I'm currently getting inundated with new home students and saying yes to them all, but will very soon be at a point where I'm going to have to make some choices. Do I keep on a couple of lovable but practice-shy pupils and turn keen potential newbies down? Or do I issue some sort of a warning to the hapless pair: 'shape up or ship out'?

I went on a Sheila Nleson workshop thingy last year and somebody asked her the same question. Her response was surprising: she said she would never sack a pupil who didn't practise much if ever. She said we never know what they might be getting out of lessons with us, and in her experience non-practisers often suddenly start practising - when they're ready. She felt sacking them could be potentially devastating for them and she would never do it.

On the other hand I know of two local very good violin teachers who merrily sack anyone who doesn't practise enough. They just give them the heave-ho without as much as a by-your-leave, which means these teachers only have a bunch of 100% highly motivated mega-practisers and no stragglers at all. This would be my dream, but I've not before been in the position of having to make these kind of choices.

What do other people do? I've been teaching these two for a long time, by the way,and have very good relationships with both of them. They're both boys, one aged 10, the other 14. Both have a few problems at school (one gets bullied, the other is a low achiever with little confidence) and I know it would hurt them deeply if I told them to shape up or ship out. Or could it be the motivation they need?

I just don't know, and I'm loath to try it before asking you guys what you would do.

Thanks in advance!

Violinia

I would say, go with your gut feeling. If you feel that you don't want to sack these two, then don't. After all, they are getting something from coming to lessons, and you know who they are and what they are. There are no guarantees that their replacements from your waiting list would be any better at practising, are there?

It's very difficult, and I'm afraid I can offer no easy solution, except to say I'm in a very similar position - turning away potentially enthusiastic and hard working pupils because a number of slots are filled by what one might call 'hangers on' - no practice, no interest, and no progress.

David

The bottom line for me is pupils ensure that my bills are paid. I have never got rid of any pupil and some really do try my patience with their lack of motivation! The new ones might come for a couple of weeks/months and then decide it's not for them or they might move house shortly.

As has been said, how do you know if the newbies are better at practising? It would certainly take a while to have a great relationship with them, something that you have with those two pupils already.

From what you say of their school backgrounds, it might be that these 2 pupils are gaining more from their music lessons than just music - individual attention in a non threatening environment etc. etc..

I have had one or two pupils like this and eventually they have left of their own accord. I think that if it is really driving you mad, I would have a heart to heart - "where do you see your music going?", have a lesson where you make them practise to prove how much progress can be made in 1/4 hour, for example. Just see what happens, but I think I would not "give them the sack" myself.

That's true. OK - another dilemma looms - a couple of adult students only being able to have their lessons during the after-school slot. Then they suddenly cancel because of a work meeting or something. I'm going to have to tell them that if they cancel I can try and find them another slot (daytime preferably) but otherwise will need them to pay up because a termly-in-advance paying kid could have filled that slot.

I just hate having to be draconian and making busy people pay for missed lessons. I don't want a cold strictly business-like relationship with my students - any of them! It's just not me and I'm not comfortable operating that way. I guess I have to pay the price - which is suddenly being unexpectedly £22.00 down on my expected income that week. Or £44 if one adult gets stuck in a meeting and another one gets struck down by flu...

On the other hand a piano teacher friend of mine who hands out very strict contracts to all her new students has just lost a load of them at once. Perhaps it's swings and roundabouts?

Violinia



Susie that's very good advice, although if you ask a kid to show you how they practise they tend to show you an idealised version!

You're right about the individual attention in a non-threatening environment. On the one hand I'm meant to be a violin teacher not just someone to hang out with for half an hour after school, but on the other hand when they manage to finish telling me about the horrible day they've just had at school, and then focus and actually play something well you can see how good they feel about themselves just for that time. Also, I don't think you can separate music-teaching from the human factor - it's such a special thing. I used to confide in my violin teacher too. Still do, in fact - nearly 40 years on.

