Does anybody know what kind of harmonies Wagner used in Prelude to Tristan und Isolde...??

Well, it's dissonant to a point...

you could listen to it ...

or look at the score...

There are some appogiaturas in it- plus the Tristan Chord which nobody can work out (though apparently it's a something or other falling to a French Augmented 6th). Other than lots of leitmotifs, that's all I can remember from AS Music!

Yes, I've already written about the Tristan Chord... A half-diminished 7th, apparently!

I have also listened to it, and looked at the score... But I'm not intelligent/consciencious enough to be able to recognise a harmonic structure that complex simply from listening or reading...

The tristan chord is the most important thing. Get a score and listen to it. Talk about the orchestration too. Identify the Leitmotifs and find where they are in the prelude. Ideally listen to the whole opera and show how it relates.

The important thing about this prelude/the whole opera is how it does not return to the home key until the end of Isolde's Liebestod thus challenging conventional western harmonic language: there are some that say it is the prelude to Tristan that spelt then end of the tonal system... demonstrate how and no its not a half-dimisihed seventh. I've never heard such rot! Get the score and analsye it.

The is A/S were talking about so your theory should be up to harmonies of the Grade 6/7 standard. Don't parrot the whole thing from Wikipaedia or grout but do your research peoperly.

You have got to be consciencious at this level. There are no half measures. I'm sorry if I sound like a teacher, but I specialised in musicology as part of my degree. You do yourself no favours doing things by half measures.

I've got a score...

I have listened to it...

I've already done orchestration...

Quite apart from tha fact that I'm not actually meant to bring in the rest of the opera, I don't think I have the time to listen to the whole thing...

Thanks for the point on not returning to the home key...

It was not I who said the Tristan Chord was a half-diminished 7th - note the word "apparently" in my other post...

Again - I've already got the score!

I wasn't planning to use Wikipedia - I know how inaccurate it can be...

I am being consciencious - at least I'm trying to be...

My original comment about conscienciousness was a sarcastic remark about my obvious lack of musical ability, and about the fact that I clearly do not have the correct attitude to go anywhere is the music business...

Yes you do sound like a teacher - but thanks for the apology... You obviously meant it...

Congratulations on your degree... I hope your specialism takes you to places far higher than most of us can even dream of... I have Grade 8 Drum Kit - would you like 2-hour lecture on the use of paradiddles and paradiddle derivatives in latin-american and african cross-rhythms?





(I'd like to apologise to those fragile enough to have been offended by the acidity of these posts... The next few posts shall be distinctly alkaline, and will therefore neutralise the preceding ones, making salt and water... I only hope that the salt does not go over the govt-imposed daily quota...)

I only want the best for you Manek ( That makes me sound mumsy as well as a teacher) I'm sure the essay will be great. Better than Wagner great Debussy rubbish anyway. How are you getting on with l'apres midi...

Having a miserable half-term not being able to do good thing with my own kids so have no sympathy with home work Acidity you've got an essay to write!

Mmm, Tristan und Isolde

What sort of answer are you looking for, Manek? A chord-by-chord analysis of the prelude, something very general (basically tonal but with some yummy chromatic scrunches), or something in between (general overview but with some chords fully identified)?

Don't be fooled into thinking that Wagner was the first to use the "Tristan" chord, 'cos he wasn't - it pops up occasionally in Beethoven and Weber, two great influences on RW.

Having just filled in my ticket application form for Glyndebourne, who are performing Tristan this summer, I might have to listen to the complete work later on.

Thank you!



I've written a lot on the Debussy... I had some good notes (note notes!) on that piece from class... Not such good notes on the Wagner - hence the question on here!



That's bad luck...!

If you want to email me a copy I'll give it a proof-read (please remember I can't spell but everything else should be OK) Have you found lots of contrasts?

Ah - a real Wagnerian!!

I'm not looking for anything too detailed, tbh! Note-by-note analysis is not what's required...!

If somebody were to ask me the same question about the Debussy work, I'd say something like "a lot of 7ths, Debussy also uses the Tristan Chord, he uses Augmented 4ths to disguise the tonality, and continues to build chord extensions throughout the piece" - something fairly general, but not too general, if you see what I mean!!

Just as long as you don't get accosted by two stone wineos who think your a tart this time!

Yep, thanks, have done...

What emailed me or found loads of contrasts or both? Incidentaly before Deborah replies these stoned winos thought I was tart too. We were both propositioned at the bar in Waterloo station after going to see a concert performance of Tristam. Eventually Deborah got the train and I legged it for my bus.

