One of the threads in the Diploma forum raised the question of why people take a Diploma, but the question about taking exams applies to everybody so I'm posting the question here for discussion in the General Music Forum so that people who aren't Diploma holders feel as if they can contribute to the discussion.

So as Christine Morris suggested - what motivates all of us to do exams, and how and what do we use them for?

Also teachers - how do parents view music exams? Does the motivation for your pupils to do exams come from you, the parents or the pupils themselves?

For me as a student, it had never occurred to me to do exams until my teacher suggested it, because as a complete beginner at learning music, I didn't even know there were exams. But now I wouldn't like not to do exams. They give me a goal, a sense of direction and a feeling of achievement.

If I didn't do exams, I suspect I would be less motivated to hone a piece to "perfection", or at least to as near perfection as my skill allows. Does it matter whether you hone a piece to perfection if you're not going to be a professional orchestral performer. I don't know .... I'm thinking about it now .... what does everyone else think?


As far as Theory goes, I don't need to do Theory exams at the moment but I just enjoy learning theory and doing the exams. I guess that's partly why I'm learning the clarinet - I just enjoy the learning process and I suppose the exams confirm that I'm succeeding bit by bit.

I like having a goal to work towards. I also find it makes learning an instrument seem less overwhelming when it's broken down into stages like that.

I enjoy the process of seeing what's on the new syllabus and choosing what I'm going to play.

Finally, because I'm self-taught, they give me some idea on my progress.

I hadn't thought of it that way, but yes I agree with what you've said. It's a bit like having loads of work to do, and the best way of tackling that is to break it up into piles or separate lists which are then more manageable.

I'm with you on choosing the pieces as well. I've already looked at the pieces right up to G8 and my medium-term ambition is to get to G6 and play the "Tribute to Artie Shaw". I just hope they haven't taken it off the syllabus by then I could of course just learn to play it anyway, but to come back to a point I made earlier, would I "hone it to perfection" if I wasn't learning it for an exam, and would it matter? I don't think I've got the perspective to properly assess whether it matters or not, so I'd be interested in hearing the views of more experienced players or teachers

My eldest in common with Skylark needs the incentive of exams to keep her motivated and practising, but particularly as encouragement to perfect pieces. Thia hasn't always been the case, but in year 10 with GCSE assignments it's the extra push of exams that keeps her going, it is her choice to do them so she has to put the effort in for someone that doesn't want to persue music as a career. Her teacher also needs this motivation to move her forward.

My youngest daughter, it's simple she enjoys them, practising isn't a chore for her (she will practise every thing she gets including pieces from ensembles, band and orchestra) and the difficulty of the pieces for the next grade encourages her to learn new skills for a specific purpose. At the moment she wants to be a musician so getting the qualifications is important process towards that goal. Taking the exams gives her confidence to try harder stuff and work things out for herself and makes her secure in Orchestra as her grade now reflects the level she needs to be playing Oboe at senior level. It wouldn't be good to get to year 10 or 11 and be bogged down with music exams to get into college so doing them sooner is preferable to doing them later.

As a parent I realise that my girls are motivated to take exams for different reasons and I'm prepared to support that. I always talk to them about taking exams and what the consiquences of doing so are, in the end it's their decsion. I would rather they did the exams than not do them as it generally helps to move up in bands and orchestra (more important for some instruments than others in our area), bit only at the right time and if they are capable of achieving it without undue pressure. I like the way Music works, if everyone needs a certificate as proof of their standard at least there is a basis for promotion, which is fair.

Just to clarify, I didn't mean to imply that I don't enjoy playing just for the love of it - I started learning the clarinet so that I could play the music that I enjoy listening to and would still do this even if it wasn't for exams. But I think the exams encourage me to keep improving rather than, as now, being able to play the music I like to some extent, but just not very well ...

These are my reasons as to why I don't take music exams.