And on the other hand I'd so love it if all my younger pupils were as highly motivated as my current crop of adult students. But then many adults love to have something completely different from work to focus on when they get home, whereas so many kids are just longing to 'slob out', having been pressurised all day at school. Then they get mum going: 'come along darling - time for your violin practice!' just as the Simpsons starts.

Violinia

Yes, that thought occured to me too. If they've been bullied at school, how much further damage would be done by saying "I don't want to teach you any more"?

If it was me, I'd keep the ones I had and start a waiting list (ooh, how I'd love to have one of those!). Nevertheless, can you use the situation to get your non-practisers practising - explain that you've had potential new pupils, but have turned them down in favour of your current crop, who you hope they won't make you regret your decision by not practising (emotional blackmail? moi? ).


With or without contracts, one can lose several at once. I had a rotten week last year where one child received confirmation that she could have lessons at school, one adult decided she couldn't justify lessons when she wasn't practising, and a third (who had decided to move from the area) who sold her house quicker than expected.

That's exactly what I think.



Heh heh that's a good idea - especially if I say it with a pantomime growl.

It's also true that you can suddenly lose a whole lot at once for a host of reasons. Guess I shall have to carry on the same way, start a waiting list (?!?) and perfect my pantomime growl.

Violinia

I'd go with what you feel is right.
I know teachers who don't put up with non practisers and those who never sack anyone.
I recently had a 'maybe you want to think about whether X wants to continue her lessons because as things stand progress is almost non existent' talk and instead of losing the student there has been some improvement.

I don't think you have to worry about being draconian. You are obivously a very approachable, open person (from your posts in various threads). People will understand the situation, at the end of the day you need to make a living and £44 (I dread to think how much it would be euro!) is a lot...it would be more than my weekly grocery bill!

I never sack anyone, but do sometimes say, "You need to ask yourself how serious you are about your singing". Usually leaving is then by mutual consent, and no hard feelings. Keeps your reputation intact, too.

I don't think you should get rid of the ones that don't practice because I never used to be that 'in to' flute but then I suddenly started practising more and if my teacher had let go of me I wouldn't be in the position I am today - grade 8 honours and looking forward to studying for a music degree!

my teacher told me a story of someone who NEVER practiced but then she had a turning point, practising all the time and she went on to study at conservatoires in birmingham and paris!

Besides, you don't really want to show them the door, so don't.

Probably the most succinct bit of advice ever

I'm inclined to agree - you obviously don't WANT to give them the boot, and they both sound like they need all the encouragement they can get with school problems. Are either of them in a position to have ideas if you said "Is there anything you want to play that you would be willing to practise?" - stuff within their reach but that would require a bit more effort but that they'd be willing to make effort for, if that makes sense - though probably something you've already tried. Susie's idea of a lesson of practice is a great idea too - even if you managed to get one bit of constructive practice going - one good habit - then they would reap the benefit. I know I've said it before, but whilst many kids would forget everything you've said and go home and practise (or fail to) in the same old unhelpful ways, there are those (I was one of them as a child) who do want to get better but really do not have a clue how to practise well.

Anyway I'm not really in a position to advise with my little experience, but I can't help feeling you're doing these lads good by persevering with them, and it might be a boost to self esteem even to say to them "I'm keeping you on despite having others who want to have lessons with me". Even if neither of them ever takes off on the fiddle, I'm sure that a sympathetic ear and you sticking with them despite their lack of practice must do them good in the long term.

I think that's quite a valid point. I wouldn't want to sack someone who was getting something out of the lessons, but when you can say "I've turned down xxx people this week, and I need to feel you are making good use of the place" it sometimes focuses the mind a bit .

I wouldn't want to just get rid of people, but I think there is mileage in talking to the 'hangers on' who don't practice etc. about what they want / get out of lessons. If there really is no genuine interest of progress likely to be made, then it would seem best for both parties in the long term to part company.

