to worry about was school, when their parents paid the fees, fed the family, pay the rent/mortgage, sorted the laundry, cooking, provided the taxi service. You might not realise how living on your own (or at least away from home) can drain you. I never did, it was my friend who pointed it out to me when I got upset like you did. I think you should give yourself a pat on the back for what you have alrady accomplished!

I read that music means more to you than a hobby. I realise I used the word hobby here too. But what I mean is a very serious hobby. I am passionate about music too and it is much more to me than say going to the cinema (which can also be listed as a hobby). I would like a part time career in music sometime, but at the same time, it is still a hobby in that it is a "side chain" interest, however passionate, and something I escape to after a hard day's work.

Musicana, i have nearly the same situation as you

i too started at near 17....for piano..and then a few months later, i decided to go to music college but now its stressful because i started so late.

I have to try and complete 5 grades of theory by next march and i only started theory 2 months back. im doing A levels as well so cheer up youre not alone!

and i understand about how passionate you are about music. Heck im the same as you! I love music and i practise and join as many music activities as i can but the prob is, is that everyone, including all the teachers think of me as pursuing a career related to art...but deep down inside, i really love music..so i dont care what they are saying..i just follow my dreams and do what i really want to do.

As for your bf, do not get jealous. Ask him for help, in instrument playing and maybe how he can get you to some other orchestras. I too sometimes see other younger students and how they are so good at piano and sometimes i do cry...i ask myself why i didnt start piano earlier...

But dont feel bad about it

Adults have the ability to learn faster and its better to learn now then never right?

My fav quote from my fav pianist and idol:

'Its not hard to learn the piano,,,but once you can play it, it just sounds so beautiful'

always cheers me up!

+ dont hesitate to ask the members in this forum for theory or practical help

Hi Musicana, you seem to worry about the times when you will not have lessons. I took up the violin at 42 and there have been times when I have not been able to afford lessons, and at those times, I kept what I had achieved. I still did my scale and the music I already had done, I know its not making any advancements but it does help.

Perhaps you could use your music as a form of relaxing from your studies, so instead of stressing about how you are going to make time for your music, think of it as relaxed concentration. You're in your 20s I'm in my 50s your going to be better than I could ever hope to be as my fingers are not as nimble as yours.

Hi - FRET not, follow your heart. I pottered through some piano exams as a kid but taught myself to play flute and recorder. At the age of 26 I rang round music colleges until I found someone willing to listen to me play and help me out. At that time I was working full time and mortgaged up to my eyebrows so returning to full time education was not an option. My persistence worked and I ended up studying for several years with tutors from Trinity, the RAM and RNCM. Without the expertise, encouragement and enthusiasm of those people I could not have achieved my goals. I now teach for a living and absolutely love it. I went without everything to finance my training but I had to do it for my own sanity. Music IS my life and it was just pure circumstance that prevented me pursuing a career within the profession straight after school. Go for it! It is NEVER too late and there is always a way. Good luck & keep positive!

Bagpuss, you started teaching music when you are 26?

Having read your original post, i really don't understand considering your circumstances why you don't buy something a little more portable like a keyboard and violina is right stop making music so hard for yourself try and consider the jazz grades they are fun whilst still demanding enough to improve your piano skills. Also it looks to me music at this point in your life music should be way way on the back burner until your more serious academic stuff is out of the way. Then you can give your passion for music more time and attention. The most thing is to enjoy it which you are not at the moment. Some one once said you can't slave for two masters, you'll end up loving one and hating the other.

QUOTE (Musicana @ Jul 17 2004, 01:43 PM)

and the fact that it is a very expensive thing to keep up, especially when you are young and haven't much money. You are right, it's not a race, but what it should be is the chance to let yourself flourish and put one hundred percent effort into it and enjoy what you do - but the impracticalities don't allow this.

Hi I know how you feel but don't worry you have plenty of time. I was desperate to learn the piano as a child but wasn't allowed, various excuses money, space etc. Once I left home I couldn't afford to learn in my 20s, lived in small flats and was too busy with a career. Then late 20s and 30s children came along so too busy with babies and toddlers, I bought a very cheap piano and had a go for a year and managed to scrape a grade 1 pass. Finally at the age of 37 was able to buy a decent piano and take up lessons with a fantastic teacher. I have now been playing for three years and a year ago I passed grade 5 with a merit. It has been well worth the wait.

Hi Musiciana, don't feel bad about yourself, okay.
you are still very young. Actually I also started about the same time as you, doing grade 4. I always envy those children who start music education as early as three or four years old even seven to me doesn't seem old. My relatives started at this age and some even earlier i guess. I hope they should not take this for granted. It's really fortunate to have this opportunity to learn at an early age and also if your family is willing or able to afford this investment.
And still some of them don't really appreciate much

You know those in their middle age then started learning an difficult instrument like the piano and cello but they all learn it diligently and progress well. Start late better then never.
I go to a school to learn piano, and you can imagine all students are very young and some of them are doing the grades a lot higher than me. I feel strange sometimes and have to overcome. Or maybe I am a sensitive person sometimes I feel that they are looking at me and thinking. I look more like a teacher than a pupil I tell myself I pay for my lesson, I am here to learn and enjoy.
in future I would like to learn a string instrument, a cello maybe.
but i wonder if i can afford to pay for another school lessons. but its good to have dreams, and learning music is a long long journey with no ends to it even when you died.

Stop thinking too much, don't let things around you distract you.
Love yourself and love your music, just so simple. It's long a journey ahead, feeling depress again will only make you miss out things that are more important in your life

Are you in Manchester then? There are groups where you could play regularly with your violin if so....even if you are only in the early stages.