When I was at school I learnt to play clarinet in the typical 20 minute shared weekly lesson with theory crammed in as well. Even though it was a large school during most of my time there there were no class music lessons and it wasn't possible to do 'O' or 'A' level music. I managed to do reasonably well and passed grade 5 theory the Easter before my O-levels and grade 6 clarinet the following term. I'm reasonably academic and got a string of grade A O-levels but I think my grade 6 pass gave me a greater feeling of satisfaction because I'd had to work harder to achieve it. During my lower 6th year U worked on the pieces, scales etc for grade 7 and was just about ready to take it in the first term of my upper 6th year. During the summer holidays I'd played lots of other stuff - other pieces or movements in music I'd got for exams and thought about the exam process. I was doing science and maths A-levels, and it suddenly occurred to me that I didn't need to do music exams as well. When I went back to school my clarinet teacher had changed - this one was primarily a clarinettist instead of a flautist/pianist. I talked to him about how I felt and we spent the year working on stuff I wanted to play instead of just for exams. It was probably my most enjoyable year musically and I think I started to really listen to and understand the music for the first time. In some ways it would have been nice to get grade 7 and maybe even push ahead and try for grade 8, just to say I'd done it, but I wouldn't have given up that year for anything and I don't think my playing would have progressed nearly as much.

Fast forward 20 years and I have no intention of doing any saxophone exams, partly because the classical exams don't really interest me and I'm ambivalent about the way the jazz exams are set up. For me, personally, I have no problems setting my own goals and don't need exams as an incentive to practise - seeing the progress I can make with focussed practice is a far better incentive than a deadline in my eyes. I explore lots of different repertoire, mostly prompted first by listening to and enjoying a particular style, composer, piece etc. I'm a bit of a perfectionist so I do tend to get things I'm working on up to a pretty good standard for my own satisfaction. I don't miss out on the rounded musician bit of exams either - I practise scales religiously (a necessity for jazzers), I do some reading along with the improvising, my aural skills are developed by the playing by ear and transcribing of solos that I do and I've learnt a fair amount of theory/functional harmony in analysing chord progressions and working out what sorts of scales fit with them. The only thing I feel I'm missing is something to put in the box on application forms saying what standard my playing is!

I'm in no way trying to dismiss the value of music exams, it's obvious from reading these fora that they are a great motivator for many people, I'm just trying to express an alternative point of view.

As an adult I find it easier to justify spending a couple of hours at the piano if I am doing an exam. When I am not doing an exam I get worried they think it is all a bit self indulgent. Now I have done grade 8 I notice some people think it a bit odd that I still spend so much time at the piano!

One of my reasons for taking back up the viola was to finally get around to doing my Grade 8 (I had previously prepared for it but never took the exam).

By "doing my Grade 8", I mean more than just taking the exam though. What I really want is to spend a good amount of time working on repertoire development and technique (and scales!) before I even consider looking at the exam pieces - basically I'd like to feel confident that I have reached a certain level as a player before I do the exam for paper confirmation of that.

I agree, one of the things I also like is looking ahead at the exam syllabus and and trying to pick what I think would be a good programme of pieces to play, as (let's face it) exams are one of my few opportunities to play in front of people I don't know (certainly for solo viola stuff anyway). I suppose one of the benefits of exams that I find is that they force me to think about things/areas of music that I wouldn't have to think about normally or might even consciously strive to avoid, and I think that can contribute to the learning experience, when used properly of course

Sorry Skylark I know you love playing music, My eldest enjoys it too, but needs the extra motivation to perfect pieces (rushing and posting doesn't work). She would also play inspite of exams, and did so with Recorder for a long time, but is struggling because of school work.

For me grade 8 is more of a new beginning than the end.

That would be my feeling about it too. It's something I'd like to have as lots of amateur orchestras seem to require it, but there's so much more beyond it in terms of where you can take your own playing among other things. It's more of a door opener than anything else in many ways

Personally I think that when doing some of the earlier exams, 'perfecting' the pieces is very important, as it is helping you learn your theory too, musical phrases, Latin/German/French texts, key signatures etc. If the piece is learnt to 'perfection' then when it is played in an exam situation, the student will be able to show off what he/she has learnt and also learn more from the exam results.

As to whether it matters after all exams are done, I think that depends on what you are doing. As a 'wannabe organist' I can't spend all my time practising every single hymn, chant, anthem and voluntary to perfection, there just isn't enough time. I play the hymns and chants to a standard I am happy with (and I know I can get away with ) and I spend more time on anthems and voluntaries, as these are where the organ is usually by itself. In an orchestra situation, I imagine that the ability of the players theory means that the piece can be learnt (the theory side of it) by just looking through the piece. The player can see where it is quiet, loud, stoccato, crescendo, Allegro etc. etc. and can do this straight away, the music then can be learnt very quickly.
Thats guessing as i have never played in an orchestra.

