Hello!!!! At last! It's taken me weeks of problems but I am finally able to post on ABRSM and join in the forums!!!

I just started playing 6months ago and LOVE the violin. I was a clarinet teacher years ago but have taken up the violin as a new challenge. I play with a Scottish fiddle orchestra and am just starting to learn double stopping and position changes but I haven't started vibrato yet.

I'm playing a 'Zeller' but I'm finding problems using my fourth finger partly because the violin has such a thick neck and partly because my hands are quite small.

I'd like to know if anyone has any experience playing a 7/8 size violin and if they think the smaller size affects the tone? I think I'm outgrowing the Zeller already and am thinking of moving to a Gliga Gama.

Any thoughts/opinions would be of interest.

Oh and Hi again - I've been able to read the forums for ages without being able to join in and it sounds like such a friendly knowlegable place!

The 7/8 is actually quite a common size in older violins - it was known as the "ladies violin". No reason why you should notice any change in the tone, except of course the significant change going from a Zeller to a Gama.

Liz

I've had a 7/8 on loan for a few days now and the first thing I noticed was how much easier it was for me to play in tune... but it sounded like a 'kiddie's violin'!!!!! .. all thin and reedy.

My Dad has loaned me his full-size saying it has a more refined neck than the Zeller and I should find it sitting easier in my small hand and that's true - it's a bit more of a stretch than the 7/8 but my fourth finger is nearly bang on tune with it.

So I'm hoping the Gama has a more refined neck than my chunky Zeller!

But what to chose; a 7/8 which might have a 'smaller' sound which I don't want, or a full size that I will eventually learn to pitch properly as my hand learns to stretch???? Anybody have any thoughts???


This violin business is really complicated!!!!

There are many factors that affect the sound of the violin. If a 7/8 of a particular model, set up in a particular way, sounds thin and reedy, then so will the full size version. A decent violin can sound like a decent violin from at least half size upwards (quarter size is more difficult)

The Gama does of course have a better neck than the zeller but I think you would be better to go for a 7/8 if you are at all worried about the stretch.

Liz

Thanks for your replies Liz.

I'm going to speak to my teacher next week and then I'll be in touch. Whatever the size I'm really excited about my new violin!!!!!!! Now I just want to find a loving home for my Zeller which was brilliant at starting me off!!!

Most retailers would be happy to take violins in part exchange against an upgrade, though sometimes a better price can be had through a direct sale, particularly if the teacher knows someone who might be looking for such a violin. Zellers are popular so you should find it easy enough to sell as long as you are realistic about the price.

Liz

It is possible to find old 7/8th violins. Bohemian (on this forum) has an 18th century Tononi 7/8th violin on loan from the Benslow Music Trust.

I've currently got a 7/8th F W Chanot on approval, mulling whether to p/ex my Kloz. As far as tonal properties are concered, it defies all the laws of phsyics. It has more volume than some full-size violins I've tried. However, French instruments can be an acquired taste since the varnish tends to be spirit based rather than oil based. Spirit based being slightly harder and therefore not making the tone of the instrument quite so sweet. Having said that, many professional violinists I know who own, or have owned a French violin, say there is more scope to develop your own sound. Instruments do change over time too, with regular playing they 'open up' and become a lot more resonant. This is probably something to do with the wood fibres moving more freely as the front and back plates vibrate.

One cursary note about instrument size and small hands, remember that it's always better to fit the task to the person, rather than the person to the task. Repetitively forcing wide stretches of the fingers is extremely stressful on the tendons in the hand and wrist, especially when you think about the awkward angle at which one holds a violin anyway. Choosing a smaller instrument that feels comfortable to play is far wiser choice than ending up with a repetitive strain injury.

I've been looking around (on the internet because there are no violin shops where I am) and the prices for older violins go well into the thousands. Some of those violins do sound like they would be wonderful instruments though and maybe someday I'll be able to travel to try some out. I'm afraid, as a beginner, they're well beyond my budget just now. (And although I never play it now I just can't bring myself to sell my clarinet.)

It looks as though I'll go for a 7/8th and I keep hearing fabulous things about Gliga violins. I've got three violins sitting in the house just now and although I don't like its sound, it's the 7/8th I keep taking out to play because it is so comfortable in my hands.

When I played the piano many moons ago I was told I had great hands for Bach and Mozart but not for Liszt or Brahms; I can stretch an octave but my fingers must really be quite short. It's a pity I couldn't do lengthening exercises (I'm sure it was Bach and Haydn I played for my Grade 8 - it was a lifetime ago when I was still at school...oops!)

Anyway, thanks for your reply Amanda - the world of 'strings' is certainly fascinating!