David

I understand the dilema- but you CAN't Booth them. Thats not what education or music is about! Remember they (or their parents) are paying you for your services- teaching! Not you paying them so really it should be the students choice. I have three students for Theory. One is a dream and does everything he is told- the other two can be ###### when it comes to doing their work but i know i still love teaching them!!!!! Teachers who hand pick students are not real teachers- they just want to establish a name for themselves- and no wonder people would think they wre the best if they had all the best pupils!!! But these teachers are not real teachers or real educators- the real teacher stifes to get the BEST out of every pupil- no what WHAT that best is- whhetrher it be scrapping a pass or a distinction----- thats the real teacher. so PLEASE don't give up on these two- they'll thank you for it and you'' get a lot of satisfaction. No one ever said life was easy! Have hope and never give up!

Depends what the teacher and the pupil want to get out of the lesson - I for example know full well that with my piano lessons my progress is getting much slower and will probably get slower - I'm just not a pianist, and working on grade 5 pieces is reaching the limits of what I am capable of... I might one day reach beyond this level but from "not having played in 13 years to sort of G5 ish" has taken only a little over a couple of years, whereas "G5 ish to G6" will probably take me at least as long!! However I enjoy my lessons (I do practise, and yes there is a difference) and my teacher does too, so does my very slow progress matter that much in the scheme of things?

If Violinia likes these lads and feels they get something out of her lessons despite slow progress, then whilst checking they are still enjoying the lessons and wanting to continue is definitely a VERY good thing (if it's parents who are keeping them coming and they don't really want to be there, that's not much fun all round - and I don't think that (nicely!) pointing out that she's keeping them on through choice, not necessity, and would like to see them make use of the time is a bad idea either), if they're getting something out of the lessons even if it's not 100% musical (ie... a listening ear, some fun, feeling good about what they CAN do...) that's not wasted time IMO, even if they never make progress.

However I enjoy my lessons (I do practise, and yes there is a difference) and my teacher does too, so does my very slow progress matter that much in the scheme of things?

No, not in my book, Sarah. It's quite different from the child who eg is doing it to please a parent, or who really can't be bothered to put anything into the lessons, never mind practise, and is taking a place that a keener child would give a lot for.

Wow what a lot of interesting comments! Will come back and discuss later - there's some competition for the computer from my family at the moment..

Violinia

Oh definitely - if a child can't be bothered even in lessons or is being pushed into it by a parent, that's not much fun for anyone. (Been there, done that, bought the t shirt )... if they get something out of lessons though (and from what V has said, they seem to??) and the teacher isn't being driven over the edge by them...

I agree with everyone who's said "don't get rid of them!" Most children will begin to practise more when they really want to, usually because they want to learn to play a certain piece, or play in a concert, or pass an exam. A little chat about their goals, progress and what they'd like to learn to play would be great! I'm sure both boys really benefit from the one-to-one attention and the relationship with an adult outside of the family - I know my music lessons did me good even when I hadn't practised!

I've never announced that I'm going to stop teaching anyone, but on one occasion I've gently suggested to the parents that the child might be more suited to a different instrument, and another time I explained that I felt bad about taking money from the family every week when the child clearly had no interest in playing or practising. Both gave up shortly afterwards - I felt that they were going to anyway.

I try very, very hard not to "sack" students, however soul-destroying they are to teach! Often a good heart-to-heart discussion with parents (or pupil or both) results in a mutual "it's time to stop" decision.

I do think some children see me as their personal counsellor(!) and come for lessons because they enjoy 1:1 attention as much as the music bit. However, I think if that helps them (as well as studying music), so be it.

You have to go with your instincts because each of us is different and all our students are too.

I'd go along with what some others have said:

go with your feeling and the type of person you are.
I know that if I was a teacher I'd be the type of person who takes them all...I have a view that everybody deserves a good music teacher, those that practice and those that don't...although I do see why some teachers don't feel they should 'stick' with the more 'lazy' students.
The decision is really yours I guess, do what fits you best as a person and a music teacher.
Jo

i never knew teachers sack students, it they sack students, the brass and flute teachers in my school need to sack all of their students and the piano and guitar teachers need to sack 80% of their students.

i think you should keep on with them because it would really hurt them as they might have less confindent in the furture.