A lot of commitment outside of the orchestra is important too.

Keet
x

I agree about the new beginning; I did G8 clarinet at school (ever so many years ago!) and have never played it again, or wanted to. Now, starting again with the violin: exams feel a much more meaningful way to becoming a musician by validating progress etc, rather than the end in itself which was how it was for many of us at school.

Sorry! Am having to use ancient typewriting thingy as current one gone wrong. Big hitch - neither of the two characters after 'j' are functioning! I must be creative...

I agree that exams can be a great motivator but can you imagine a budding writer who needs to do writing exams because he can't be motivated to write otherwise? What can't writers wait to do in their spare time? Get writing! Or do dancers need exams before they practise their routines? I'm aware there are dance exams but if you adore dancing nothing gets in your way and you don't need exams to motivate you.

I'm aware grade exams are an indicator of standard, but what's wrong with an audition?

Being demon's advocate here perhaps...

The one who performs on the diminutive stringed instrument and is named after it too.

Going to start off by copying my answer from the other thread:


Exams definitely give a good reason to really work on a piece and perfect it - I guess they also give motivation to work on the other aspects that one needs for an exam. But my main reason for doing exams, on the rare occasion that I do them, is to disprove self doubt & as benchmark for "I really can play at this level"

Violinia: your label for yourself made me laugh I hope you get your letters back soon.......

Hubby just came home with new keyboard thank goodness. I'd never realised so many words contain k and l. You learn something every day!

Violinia

Yes I agree grade 8 is a new beginning and there is still a lot to learn BUT I was talking about other people's perceptions, not my own. Am I the only one with a family who sometimes feels guilty about spending so much time practising?

I never felt guilty about practising even when my children were younger.
Maybe it helped that I didn't have to go out to work full time, I was a dinner lady from when my youngest started school so was at home on my own most of the day.

I agree with Violinia here. I think it is rather sad that some people can only get motivated to practise by exams. Where is the pleasure of finally being able to play something the way you want it to sound? You practise because you know what you want to achieve. You play scales and other technical exercises because you believe that they are a way of getting closer to being able to produce the interpretation you have in your mind. You perfect a piece because you want it to be perfect, not because a stranger is going to give you a mark for it.

Reading posts on the forums (not so much this thread but the forums in general) and talking to friends with children in the UK I sometimes get the impression that people do exams partly because it has become the socially acceptable thing to do.

I am in France so I am not subject to the same pressures (if they do exist) and went through an exam phobic stage as a teenager where I refused to do any for several years so I'm not really a great fan of exams anyway. I suppose (like a few other people on this thread) that I might consider an exam if it was an absolute necessity to get into an orchestra. At the moment, the only reason I would like to know what grade I am playing at is because I would like to go on an oboe course and they specify approximate grade levels. However, I think a consultation lesson with a UK based teacher would probably be just as good a way of getting an idea of my level in ABRSM terms (and I wouldn't have to sing ).

Like Sbhoa I never feel guilty about practising. Do people feel guilty about watching TV? (I don't have one). Music is the only thing I have for myself (the forums are a recent addition ) and I need to play music to unwind and stay sane.

I don't know much about writers but I suspect they don't need exams as they can re-visit the same piece of work time and again improving and adding to it. I do know about dancers, I don't know how to respond to the comment with out writing an essay. Dancing is different to music and there are several motivations and if you think musicians have to practice and work then so do dancers. They are also motivated by exams, festivals and concerts. You might see them in compettion with a smile on their faces or just gliding round the ballroom but the amount of effort it will have taken to get that far is enormous. Like musicians they will always be striving for perfection, however it is easier to cover up mistakes and improvise because we don't all know the dance in the same way we would a piece of music. dances are always bespoke invented by the teacher to play on the particular strengths of the group or soloist. They will also have lots of repertoire on the go at any one time including grade exams, group and individual comps and show work. It's mainly older people who will dance purely for enjoyment.

