Tomorrow i've got my first adult pupil. She doesn't have any musical background and is starting Clarinet with me, any tips on anything i should do differently than with the children?

Regards,
Nicia

Lucky you! Adult pupils are my favourites

Be prepared for them to be quite nervous, and often they tend to apologise for every single mistake (which doesn't sound so bad, but after 6 apologies in 60 seconds it does start to get a bit amusing). Once their confidence grows they will soon outgrow this habit.

Also, it's easy to make the mistake of thinking that because they are older they will learn faster. Sometimes this is the case, sometimes this isn't, so don't overload them too much or they will lose their confidence.

The other thing I have found is that some adults haven't learnt anything new (by their own admission) for years, and they aren't used to being taught something. One of my new adult pupils said last week that she hasn't had to think so much in a long time... her job as an accountant has just become routine & she hasn't learnt anything new since leaving uni!

Hope that is somewhat helpful. I'm sure the wonderful adult learners on the forum will have something more to contribute.

Enjoy the lesson!

not a teacher, but I am an adult learner...I like to be treated probably similarly to children LOL apart from making me dance/sing which I hate (and thank goodness my piano teacher does not make me do it) I like to be told what to practice, how to practice, how long etc I like to be praised and I like receiving stickers to put in my book when I have learnt something difficult I also like/appreciate being 'told off' if I wasn't practicing etc (but I always practice so my teacher has no reason to tell me off )

Guilty as charged. How long will it take me to grow out of it??

Difficult to say. I tell most of my adult students that I'm going to get "NO APOLOGISING" written out, framed and hung over the piano.

Perhaps a t-shirt with 'MISTAKES ARE OKAY" printed on it MaggieMay?

I once gave one of my adult students a demo of how it is when she apologises. I played some repertoire I was working on (ie not yet at performance standard) and everytime I didn't put a crescendo in, did some slightly bad pedalling, didn't like the tone, etc I apologised. My student was in hysterics by the end of it!

Of course I wouldn't do this to all students ... but I knew she would appreciate it! She is now slowing getting out of the habit of apologising, although sometimes she apologises & then says "oops sorry!" for apologising!

I only teach adults. They are slower than children to master pratical technique but much quicker to understand the theory (massive generalisation).

I think it's easier for adults to become frustrated by their lack of progress. I set mine theory (and composition) homework along side practical stuff - that way they can still do something productive when they are having a break from the instrument. With a wind instrument it might not be possible to physically manage a lot of practice in the early days and also some adults are restircted by being unable to practice when children are in bed. I'd recommend getting new adult pupil to buy AB Theory in Practice Grade One and set them off on that while their enthusiasm is strong.

I don't tend to apologise for my mistakes, I sometimes acknowledge them with an 'ouch!'.
I think my worst habit is stopping..... even though I know that it's against the rules.

sounds like a very good idea! - I don't think I apologise as much as I used to... but I have been having lessons as an adult for several years now............

Yes, I've had the "sorry for apologising " too.

Like the t-shirt idea nic - might get a few done !

I hope the pupil stays if he / she has a good attitude etc. In my experience, adult pupils rarely last beyond 6 months. It depends on their motives: e.g. they have been bought a new piano by a hubby, etc; they have decided that they need some "me" time; they want to get out of the house; they want some social contact etc.etc.

Aside from pupils who are taking up piano again after having learnt in childhood or adolescence, it's hard to see what long-term incentive their is for stickability!

All the best for the encounter. I hope it will benefit both of you in more ways than musically. That's often the case in such situations.

LR

Surely the long term incentive is being able to play a musical instrument? Just as it is for a child.

Thanks for the advice, everyone!

I teach all my pupils Theory as well as the instrumental skills, so that looks like it should go down well.

She seems very keen anyway, she told me she's wanted to play clarinet for years, hubby brought her one for birthday and shes wanting to learn not sure whether for exams or pleasure as yet.

I'll let you all know how it went on tomorrow!