Gliga really are as good as people say. I've got a Gliga Gama viola with only a 15 inch back, but it has a terrific sound. I only really use it for teaching and if I was going to play viola professionally, I know I would need something with an even bigger sound, but Gliga can hold their own very well in good amateur orchestras.

My hands are probably about the same size as yours. I can stretch an octave on the piano, but, only with my thumb and little finger just hanging on the ends of the keys. Fitting any extra notes in in between, with the other three fingers, would be impossible.

If a 7/8th violin is what feels comfortable for you, then go with it. It's very easy to be swayed by people saying, "oh nobody else would ever buy it because it's too small". There are enough small handed players out there who benefit from the comfort this size of violin offers - otherwise 7/8th violins (and cellos!!) wouldn't have been made. Through bitter experience I know there are things I can manage on a 7/8th violin that I struggle with on a larger instrument. Being able to play at speed and move around the fingerboard swiftly is extremely important. If the instrument is too big to enable the freedom of the hand, then it will stilt your progress and general ability to play certain types of music.

I wish you all the best in your violin playing!

Hi Lottie,

I am not a violinist, I must confess. Well, like Bo and AmandaL, my girl is also using a 7/8 violin. Maybe she has big hands for her age. It is an old French one and no, it does not sound kiddish/bright at all. It has a lovely tone! If your 7/8 feels comfortable, then by all means as AmandaL advised, go with it. If it sounds horrid to you, try changing strings, might work??? If it doesn't - I'm just throwing out ideas here - get another 7/8. No point changing to a full size if the 7/8 itself feels comfy.

Best wishes,
T

I've ordered my Gliga 7/8 violin!!!!!


Now how do I contain myself for the few weeks it will take to arrive?????

I used to play a 7/8 and it was really old. It has a peice of paper inside that says repaired 1901. We got it at a local auction for £5 but it was really a flat pack when we bought it! I now play a strange ol 9/8 violin which was found in a garage in the west coast and set up for me by a lovely old man who has sadly now passed on. It has a lovely open and loud tone. We think it could be early 60s, its a bit wonky and it looks like its hand carved.

I know the feeling lottie having to wait for a new instrument - I had to wait ages for my new flute, I thought that I could forget about it till it arrived, but no luck, I thought about it every day!

JUst out of pure curiosity, what do you think would fit the bill for a 'bigger sound'? Something bigger and/or a higher range of instrument?

Elisabeth, lots of Japanese women play 7/8 instruments, and you can certainly find good ones, though it may take you a while.

Big sound...I'm sure others can tell you more, but apart from the tendency for "flattish" violins to be louder than "fat" violins, a poor set-up will really affect both tone and volume, so shop at a stringed instrument specialty shop if possible.

By 'set-up' do you mean the bridge and strings etc?? Does that mean you can make a real change to the sound by changing these?

How much does it cost, on average, to have a luthier change the bridge and strings????

Liz from Elidatrading or one of the strings teachers could tell you more, especially on prices... but I see you've already ordered a Gliga, so it will come set up already.

"Set-up" means strings and bridge for starters, but also the soundpost (inside the violin). A really gung-ho luthier might take the violin apart and start gouging stuff out of it, but not usually unless you ask him/her to!

THere are lots of luverly strings out there, and people have their preferences of course, but the Gliga probably comes set up with strings that the vendor thinks suit that particular instrument, and are fairly durable. Some of the more expensive strings don't stay in good condition all that long - they are for people who can and will change their strings every few weeks.

The shape of the bridge is a matter for experts, but luthiers have their own preferences on shape and type of wood. For a start, it should be sitting really snugly on the violin - no tiny gaps between the violin and the "feet" of the bridge. In theory, a bridge of a harder wood with a snug fit should transmit vibration efficiently into the body (soundbox) of the violin.

Although it doesn't affect the sound, as a beginner, you might prefer quite a curved bridge, so that it's easy to play on the string you want, without accidentally sounding the neighbouring strings. But as you progress, you might want a flatter bridge so that you can play double-stops (chords)more easily.

In a cheap or neglected violin, the soundpost could easily be crooked, or have even fallen down inside the violin, or be in a bad position, or again, not be fitting really snugly against the top and bottom of the violin. Having the soundpost in the right place will instantly create a clearer sound!

Of course, your bow will also make a big difference to the sound, but even more, your developing skill in bowing will get more and more out of the violin.

We were talking viola at this point...

So what are the best type of strings that people use - what's your favourite?

My teacher like Pirastro strings but they come in different types don't they? I don't know anything about strings yet but I would prefer ones with a warm mellow sound than anything too harsh and bright.