Better than Wagner great Debussy rubbish anyway.

sorry - but I'm still trying to work out what this sentence means ...

I think it might perhaps be punctuated as:

Better than "Wagner great, Debussy rubbish" anyway.

or on the other hand --

Better than Wagner, great Debussy, rubbish any way
?

Eats shoots and leaves lives on in Forums-Land!

cyrilla et al I'm dosed up to the eyeballs on fentanyl. My ability to spell, punctuate and use correct grammar appears to have gone out the window.

OK gang, I accept full responsibility for this Wagner v Debussy malarkey, a light-hearted response to an earlier post of Manek's which some seem to have misconstrued as a serious contribution towards his essay.

There's no easy way to say this, but I'm afraid I just dislike Debussy's music - hours and hours of wishy-washy whole tone scales which go nowhere in particular. Before anyone says "Ah, but have you heard...?" I know that this is a gross generalisation, and that some Debussy, particularly the early stuff, is actually quite tonal, but I'm afraid that his music just doesn't do it for me.

So let's stop this nonsense and get back to helping Manek.

Manek, feel free to PM me if you wish to eulogise about Wagner.

Well you've given him fuel by stating Debussy uses the whole-tone scale. Their usage of the Orchestra is also deeply contrasting. Worth mentioning how Debussy quotes/ rib takes Prelude from Tristam in Gollywogs cake walk, the way he gets out of the tonal dilemma created by the "Tristam chord" might be useful.

Deborah there's lots of music that "doesn't do it for me" I've had to write essays on and wax lyrically about their merits.

Also this week I seem to have developed a sense of humour failure.

From what he was saying yesterday It sounds like Manek has un-earthed a lot of useful material for this essay. Loads of contrasts in harmonic language/ structure/orchestration I'm sure it will be fine.

Oh and before you write me off as a Wagner hater, far from it I'm not such an out and out Wagnerite like Deborah, but like Wagner's music a lot. A man who can produce an opera cycle that lasts the best part of a day (if performed end-to-end) and maintain the level of cohesion he does throughout cannot be written off. A Composer who through the Prelude to Tristam und Isolde can be atrributed to being the fore-runner of the second Viennese School isn't exactly an insignificant figure.

But the rest of you adults to not pick over spelling punctuation and grammar when actually its the content of the essay that is more important.. well that's not going to help Manek. Deborah and I have offered to read afore-mentioned essay and pass a critical glance. I've already admitted my spelling isn't up to much. Normally my grammar is better. (Deborah's is excellent)

Good luck Manek.

Have you talked about the long bar of silence on page one?

Yes...!



Jod, I've emailed a copy of the work to you... Dunno if it's got there, though! Deborah, I can do the same for you, if you want!

No need to send a copy to me. In fact, I'd prefer it if you didn't - if there's collusion going on, I'm not sure I want to be involved in it.

Enharmonically, it is a half-diminished actually. Either that, or every teacher I've had on the subject, and every book I've read (including the Grove dictionary, which has a tendancy to get things right) is wrong, and you're not. It's a bit rude to call it "rot" when you're probably talking to an A level music student, who can hardly be expected to know what a half-diminished chord is and is perfectly willing to admit that, particularly when what he/she is saying isn't "rot" anyway, but a perfectly valid opinion or judgement. Would you care to offer an alternative analysis of the chord? That might be more constructive.

To the original poster: Wagner was quite vocal about how he thought his harmony worked, and approved certain essays on it. I know he approved one essay by a Czech guy on the Tristan chord, so maybe you could look up what he said.
I also remember (from writing this same essay myself) that there are some very helpful notes online which you can download for free. Unfortunately I can't remember where they were.

I'll check my email later and give it a read. Deborah et al I never do a students work for them but I do make what I hope are constructive criticisms so that they can think again about a point and have a chance to re-do things if they want and on their own.

I wouldn't dream of doing Manek's AS coursework merely help. That's not collusion. That's like saying my tutor wrote my dissertation every time I had a supervision tutorial.

My goodness if a graduate in a subject I was doing my A level essays in offered to look through my work and give me pointers I'd jump at the chance. After all I got my step father to look through my maths. He never solved an equation for me, however when I'd done something stupid he would ask me to redo that bit again myself and then I'd solve the equation without any further help. I wouldn't call that collusion either.