Thanks dublinflute, but it's a bit sweeping to say teachers who hand-pick their students 'aren't real teachers and just want to make a name for themselves'. Yes they do have all the best pupils and yes people do think they're the best, but perhaps they see themselves almost as 'specialist teachers' and are just happier (and best employed) operating that way.

I know several teachers of the 'specialist' variety - two of them sack right left and centre and the other one only teaches professional musicians - I don't see any of them as 'not real teachers' - perish the thought! They're fantastic teachers but they know what they do best - teaching at the higher levels; they'd be wasted doing anything else.

In other words, there's a need for both types of teacher - the real sticklers who strive for utter excellence in their students or else, and the cosier sort who offer violin tuition at several fifferent levels, with metaphorical tea and biscuits thrown in where needed. Even real tea and biscuits at times in the case of my two malingerers. I suppose in my case I'd like a mixture of both - real hard workers plus a few where I have to employ other faculties as well - and yes there's always the hope that the malingerers will suddenly look lively and decide to go for it. I live in hope.

Violinia

As a student, this seems fair enough to me and I don't see why they should object.



If they already have low self-esteem, I can't see that telling them to shape up or ship out would motivate them. Surely it would appear to them that you don't really want them and so have the opposite effect.



I agree with Sarah that this approach is likely to be more motivational.

In any event, they're "lovely lads", it's not as if they're rude or sullen in the lessons, and I can't help thinking that, from what I know of you (although I may be wrong), you would get (nearly) as much satisfaction out of helping them grow as individuals as you would developing their musical skills. It doesn't sound as if they're getting much help from anybody else on this front ...

Just a thought - you haven't mentioned the parents? Do the parents encourage the boys to practise? Do they even allow them to practise - I know it seems incredible but haven't there been posts where one or both parents can't stand the noise and don't allow the child to play at home?

I had one of these last week, Skylark!!!!

She is a new student, and it was her 2nd lesson and I asked how her practice went & she said "Mum hid the cord!" (It was only then that I found out that she has a keyboard, not a piano, which is fine at the moment, but good to know for the future). I said not to worry & that I'd talk to her Mum at the end of the lesson. Well, the first thing her mother did when I (very politely) mentioned it, was look at the child & say "you told!" I used the analogy of hiding her school books from her .. I think I made my point

that is TERRIBLE!! well done for putting that parent 'on the spot', I hope she realises what she's done and sees some sense.

I'm in the keep them camp. You know them better than us and, as someone else indicated, your heart seems to be telling you to keep them. Although I know that is not the point of this discussion, the other thing is at least they turn up and pay.

Thanks for all the advice and kindly comments - yes you're right, my heart is telling me to keep them on, but I may do a little bit of guilt-tripping ('I'm turning all these keen pupils down for you!) - won't do them any harm.

Skylark asked about their parents - one of them is a very chaotic doctor (yes my 'doc-mum' some of you may remember). She's very scatty so forgets to remind him to practise. There's also an extremely scatty au pair who usually brings him and picks him up at the end of the lesson. I've even taken to asking her to remind him to practise as she lives with them; she always says she will but then forgets, as she guiltily tells me the next week. It drives me bonkers. The boy also does an exhasuting range of other after-school activities but when asked by his mum, always insists he wants to carry on with violin.

The other boy also has an overstretched mother who always takes responsibility when he doesn't practise because she's aware he needs to be reminded. When she does remind him, he does it - but it's just not often enough! Believe it or not, this boy actually has a lesson twice a week - because he wants to - and on one of the occasions cycles all the way to my house (2 miles each way up and down steep hills ) with his violin on his back.

It's also occurred to me that these are both single mothers with 2 children who work hard and I think you need to be super-organised to do all that and be disciplined enough to make sure your children practise their instruments every day as well. No doubt both mums are exhausted at the end of the day (not to mention the kids) and if the children put up the slightest protest at the thought of practice, the mums are prone to give in for a quiet life.