I was in exactly the same position as your new student - adult, no musical background, wanted to learn clarinet. That was two years ago and now I'm completely addicted to it. I don't know how you teach children so I can't say what to do differently with adults, but I can say how it was for me if that would help.

My teacher told me that the expectations of adults tend to be so much higher than children's. Children don't compare themselves with virtuoso clarinettists, they just get on with making a noise. Adults, on the other hand, know what a good clarinettist sounds like and are impatient to get there. Also, adults may have started learning (as I did) because they want to be able to play their favourite music - so as soon as I could string a few notes together, I was trying to play like Artie Shaw

As a complete novice, I was totally ignorant about what it meant to learn to play an instrument. On my third lesson, I pointed to my Team Woodwind book and asked my teacher if, when I got to the end of the book, were there any other books to go on to or was it just a matter of skill after that If your pupil asks you this, do try not to laugh, it can be done, honestly - my teacher was very professional and chose his words very carefully when he answered!

During the first half term break, I was very pleased with myself because I re-wrote the notes of one of my favourite pieces into the lower register (I won't say transposed because I'd no idea what I was doing from a theory point of view!) and played it to my teacher the first lesson back. Funnily enough he wasn't as impressed as I was with it He told me it wasn't a good idea to try and run before I could walk, that I should instead be concentrating on breathing, rhythm, tone etc, and playing at a speed to match my ability. Oh dear! The following week I was so disheartened that I didn't play at all - we just discussed some CDs that I'd taken in. I guess it was around that time that it began to dawn on me that I wasn't going to learn how to play the clarinet within the month or two that I'd originally envisaged But once that realisation had sunk in, it was then just a matter of adjusting my expectations and starting to take it a step at a time.

The point of this rather lengthy ramble is to give you an insight into the possible perspective of your new pupil (although of course she may have a completely different perspective). Be aware that she may be leading a very successful life outside of her clarinet lessons, and that "failure" may be something that she has not experienced for a very long time. It is hard enough to step outside your comfort zone in the first place, without discovering that it is actually a lot more uncomfortable than you expected. But if she can get over the initial shock of finding out that learning an instrument takes years not months, then hopefully she will start to get more satisfaction and pleasure out of learning the nuances of the clarinet than she would have done if it had been something she could pick up in a few short weeks.

I hope you both have a good lesson, look forward to hearing all about it

The sheer enjoyment of it?

If your adult pupils only last six months, then it's time to look at your attitude, not theirs. Sorry but this is an amazingly
patronising post.

I learnt on my own for a couple of years, now have a weekly hour long lesson. My mother when she visits
can't get enough of my Moonlight Sonata Mvt 1. I find sight reading hard but fortunately have a brilliant
memory so I'm not overly held back by it. I am learning to play because I want to be able to play.
There are about 100 reasons for me to do this none of which have anything to do with the belittling list presented by this poster.
Nor it is therapy.

*steams off to learn next page of Chopin Mazurka *

My adult students are just as reliable, and stay just as long as my younger pupils.

Quite frankly, Lone Ranger, that's nonsense. And may say far more about your inability to retain adult pupils than about their stickability. An adult learner is not going to stick with a teacher who's arrogant, patronising and negative, and will have sufficient independence of thought not to tolerate such behaviour, even if a child pupil might do so.

If you are capable of looking beyond your own prejudices, try reading the Adult Learner forum here. There are LOTS of us who are deriving ongoing satisfaction from our music-making, and who have a long-term incentive of musical excellence and music-making with other people.

And try extending some courtesy to us adult learners - you might learn something and start retaining pupils.

Absolutely Sarah.

My adults want to do just as well as my child pupils, and you only need to do a quick search of the AL forum to read many inspiring stories of adult learners' experiences.

Hope you enjoy working with your new adult pupil Nicia.

loops I agree, not all adult students give up after a short time. I've just had a young lady give up after a taster 3-weeks - in my experience this is highly unusual, but I think realisation of the time, money and commitment involved was the factor in this case. No lack of interest or enjoyment, that much was obvious. She had made a great start and I was sorry - but there you go.