When analysing chords it is important to look at its spelling not the enharmonic equivalent. You do that later, once you've tried to explain the chord in the context of the key you are in. As it is used in modulation then you look at the enharmonics. And its not a half diminished seventh, half of the chord contains a diminished interval. It's easy to spout things from grove without looking at the chord to see what it means. (You may think thats rude, but its better to learn hard lessons when doing A/S rather than keep getting it wrong even as a post-grad)

I am not going to analyse the chord. I have done 20 years ago! ...Rude to call things rot when speaking to an A level student... maybe but you are not going to learn unless you actually do the job yourself.

Loads of Online resources... Yes but which ones can you trust? When writing my dissertation I read load of articles which were irrelivant drivle, but I needed to be able to understand why they were and be prepared to defend that in Viva Voce.

So... How's this then...?


Tristan Chord = F/B/D#/G#

Intervals = Augmented 4th/Major 3rd/Perfect 4th

Includes Tritonal harmony... (Augmented 4th)

The Grove dictionary would clearly beg to differ, and clearly you think you know more than it does, but I'm going to trust everything I've ever learnt about this above what you're saying because even if you are right, and everyone else is wrong, if what is wrong is accepted by scholars as correct then it serves much better in an AS essay than anything else. Besides, wouldn't you find it a bit odd if an AS student came out with something which according to you is more correct than something written in the Grove and every other widely accepted music dictionary?


Have you actually read the passage I am referring to? I think it's pretty obvious what it means.


Great, but there's little point criticising other people's interpretations without offering some kind of alternative. Doesn't really help at all.

Thats the important thing it includes the tritone F-B invert it anc call that a diminished fifth. Unfortunately D# to F is a diminished third so you cannot put the chord on root that way. so try stacking it onto G# -B- D# is a G# minor chord with a dimished 7th. That is not a half dimished seventh chord. That is a G#mindim7 chord which is fundamentally unstable. it is the enharmonic application of that harmonically unstable chord and the fact it is tritone harmony that challenges conventional harmony and counterpoint. Interestingly there is tri-tone harmony in the whole tone scale too, but Wagner and Debussy use them differently. That may be a useful point to stick in your essay. Always try to put a chord into root position to find out what it is called. That is why its spelling in relation to the home key and key modulated to is so important.

Bohemian. I have offered to help I have no analysed the chord... oh and as an undergrad I had to "argue with scholars" that is part of the process of writing musicological essays. I Argued with my Head of Musicology about performance practice in Monteverdi's Venice. I could have contradicted him and got away with it if I had given better supporting evidence. I argued with a major newpaper critic about a concert we had just head. That time I did have the supporting evidence and he agreed to disagree.

Music history is not about black and white it is about shades of grey. Ask yourself why did you turn to grove... answer it is the definiative first starting point. Quote it by all means but in this sort of essay Manek needs to analyse the chord himself and provide contrast between the two composers approach. Sure the level of essays I wrote at 17 and those I wrote during my final year were different, but just because someone is doing A level does not mean it is wrong to challenge the way they look at a problem.

Manek is this of any use?

Very much so, thank you!!

So you'd look at, for example, an interval A - Gb and call it a major 6th because that's what it's enharmonic equivalent would be????? Sorry, but it would only be a major 6th if it was A - F sharp.....if it's A Gb it's a diminished 7th......which is very different in analysis if you're trying to be accurate.........

CD are you on my side I stuck the chord on root based on the notes I was given. I agree there is a huge difference between a diminished 7th and a major cth. That was the point I was making in the first place.

Unfortunately I haven't seen the chord in question .... but I do agree with you in that analysis has to be precise so I was just trying to poke a hole in Bohemian's argument.......

Ah, I didn't realise this was about taking sides and picking holes in people. I'll be off now then...

It's not picking holes in people - it's just trying to point out the illogicality of the argument about enharmonic equivalents........if I'd put in an analysis essay a major 6th rather than a minor 7th (following my example) I'd have been hung, drawn and quartered by my analysis tutor, that's all.........

So would I. Noting the enharmonics can explain how a modulation works, but can not be used as the basis of hamonic analysis. The reason for example why the french 6th chord is interesting is due to its enharmonic equivalent, however being spelt like that has tonal implications. These were things I learnt whilst studying for A level. I don't see why or how these things should cease to be important just because 20 years have passed in the interim.

Well after all the controvosy I've read Manek's Essay and passed on some comments. Apart from a lack of quotations that would make the harmonic analysis easier to read, it is a good piece of work. No enharmonic confusion there!