Title says it all really. I have heard of this test as an way of testing musical aptitude when selecting pupils for lessons in school. The violin teacher in the same school first mentioned it to me but I have found only minimal info on it so far. I know it's to test pitch, rhythm etc., but how does it work, and how useful is it. Could I find an example of it online somewhere?

Found lots of results about it but not a direct link to what it is! Sounds interesting though.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&r...music&meta=

We watched an old BBC programme in class last year where a couple of teachers gave these musical apptitude tests to a class in order to select pupils to learn the violin with Yehudi Mehnuin (sp) I dont know where you would be able to find it.
I do know of quite a few people who have been through these tests desperately wanting to learn the instrument, but not passing the test and therefore not being allowed to learn that instrument. It's a shame.

I strongly believe in giving people the opportunity to play an instrument if they wish. It would be horrendous if they weren't even allowed to try. I remember failing a selection test for violin at school when I was 7 - I hadn't asked to learn, they tested the whole class & selected just 2 children as having aptitude. I didn't actually understand the questions, which were all to do with pitch, as I hadn't yet encountered "high" & "low" in music, but by the age of 10 I had taught myself to play the piano by ear & to sight-sing & ended up taking music professionally.

I think the best way to discover aptitude is to allow people to learn. Even if they don't show particular talent, they may achieve a lot by determination & perseverance. And even if they don't achieve a great deal, they may get a lot out of it & enjoy a lifelong appreciation of music.

I think I did that exact Google search possom and it looks good, but yes, not very specific.

I see what you are saying bevpiano and I myself failed one of those tests in primary 6, learned clarinet privately and got into music at uni eight years later. The main need for this test is where demand is greater than what can be offered. If this was not the case there would be no need to eliminate some to start with. I don't know how many will be asking.

My question is what the Bentley test involves, especially as no-one has found anything online about it yet.

well so far it looks like the people who failed the test have become professional musicians be that a teacher or a performer, so either this is an act of rebellion just to prove that you can learn an instrument, or the test is completely uneffective and those who fail should be given the chance to learn instead of those who pass. It would be interesting if anyone on here did one and got through and is still playing that instrument and to a high standard.

This sentence should be engraved above the entrance to all schools and places of learning...and on the hearts of all those who teach...

Yes, I would fully support allowing anyone who wants to learn the chance to do so. Indeed failing the test most likely means they are not musical enough yet to play an instrument, or not as musical as those who get chosen at that time.

Whether or not in an ideal world everyone had the chance to learn the instrument of their choice is irrelevant to peripetetic teachers who have limited time and resources at each school they visit. The government keep saying they will give every child free instrument tuition blah blah blah. The fact is it hasn't happened. I may well manage to accomodate everyone who shows an interest in this case. Maybe not. I have limitations to work round.

I started this thread to see if anyone had direct experiences of the Bentley test and exactly how it works.

When I worked for a county music service we were supposed to test pupils-to-be. I never did. I used to ask them if they would do some practice every day. The keen ones had a chance at lessons. I used to find that many of my piano pupils were tested at school and then offered second or even third instruments and that ones who had never played anything were overlooked, however much they wanted to learn. It was all very unfair.

Cyrilla, I always love your posts - always so wise!

I remember when doing the Mtpp course, our tutor saying it was our responsibility to develop our pupils' aural abilities, rather than to rest & reject them.

Aww, thanks, bevpiano - never been called 'wise' before!! I just loved what you said and think that it applies to all areas of learning, not just music.

As many people know, I'm a firm believer (mostly from experience, some painful and personal) in the fact that, all too often, aural is not taught, only tested - and, worst of all, that the results of those tests lead to labelling of students as 'unmusical'. Grrrrrr.

Apologies for going off-topic, Neil.

We do the Bentley test at school in year 7 and year 9. This gives the teacher a general idea of where each pupil is aurally and the test in year 9 gives and idea of the progress made by the pupil

The School I teach in used the Bentley test with all year 7s during their first music lessons in school. at the end of the year we had a department meeting about reviewing the schemes of work etc for each year and I made quite a case against the Bentley test - we don't use it anymore.

For those who have never experienced the delights of the test, it features a very scary (think old horror movie actors - sorry Mr Bentley) voice instructing you on each test, with each one being a selection of beeps or distorted organ tones. Pupils are required to determine which bleepy noises are higher and how many notes are heard in the chord etc. The problem was that the pitch test used electronic sound rather than actual pitches, and some of them were so close it was almost impossible for those outside of the canine species to discriminate between the noises! The organ notes were distorted and uncomfortable to listen to. The main problem is that this test is only available on vinyl or cassette - and after a while these analogue sources become warped and distorted slightly in their own right.

Ok, so I have dissed the actual tests, but that was not my main problem with it. The main issue for me was the mark scheme. Once you had marked the test, you referenced the score against several statements which would then summarise the child's potential. Some sentences were worded along the lines of:

this pupil has very little skill in the areas tested and therefore any extra effort taken to expose them to further musical experiences within lessons or extra curricular would be futile and a waste of time for all concerned

Yes, I'm paraphrasing here, I could find the exact mark scheme if anyone was particularly interested.. I'm sure it's still at school somewhere. I just found it all a bit old school really, and as a newly trained teacher - the mark scheme revealed a very narrow minded approach to assessment and an outdated view of school music. As someone else said, music should be for all, everyone should be able to experience music on a level playing field. I remember taking the test myself on admission to Grammar school - I seem to remember doing very well, and I do believe that it can be a good way to suggest to someone who has never thought of taking up an instrument that this could be something they would do well at... however, as I've said - there is a dangerous flip side to the whole thing.

Before I invite huge conflict between myself and those people who feel the test is positive - the above is mainly opinion, and those people who support the Bentley Test are of course more than entitled to theirs!!

...or possibly that they don't understand the test having not been exposed to the relevant information to understand what is being asked of them...

Bev, Cyrilla: Amen!

I remember playing with this one year when we had a music teacher at school and a few of us had some lunch time classes. I was about 15 at the time.
You'd have thought things might have moved on since then.

It's stating the obvious really but it's quite heartbreaking to think that children who are already disadvantaged by not having had their mothers sing to them from an early age will be further disadvantaged musically (and educationally overall, by extension) through failing the test. It's like that 'to those who have been given shall more be given, and those that have been taken away from shall more be taken away from' thing.

Understandable I suppose from the teacher's point of view but disasterous for the child.

Violinia

This sort of aptitude testing before allowing a child to start instrumental lessons is a bit like saying that you won't teach them something until they already know it.....

Yes, that's what I wanted to say last night but was too tired to find the words... exactly!

One of my pupils descibed her Bentley test as follows:

1. You wait in a room with your parents

2. A lady collects you 10mins before your time.

3. You practise for 10mins in your own room.

4. The examiner collects you.

5. You go to a separate room with examiner and are asked what school you go to, etc.

6. You play your piece or two pieces.

7. Lady plays a note without you looking at the piano – you have to guess what it is. She then tells you, and asks you another note nearby to see if you can get that right.

8. You go back to parents.

9. Lady collects you and takes you to the hall where you sit at small desks.

10. You answer 60 questions which you don’t need to prepare for, from a tape, for about 30minutes.