Skylark, a great post about learning from an adult's perspective I think. Many valuable points, most of which rang bells with me. Hope the original poster reads it ! And anyone else thinking of teaching adults. I teach both children and adults, and mostly find them rewarding in different ways.

And LR......read the reports on the AL concert at Teddington after it's happened this Saturday.

What is even sadder, is that instead of finding another teacher, these adult pupils may actually be disincentivised from learning music altogether.

I suspect that there is a make-or-break point with new adults, as I have indicated in my rather rambling late-night post yesterday, when reality sets in and it dawns on the adult what commitment is needed to proceed. When that make-or-break point comes, the way the teacher handles it is a contributory factor in whether the pupil continues. In my case I was able to have a helpful discussion with my teacher about my sense of "failure" and he told me to go back to playing things that I knew I could do until I was ready to move on again. At the time it was good advice, and coupled with having a "lesson-break" in which we just played music and talked about jazz, it enabled me to recover my confidence and motivation.

And of course, the teacher's attitude during the period up to the make-or-break point will have influenced the pupil as well.

Not wishing to be negative, and my experiences are hopefully not typical, but they have been much the same as Lone Ranger's. When teaching an adult it's important to ascertain exactly what they're hoping to get out of the whole thing, because it is often a whim.

And NO, I am not saying that all adult learners are like this, and it is clear that those on the forums are not.

A friend of mine took up learning the piano, and her lessons were held in a church hall. All went well for a few weeks, then on one occasion the teacher had to change the venue to his home, where there was just a keyboard. Then the one occasion became the norm. And she sometimes had to wait because his previous pupil overran. Then on one occasion, she turned up and the teacher wasn't there. She tried to contact him to find out what had happened, and it wasn't until after she sent a few messages, and a few days later, that he returned her text saying he was on holiday for a few days. No apology for missing her lesson. She never went back, and has not continued with any other teacher. Like I said earlier, the teacher's attitude and practices can affect whether a student goes one way or another. I think adults start off with a certain amount of motivation, which can be either nurtured or crushed by the teacher.

Would you rather that they apologised, or simply argued and tried to justify their mistakes...??

neither - some do both ...

I would like them to see mistakes as no big deal - just a valuable part of the process of learning.

Oh, I had to smile at the apologising bit! I had my first viola lesson 2 weeks ago (my second is in half an hour! ) and I did a bit too much apologising too! I realised I was doing it though, (probably from being a teacher myself), and am determined to try not to do it too much today!

I daresay that, if we don't find it easy to stop, it's possibly less to do with the situation and more to do with us personally. I mean, some people kinda seem to apologise for living. Not criticising them, it's normally owing to some unfair outside pressure ie. one of my friends constantly babbles nervously or apologises for everything which is a result of a severe lack of personal confidence thanks mostly to her family talking down to her etc. Horrid! They tell her she'd be rubbish at everything, so she now believes it! I want to tell them, in front of her, just how much better she is at Chinese and how much more progress she is making than several people who've been learning 4 times as long as her..... Perhaps it's a matter of self belief??

Well, let's see how often I say 'Sorry' this morning - I shall count!!!

Absolutely Maggiemay!!

I presume that exactly the same could be said for younger students.

Presumbly yes, although some may not be motivated at all - they may simply be learning because their parents want them to. But my current experience of learning an instrument is as an adult and my remark was made in the context of an adult friend. So I can't speak for younger students, and although I learnt the recorder as a child, it's too far back for me to remember what motivated me.

They might not realise what opportunities are open to them when they first start off. The inclination to start to learn an instrument may appear to be vague, but at least it's there and can be built on. I didn't say to my teacher that I wanted to play in an ensemble, or in a jazz band, or at forum concerts , or take exams etc because I didn't know that any of those things existed. But that's what I've ended up doing, along with a load of other stuff. At the time I started, though, I just wanted to play my favourite music, and it was my teacher who built on that and encouraged me to do other things. My piano-playing friend mentioned above also just wanted to play her favourite music - we both had the same motivation to start learning, but with one of us it has grown whereas the other has dropped it. A lot of factors have influenced our respective decisions, but our respective teachers have certainly been one of the influences on each of us.