The big difference between dance and music is subjectivity, for children to move up at orchestra they have to be of a certain standard which is usually measured in the grades. I suspect that's why grades have become important. As well as due to the fact that even though the pieces are not exactly equal in difficulty one grade 1 will have the same choices as another Grade 1 in the same instrument and it's fair to say they are not dis-similar between boards(or more alike than dance). I prefer the Music system personally as it's more transparent.

Dancers have more freedom to put themselves into the dance, they can use facial expression, eye contact with the judges and gesture to sell the dance in ways musicians can't. Even given that they share some commonality in performing to judges, having more than one exam board and going for grades. There will be big differences in standard between the early dance exams from school to school and in the 1 dances. There are also rules about age of candidates to take an exam, for instance Grade 5 Ballet has a set age to protect young children from over streaching. Dancers will spend much more time with their teachers in a group or 1 to 1 situation than musicians do, if they want to win in competitions they will also practice at home In our experience dance is much more competitive. There are other exams called Grade or level depending on exam board and these come with a tape or required elements but you can get certificates and move up without doing these, others will do both. You will also have strong relationships between some teachers and some examiners so there is not always the objectivity. Before everyone shouts this is not their experience or common to their style of dancing, it is what we found in our area in several dance styles.

Keri at the moment your children are young and I have no knowledge of the education system in France. Again from personal experience the constant pressure of course work throughout the GCSE option years is why the exams in Music are needed to practice to perfection, for some people at that time. As it would become all too easy to put the instrument away until later (if you are not studying music) and for it never to come out again. I'd rather that my eldest daughter found time to practice for an exam than put her music aside. I see it as a worthwhile hobby and feel that the pieces need to be worked on to get to the best standard possible and not just for the result or the certificate. I want her to keep her music as, it's something she enjoys, it is also like Ranger Guides, a good way to socialise now and in the future and something not to be abandon when she is snowed under with coursework.

Being able to say to someone that I'm G7 or whatever and them going 'Wow.........'!

In my opinion the French system leaves less time for children to do other things from a very young age. School hours are longer for a start 8.30 to 4.30 from age 3 to 11, 8.00 to 5.00 (or sometimes 6.00) in secondary school and they have homework (sometimes as much as an hour a night) from when they are aged six.

Actually, I was thinking more about my own music when I was a teenager. As I said, I refused to do any exams from when I was about 14 to when I was about 17 (and before then I had never done more than one a year, alternating piano and violin). When I was in the sixth form I used to practise the piano for at least two hours a day (more at weekends), getting up early to do half an hour or so of scales before I went to school. This was purely self-motivated. I changed piano teachers when I was sixteen and one of my piano teacher's aims was to make me an independent learner (he knew I wasn't going to make a career of music but wanted me to be able to continue getting pleasure from music even when I had stopped having lessons). I eventually let myself be talked into doing grade 6 (he wanted me to do grade 7) and then chickened out of actually sending off an entry for grade 8 in the Upper sixth. I don't think having the grade 8 piece of paper would have made any difference in my playing since then and nor have I felt any burning desire to take it since and finish what I once started. I explored a huge amount of repertoire with him during my sixth form years, some pieces I perfected, some I didn't and he was careful to teach me how to think about how to practise to perfect them (if that makes sense). He enabled me to discover what I liked playing and what I didn't and equally importantly, to say why I liked some pieces and disliked others. I learnt far more from him than I would have done had we just concentrated on exam pieces. My one regret is that I didn't have him as a teacher for longer.

Oh dear, this sounds so much like the misconceptions of what adults should or shouldn't do. Why shouldn't adults indulge themselves? We don't become different people just because we are no longer children. Go ahead and enjoy, .....and stuff what others expect you to be or do!!


Now that's what I call a school 'day'. None of this mamby pambying between 9 and 3, or even 2.30 pm(!!) in some schools near me. No wonder they don't learn anything in the UK education system, the hours are too short.... and then they whinge about one hour of homework even at aged 10.

Goodness, it's a good job MY keyboard hasn't got that problem!!!

I'm doing grade 3 cello in three weekd time - mostly my cello teacher's idea as she believes in having something to work towards once a year. Most of her students do either an exam or a performance assessment and the fact that it's held at her house makes it much more user-friendly. As an adult I can set my own agenda - I don't just play my exam pieces, but prepare for Forums concerts and orchestra (I've recently been invited to join a concert orchestra preparing Beethoven's Symphony no 1 in October, which is proving easier than the music at the weekly sessions at my local orchestra). I also like to explore the wealth of pieces in the books I own - none at a particularly high level, but giving me enough challenge at this level, and it's great for sight reading. I love playing scales, which are indispensible for string players. Exams are just part of what I do, and don't cause undue stress, which is how I think it should be.

