Hi all,

I'm back to have a whine again!

Just wanted to know what you all think about the value of Teaching Diplomas and Certificates in the 'real' world?!

I have completed the CT ABRSM and also hold the DipABRSM and two Licentiate Diplomas in teaching. I also hold other teaching certificates and Music Degree. Yet I am still being told that I am 'unqualified' by schools and education establishments.

I still find it very difficult to understand why teaching qualifications offered by 'the best' Music establishments, (which are often very expensive), are still held with such little value? I have yet to work at a school or Music service that really values my qualifications and at the schools I have worked at I am put onto the unqualified scales. I am now being told I must train further to gain qualified teacher status or risk losing my position.

I understand that teachers who train in educational routes and gain QTS work hard for their award. But many of us who chose to train as music teachers and have completed solid teacher training also worked hard and I feel so dismayed when I am told that my qualifications are not really recognised!

Why aren't they? How can boards continue to offer teacher training that is not recognised? Trinity offers specialist music teacher training diplomas that are a stepping stone towards QTS, yet dont say how this will happpen and as far as I can see there is no real route to progress to QTS from the Diplomas.

Will it ever happen that boards who want teachers to tudy for their awards, actually help them to gain recognised qualified teacher status?

It just seems so unfair!

Sorry to go on. I just wondered what other people, perhaps who might be in the same position thought about this?

Please do post!

Many thanks

J

I don't know anything about this subject but did I read that the higher level diplomas are equivalent to a degree and therefore you would only need to do a year's PGCE to acquire qualified teacher status?

J,

I work for a local county music service and get paid as an unqualified instructor. I too think it is terrible that having worked hard to gain good "qualifications" I'm classed as holding none.

I think the CMS prefers to hire people like me as I'm cheaper. Schools still pay the same to the county whatever scale the teacher is on. If the teacher is unqualified than the county get to keep more of the dosh. Cynical?

This is utterly appalling. I keep hearing rumbles about it all - is it a very recent government directive? JohnS - how long have you been called an 'unqualified teaching instructor'? Does this mean that anyone without a PGCE now has to be paid at a much lower scale? And Dips suddenly count for nothing? APPALLING!!! THis needs some heavy campaigning from the MU - I shall ring them tomorrow.

Violinia



Does this mean with an LRAM you can go on and do a PGCE even if you don't have a degree?

Violinia

I thought I had read that somewhere. I am just looking at the diploma syllabus book now for instrumental/vocal teaching and it says on page 66 that DipABRSM in higher education is a certificate of higher education, LRSM is comparable with a bachelor degree with honours and the FRSM comparable with a Master's degree. I am under the impression, but am possibly mistaken, that if you have a degree or its equivalent in a school curriculum subject, then you are able to do the PGCE as long as you have maths, English and science as well at CGSE. I am sure those who are more knowledgeable about these matters will be able to throw more light on the matter.

The actual phrase is comparable with the PERFORMANCE ELEMENT OF a degree or whatever - in other words, a degree will have a lot more stuff as well.

The diplomas have been given the same National Qualifications Framework Nos., which are Levels 4, 5 and 6, the same as that of a qualified teacher and those with higher qualifications such as a Masters.

Six years.

I have just looked at your qualifications, John. That is really awful especially - and I am probably going to get shouted at now - as learning and teaching a musical instrument requires a lot more skill than, I would say, doing a BEd. I am wearing my iron proof vest to dodge any bullets.

Similar sort of thing happened at uni... our oral tutor in 1st year who was also oral tutor and literature lecturer in our 4th year, did not have a degree in Russian, and was paid as some sort of teaching assistant (I forget exactly...) - this despite the fact that she WAS Russian, and had the knowledge and ability to lecture and tutor us in 20C Russian literature at finals level. Ridiculous.

But, diplomas are NOT viewed as the same level as a qualified teacher. Although i know Licentiates are supposed to be the same level as degrees, often they are not valued as the equivalent and I have yet to find a organisation who view teaching diplomas as equivalents of qualified teacher status qualifications!

I wonder if there is anyone from one of the Exam boards around who can comment on this?!

J

Thanks for clearing that up for me, JayMe. Clearly, I was mistaken. That is what I like about these message boards. You can learn all sorts of things and exchange views.

Yes, i think trinity states that clearly - the performance component of a degree etc. There must be some reasons that the boards wouldn't call the "diplomas" as degrees". I am quite sure some employers prefer people to have a degree rather than a diploma, although the NQF levels are the same.. quite unfair.






i doubt u will find any organisations would do that.

I don't really see the problem - QTS is only awarded after a four year full time course which includes periods of teaching practice and assessed teaching. So you do a degree plus a PGCE, or you do a BEd. Diplomas are EXTRA and by all means I think they should be recognised as EXTRA qualifications - also I would support a move to say that instrumental teachers have to have a substantial portion of their degree in music (though surely you have to play at the interview? I applied for several peri posts, back in 1985, and never got one despite having QT status because my playing simply was not good enough (at that time I was beyond grade 8 level but not quite up to diploma level).

The Dip and L diplomas are only equivalent to the performance component of a degree, that's all. The Open University, for example accepts them as being worth 30 or 40 points at level 2, and that's it. I can tell you there are thousands of far easier ways of getting 30 points at level 2 than passing a diploma, but that is how the system works. Unfair? Yes it is. 30 points implies 1/4 of a full time year's work, ie about 8 hours a week over 40 weeks, or a total preparation time of 320 hours. Can DipABRSM be done in 320 hours, assuming one has a good Grade 8 pass (as would be needed for University entrance) first? I have my doubts!

Liz

It is really unfair because many people start learning their instrument as a child and it takes many years to reach a proficient standard. I do not know of any other professions where people effectively start training for their career (although perhaps not at this stage have decided to pursue music as a career) in their childhood.

Indeed!

It's not just that though. It's not even the query over diplomas and degrees and whether or not they're equivalent. If it's stated that a diploma is only equivalent to the performance component of a degree, then fair enough! (I mean of course it is unfair as diplomas are much harder and deserve better recognition! But at least people know and can choose whether they do a degree or a diploma).

However the whole teacher training sector is not so clear! Music teachers are encouraged to acquire professional teaching qualifications, which in reality seem to stand for nothing! This is what's really unfair!

If they stand for nothing in comparison with other teaching qualifications in the education sector then why should people bother?! It's a lot of money and work for nothing in the end!

I think what's probably the worst is that not one person from any of the major boards has bothered to comment. I have written to both the AB and Trinity to ask them about their teacher training and QTS, yet neither will give me a reply!

Teacher training is teacher training! I don't understand why only certain teacher training is deemed worthy of proper status?!

J

Why are diplomas much harder? They are supposed to be the same standard. So how'd you work out that it's much harder to get to that level of performance outside the context of a music degree?? *confused* Besides the probability of getting help with tuition and being surrounded by music/having time to practise (which isn't easier or harder in a way, it just means the work is compacted) you have to take into account doing that level of performance exam on top of a bunch of other academic work... I'm not trying to get at you I just don't see your logic.

(Not that I am saying diplomas are easy - else I'd have 3 - but neither are music degrees.)

This has been a problem for a long time, but I think it's starting to get better. I work for a very large music service & have a music degree & diplomas, but not QTS, & I'm just about to sign a new contract putting me on the same pay scale as those who have a PGCE (but not always a degree in music). This has been under discussion for some years now, as our music service has realised the unfairness of the situation. I think it's likely that other music services will follow in time.