Don't forget as well, that an adult might be very wary of saying they would like to take exams, or to aim for a particular grade, in fear of the teacher telling them they are out of their depth or talking nonsense.

When I asked (very tentatively) my son's piano teacher for lessons, I said it was because I wanted to accompany my students in lessons, because I thought this might be seen as a valid reason for wanting to learn. Whilst that statement was in no way untrue, it wasn't the whole story, as I had desperately wanted to play the piano since I was a tiny child. However, the piano teachers who were around when I was a teenager learning the flute wouldn't touch beginners over the age of 11, however musical, so I thought all reputable teachers would be the same.

The lesson went very well We covered some basic topics, started the instrument and generally had a good lesson, she seems keen to study for exams and i think theory is going to be easier than it is with some of the children!

I really enjoyed the lesson!

Glad it went well, Nicia.

I've had a few adult pupils in the past, and the main difference between adults and children is that they're doing it because they want to, not because their parents insist. I've found that adults can be alot more self-critical - children don't care what kind of noise they make, but adults want to be at performance standard within a week (and I write this as both a teacher and an adult learner!).

I never went as far as stickers, but my adults were delighted when I drew smiley faces in their books for a piece well played.

It can be awkward at first when you're significantly younger than your pupil, but that soon evaporates. Don't treat them like children; in fact, draw on their experiences to illustrate certain points - one adult of mine was getting very frustrated because her playing wasn't immediately perfect, but when I asked about her first driving lesson or the first cake she made, she grasped that everything takes a bit of time to get right.

I guess as most things at the end of the day it is not really down to whether you are an adult or a child, but down to who we are as a person and why we do certain things.
As a child I wanted to do something different every six months so if I took up piano lessons I would have disappeared 6 months later!
As an adult now I know what I want and I want to learn to play piano and violin as best I can and I don't mind how long it will take me so I will definetely stick to it longer than 6 months you just watch this space!.
For somebody else it might be the opposite! for other people, they might never know what they really want to do or they will.
Anyway, my two pence worth

The following extract is taken from the "musical fossils" web site:

A former student of mine, Kate Kimball, heading toward the intermediate level of development and intensely interested in music, asked in "Naked Notes": "So what keeps me coming back (to these lessons)?" After rejecting reasons of insanity and the need to constantly fail she goes on:

"The explanation I like best is that I play for those moments when the music plays me. It doesn't happen very often. It doesn't last more than a second or two. My playing may not even sound any better. But that moment when I am inside the music is about the sweetest feeling I have ever known and I will do anything to get back there. Even practice."

If anybody doesn't already know the site, it gives useful insights into adult learning.

As an adult learner who has just found a new teacher, I can tell you that your teacher’s attitude makes a huge difference.
We got a digital piano when my daughter took up violin 3 years ago. I had no intention of learning at that stage but the temptation to start messing around was too great. I tried to learn some of the pieces that were in a book that came with instrument, but progress was slow – not surprisingly as they were described as ‘piano greats’. Perhaps Clair de Lune was a little ambitious. So lessons seemed the obvious step.
A neighbour is a fine fiddle player and she recommended me to a friend agreed to take me on. This worked extremely well as the teacher was already known to me and this greatly helped overcome the nerves I felt. Unfortunately she had to give up teaching due to other commitments.
This is where problems began. She passed me on to a friend whom I met once but then proved impossible to contact. She apparently moved house but despite quite a bit of effort on my part, she never got back in touch. I then went to a teacher who taught another friend’s kids.
This really did not work. As an adult I am well aware of my shortcomings and a first lesson spent largely pointing these out with an undercurrent of criticism of my first teacher. This really is not the way to encourage pupils to continue. These 2 bad experiences nearly stopped me in my tracks – six months in.
Fortunately I have found another teacher who is extremely confident and therefore does not add to my nervousness but still has made significant improvements in my playing in 4 lessons. My motivation has returned and I have renewed the simple pleasure of playing(though I still cant play Clair de Lune)
Teachers attitudes really do matter!

well done for persevering Wheatie! hope it continues to go well.