Most beginners start with Dominants though their E string has somewhat of an infamous reputation for being extremely squeaky. =) Dominants are fine strings. I use Vision Titanium Solo strings and so far, they sound great! I aim to get a set of Pirazzi's when I get advanced enough. =) If you're a beginner, I'd say go for Dominants. It's more important to be able to get good clean notes each time before considering changing strings. You could, however, change the E string. My old violin had Dominants on them but I replaced the E with a Pirastro Tonica and it worked ok. It really depends on the violinist! It has to be something you like.

I have dominants on my violin (coming from East Europe) and even many say that Dominat are ok I think that E and A have problems. I have to tune string A many times even if I play only for half an hour. I'm trying to understand if it is me playing very poorly or the strings. The G string sounds strange... more deep
thnx
jordan

Comparing strings to playing standards is like comparing apples with oranges. They are two very different things.

A complete beginner violinist will make a pretty foul sound on any instrument, whatever strings it has.

I would agree that Dominants are a good all round string and will suit most players and most instruments, but putting a set of Pirazzi strings on an instrument when you are "advanced enough" is not a reason to use them. Every violin is different and Pirrazi strings are very modern high tensioned strings meaning they simply don't suit all violins. They can sometimes 'strangle' the tone of an instrument, rather than make it sound better. Using them as a benchmark of playing standard is not the correct way to approach stringing a violin. Be guided by eveness of tone and whether there are any hard notes or weak spots on the instrument - use strings which balance this out.

If it sounds right and the results are good, then use the strings that give those results - not a brand name or because you think your playing requires a particular string.


Are you really sure they are Dominant strings?? There are a lot of fake goods arriving from places like China. Packaged to look like the genuine article, they are in fact inferior copies.

Are you really sure they are Dominant strings?? There are a lot of fake goods arriving from places like China. Packaged to look like the genuine article, they are in fact inferior copies.
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My violion came from Czechoslovakia and I have changed my strings (I changed the G one and my major the others. They are original. The problem remain

I've heard Pirastro strings are meant to be good.

Does anybody use them and which 'model' do you use????

It's fun considering different types of strings and is all part of the enjoyment of learning a string instrument but it can get expensive trying out different sets. Your new instrument should come with a reasonable set which are good quality and suit the instrument. I would play on these for a few months then think if you need different ones when they need changing. Then at least you can ask "I have xyz and I think my violin sounds shrill/dark/etc. I would like it to be richer/warmer/brighter etc. what do people recommend?"

In answer to your question my daughter uses Pirastro Evah Pirazzi on her 'cello and loves them but they are the only ones she has had on that instrument so has nothing to compare them with and what suits an 11 year old with a 3/4 size 'cello isn't much guide to what will suit you and your violin.

But I don't want to spoil your enjoyment so here are some links you might like

http://www.pirastro.com/
http://www.thomastik-infeld.net/strings/index.html

string talk - but rather out of date now
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~leonid/violin_strings.htm

Hi, thanks for your reply earplugs

I'm thinking about strings for my Dad's violin which I have on loan just now until my Gliga arrives. It's a very good violin, way out of my league, and I'm treating it with kid gloves because it's worth a lot of money. (My teacher's jaw dropped when she played it recently.)

However, Dad hasn't changed the strings in 20years (he's not been playing it) so it needs new ones! He doesn't know the current market so told me just to go ahead and get new strings for it and he'll change them. I'm just trying to work out what would be best because the violin is going to be put away again and hardly used unless I borrow it for concerts/exams.

Clearly nobody has taken in what I previously wrote about strings that suit the instrument, rather than going on the word of what someone else plays on. We all have our own ideals of the perfect sound and all violins are different, be guided by what sounds right to you on your violin.

Strings should be changed annually, at the very least, E strings more frequently. Certainly before they break. If one string breaks, change the entire set (unless it's the E string). You won't get anywhere near an even sound across the range if you've got one new string and the other three are six months old.

Sorry you're cross AmandaL

The problem is I have no experience of violins, no experience of strings, no experience of the differences between violins and strings and no idea what to buy out of lists and lists of strings!!

I can't afford to 'try' strings because I don't have that kind of money available, and don't know what would suit the instrument (because of lack of experience!) so I was really just looking for some advice about where to start!

The strings on Dad's violin do need changing so I am trying my best to find info about the right set to buy. The links that earplugs put up were very useful and the descriptions of strings in online shops are helpful too.

Yea, they should set up a string trying in violin shops so that customers can try the strings out instead of buying them and trying out. The worst part would be to find out that the string doesn't work. God...Amanda, what type of violins suit Pirazzis?

Lottie

I would just go for a set of dominants from Thomastik. They are good value - not too expensive but generally good. I think they are relatively cheap because they sell so many. Probably set you back about £27 for a set bought online so if they end up not suiting you perfectly you haven't broken the bank. They seem to suit most people and most violins OK, lots of quite good players use them. I would expect some improvement over a set of 20 year old strings! At least you will then have a new set on the violin and know that any problem is not due to prehistoric strings. If, after getting used to them, you don't like something about them it will be easier for people to suggest what to do because you will be starting from a point that most people are familiar with.