It's noticeable that the children who practise the most usually come from well-organised families whose homes are run like clockwork. Or the kids are just highly self-discplined and motivated and do it without needing to be reminded. I have some like that and their progress is a foregone conclusion.

I'm actually really looking forward to next week when these two return and shall treat them as even more special having read and absorbed all your comments. Thank you.

Violinia

Oh yes.........


Having experience your hill.................... he must really enjoy his lessons!


Awww

I look forward to next week.

Me too.

Violinia

prehaps your right that two types of teachers are needed. I kow the one i am....and yeah maybe the 'specialists' are fantastic- but are they being challenged???????

OMG!! I don't get parents who don't encourage or enable their kids to practise. They're basically throwing their money away.

I have one who had no instrument for weeks. I kept cutting snippets out of papers for keyboards that only cost about £25 or £30 and giving them to him to give to his mum but it tooks ages for her to buy him a new one. And then the book got lost and she refused point blank to buy him a new one. I happened to have a spare one and he emptied his piggy bank to buy it out of his own money so he could carry on.

On topic, I just made the decision to sack a pupil. Never done it before.

But he wants to do Grade 7 and he never practises - he doesn't turn up half the time. He didn't come for the first three weeks of the term - I eventually caught up with him and asked him why he hadn't come - turned out he had left his piano books in China - he is a boarder at the school I work at. Didn't think to come and tell me. He said he'd start lessons again when he got his books back.

But I've had another kid who wants to start and the only slot I have free is the one this other student was taking. So I'm not holding it open for him. I haven't told him yet though.

I think the fact that the cyclist comes to you for a second lesson is a very important thing, especially as he does it under his own steam (probably steams as he comes through the door too!! ), and rather points to the fact that he really values his lessons - it also means I suppose that he's kind of getting supervised practice too except that you teach him new stuff.

I don't know which of these two is the 14 year old, but I think that you could also call on his sense of responsibility - he's 14 after all - and should be able to organise some practise time for himself especially if you prod him enough and discuss any possibilities he might have during the week.

Students of any level or ability can be challenging. I had a teacher a long time ago who was incredibly gifted at getting kids started - but generally passed more advanced students on... she could teach them, but she didn't want to and wasn't as good at it as she was with the new students, so she was wise and after giving them a great start, she passed them on to those who could build on the foundation she had laid. Other teachers don't have the patience for beginners: Probably best all round, then, if they don't take them on.

I know this is an off-the-wall suggestion, but could the boys help each other? Go to each other's houses and make a game out of practising together? I know there's all sorts of issues to consider first, but, well, it's just a thought...

Some great suggestions - thanks to all of you. Susie you're right about the supervised practice thing - having two lessons has made him progress more, but it could be so much more!

Yes the fact he's 14 means he should be able to supervise his own practice sessions, but he's not a very mature 14-year-old in many ways and has a few problems. The only time he ever practised like mad was when he decided he wanted to do Grade 1 a couple of years ago and he was terrified of failing. He came out of the exam in a terrible state because he was convinced he'd failed - and he got a good merit. This gave him a tremendous boost which lasted quite a while but has since worn off. He doesn't want to do any more grade exams; I think taking Grade 2 or even Grade 3 would give him another boost but in the end it's up to him.

He wants to play mainly Irish folk so this is what we do, complete with nice backing tracks etc etc. But every new piece throws him into despair because he thinks he'll never be able to play it. Then of course, with gentle persuasion and lots of encouragement of course he finds he can do it, and then you see a slow smile appearing on his face. Then he goes home and shows it off to all his family and becomes quite pleased with himself - but it's all very, very slow progress, because the same thing happens with the next piece, and so on.

It wouldn't be feasible to get the two boys to practise together because they live miles apart and are also very, very different in character as well as four years apart in age. Which needn't be an issue - but the main thing is they live so far apart. One of them lives on the other side of town to me and the other one lives right out in the country on the opposite side to the other boy.

It's OK - I shall carry on with them as before - lots of encouragement but also the odd dig about other students clamouring for their spot.

Violinia