My teacher at the end of last year said I'd made alot of progress in the year, and I was thrilled, and told him I wanted
a report card with a gold star (even though I am WELL out of primary school ) but he regretfully said he didn't do things like that.

I've seen a number of posts where adults say they like the "kiddy stuff", I think it's partly because of the child-like enjoyment
of playing, partly because you have to become child-like to learn ..... in a certain sense. (I don't mean dependent, or immature, maybe someone can help me out here if they know what I'm talking about!!)

I had a trainee teacher observe my lesson and I told her I was doing a great job ignoring psychological barriers such as not being instantly perfect, which I think is one of the main differences between adults and children (generally speaking). Adults have heard more fabulous recordings and can hear the difference between themselves and say, Hough or Argerich

Anyway I definitely think it is a conscious choice to give yourself the time to learn and progress without alot of self flagellation. A teacher who adds to the needless self criticism obstructs the very process they should be aiding.

I feel I pay my teacher to listen and criticise at the appropriate level. In other words, praise the achievement made, fix the things that can fixed, and provide pieces to play that progress the things that can be progressed in the immediate future.

Right now I'm learning more about my psychological barriers because he wants me to play a duet in a student recital.

P.S. Thanks for your post wheatie. Yes, the teacher's attitude can make or break.

Excellent


Amen to that!

Hear hear, loops, well said. I could not agree more with your sentiments. Coming to this thread rather late, I feel compelled to add my view. Interesting to see that Lone Ranger seems to have disappeared from this discussion. What an appallingly patronizing thing to say about adult learners. Of course there will be adults who start an instrument on a whim and give up, just as there are children who are terribly self-motivated and never need prompting to practise and do their homework. But on the whole it will be exactly the other way round. As an adult you know yourself, know what you want, what the costs are going to be both in financial and time/energy terms, and most adults will have learnt to persevere in the face of difficulties, boredom, disappointment and all that.
Most children have not learnt those things yet, they come with experience. If you cannot see what the incentive is for stickability Lone Ranger, have you ever thought of love of music-making and the satisfaction of being immersed in that? The satisfaction of passing exams even if all the other candidates are in their school uniforms?
I work a 10 hour day and with commuting time added you can make that 12 hours. As soon as I come home I have a cup of tea and practise the cello for an hour. Then supper and pretty soon after to bed. I also have piano lessons and am doing theory. Saturday morning is orchestra. And no, I am never going to be great, but I still love it.
I am so glad I have two very encouraging and supportive music teachers, both professional performers who are very happy to teach adults.
I shall steam off now too, to learn the Elgar Cello Concerto....or something slightly easier perhaps.

Speaking as an adult learner (I have been having lessons for the past three years) I can say that the really important thing a teacher can do is take the student seriously!
It is easy to feel maybe a bit silly starting something new in middle age, especially when one is taking so much time away from adult responsibilities to practice etc. I think I would feel patronised if my teacher thought that I was indulging a whim...or needed to get out of the house for a bit...maybe he does..?
One of the problems an adult learner has is lack of years ahead( sounds morbid but true!) and to some extent lack of support and interest from others so it can take a lot of self motivation and belief.
I ramble on, sorry - I shall get off my soap box now!
I have just discovered the edit function and I must add - how common is it for teachers of adults to feel like that? I am feeling quite offended! Just because I have passed my sell by date for being a child prodigy surely doesn't mean I can't be a reasonable musician?

Welcome Nova. Hope you cotninue to enjoy your lessons. What instrument do you play?

I thought that practice WAS my adult responsibility....

Thankyou! I play violin, and I am taking Grade 5 in the summer if I don't lose my nerve...

Good luck.

Do check out the forum events on the general board. Maybe you will be able to get to one of them, it's a great way to practice dealing with those nerves and everyone is very supportive.