There is a choice of E between wound and pure steel wire. I prefer the wound personally. Check whether you need ball or loop end on the E string by looking at the current strings. Choose medium guage.

Hope you approve of the advice AmandaL (only teasing).

Andromeda - there is a Luthier near me who does string trials for cellists. You can go there with your instrument and spend an hour or two trying all sorts of combinations to find which you like best. Cello strings are so expensive that you can easily end up trying a few hundred pounds worth of strings I should think. I don't know of anybody who offers a similar thing for violinists but there might be.

I live in Singapore lol. You probably live in the UK yes?

Yes UK. You could probably buy all the violin strings you would want to try for the airfare over. How big is the violin playing market in Singapore - you could start a string trials business there.

Lol...I don't think it's as big as the UK. Strings are taught in public schools in schools in the UK. Strings are not taught in schools here. Only very very few schools have string ensembles. Even so, its members are taught privately or in music schools. Even fewer schools teach strings in school.

Generally violins of the quality belonging to a top concert artist - the Maxim Vengerov and Vadim Repin sort who need to produce a sound that will soar above a full orchestra. Pirazzi strings have a huge sound and don't blend well in ensemble situations. Their high tension can make them a bit hard sounding under the ear as well, which is fine in a concert hall, but not for practicing in a room at home. Terrific strings, but not really suited to general use.

*grin* Thanks Amanda! I'll stick to my Vision Titanium Solo that came with my violin. I love their sound!

How much does it cost, on average, to have a luthier change the bridge and strings????
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I Know that at my local violin shop - Beverley Music Centre - they charge about £20 to fit a DJ bridge (one with adjustable feet) which is the type the fit to Zellers along with Dominant strings. Dominant strings are a bit mellow sounding to offset the possibly robust Zeller tone. Zellers are a bit bulky but as long as youcan reach the scroll comfortably I would try a violin with a less chunky neck to make it more comfortable to play rather than a smaller one. Loreato violins from Soundpost for instance are a similar price to Zeller but feel smaller and nicer to play. I used a 7/8 professionally myself years ago, but do not recomend this to my pupils

[quote name='nigel' date='Feb 12 2007, 12:13 AM' post='462347']
How much does it cost, on average, to have a luthier change the bridge and strings????
[/quote]

I Know that at my local violin shop - Beverley Music Centre - they charge about £20 to fit a DJ bridge (one with adjustable feet) which is the type the fit to Zellers along with Dominant strings. Dominant strings are a bit mellow sounding to offset the possibly robust Zeller tone. Zellers are a bit bulky but as long as youcan reach the scroll comfortably I would try a violin with a less chunky neck to make it more comfortable to play rather than a smaller one. Loreato violins from Soundpost for instance are a similar price to Zeller but feel smaller and nicer to play. I used a 7/8 professionally myself years ago, but do not recomend this to my pupils
[/quote]

It's interesting to hear that about the Zeller being chunky. I've had my Dad's full-size on loan along with my teacher's 7/8. My Dad's violin has a narrower neck and I've enjoyed playing it. I think the 7/8 feels a little 'crowded' on the fingerboard by comparison. Yes, I do have to stretch more with the full-size but I'm getting my fourth finger mostly in tune without the cramps I was getting with the Zeller. All very confusing!!! And yes, I can reach the scroll comfortably...

You can't have done, Nigel, they've only been around for a couple of years at most, probably less. You must be confusing them with some other Soundpost product.

Liz

You can't have done, Nigel, they've only been around for a couple of years at most, probably less. You must be confusing them with some other Soundpost product.

Liz
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I did not mean I played on a soundpost product, only that the Loreato violin I had tried on one of their trade stands at an exhibition had a thinnish neck. The small violin I used was prabably called a ladies violin at one time and was probably bought about 1960 when Iwas at school. I gave it in as part exchange when Ibought a different violin - along with about 3 others I had aquired,about 1975 at Hills. I remember it as being an English violin and was about 80 years old at the time. I have also tried your violins by the way and have have pupils who use those also.

Ah! I must admit the idea of playing a Loreato professionally was somewhat mindblowing

Well now I have two new violins to try; a full size and a 7/8!!!, both Gligas.

I've been playing them so much (and had a 'hard' rehearsal at Fiddler Orchestra last night) that my left-hand index finger is really sore.. I can hardly move it!!! Think I might have a strained finger

.. and I'm hopeless at decisions!

But I have an inkling.. and I already have a name for her....

Do be careful, I did myself a long term injury by ignoring pain.

Liz