With my piano students I use my discretion when suggeting the exam route. Some children need a goal to work towards and it develops qualities of persistence and determination. With others I wouldn't suggest exams at all - it would be counter-productive and cause unneccessary worry and stress. Some parents view passing exams as a way of "keeping up with the Joneses", an attitude which I discourage as much as possible - they do not have the child's best interests at heart.

>>I agree that exams can be a great motivator but can you imagine a budding writer who needs to do writing exams because he can't be motivated to write otherwise? What can't writers wait to do in their spare time? Get writing! Or do dancers need exams before they practise their routines? <<

I've been writing for pay for nearly 30 years now, so here goes: writers don't take exams because they are
too arrogant and too lazy!

Now, just to prove that I'm not in fact qualified to do what I have been doing for 30 years, here are some disorganized thoughts on the significance of exams and the quantification of music performance skills.

Aprt from the perfectionist, disciplined nature of musicians versus the slack and amoral ways of performers of other arts, there is another reason why musicians are so subject to exams and assessments, one which has a lot to do with what happened to music while we shut our eyes for a century or two: creative freedom.

Notice that ballroom dancing may be both the most competitve aspect of dancing and also the least creative. By creative, I don't intend a value judgement. I simply mean the difference between writing or dancing in forms that are considered to be malleable, and dancing or performing music entirely from established repertoire. Where are the grade exams in rap? The standards shift too fast for any "syllabus" or "examiners" to retain credibility - the only valid assessments, as always for live performance, are crowd-pulling power, glitterati status, and sales!

And where are the grade exams in ring-tones? The growth of sound reproduction has divorced the performance from the performer in a way that was only just beginning 100 years ago, and which has, predictably, led to performance becoming a commodity which can be assessed and graded. It has also led to certain musical commodities and their manufacturers becoming extremely overvalued or devalued, and forced the common consumer out of the world of "high end" commodities such as classical music.

I think the question is, why do we value performance skills (and quite narrowly-defined performance skillls too) so highly in classical or "art" music? 100 years ago, readings of "canonical" poetry and prose were quite common, and sure enough, they were often fodder for children's performances. We could indeed have grade exams in the composition and reading of sonnets, or the correct rendition of landscapes...if those skills were still valued. The fact that we do still value performance skills in classical music is no doubt why we like our children to learn music - beacuse we are still anxious for children to gain physical and manual skills, though we prefer urban pursuits to skinning bears. And being thoroughly modern parents, it is not enough for us to think that our kids are doing OK, we have to do it by the manual and get a stamp of approval - hence the popularity of grade exams for children, even as their parents play orchestral instruments and listen to orchestral music less and less!

For some reason (especially in western cultures) we have arrived at the strangest dichotomy in arts - some arts are supposed to be 100% original creativity, and visual artists are not allowed to admit to learning so much as the technology of their craft from somebody else, while the merest suggestion of influence or resemblence is the kiss of death for a creative writer's reputation. Conversely, in classical music it has become almost unheard of for performers to create new repertoire or to make major alterations to items in the canon. No wonder that we obsess so much over the technical skills of performance - there is nothing else left that is under a classical musician's control.

My rather gloomy view is that classical music (outside movie/game music) has become obsessed with exams and competitions precisely because it is fossilized. I think it's going the way of Noh, and for the same reasons - Noh drama was originally the private passion of an important man, and classical music was hitched to the church, but both were taken over by hangers-on and pillars of society ambitious of being worshipped, and as the public assessment of pomp and circumstance has declined, so have the "state" art forms that generated them. If classical traditions survive in movie and game music, it is as a symbol of everything mythic and larger than life, I assume.

>>I'm aware grade exams are an indicator of standard, but what's wrong with an audition?<<

Auditions aren't portable! Auditions (and competitions) are EVERYTHING in Japan - but you can't really use a "passed" audition or a regional-level competition achievement for something that nobody outside Japan has ever heard of as a qualification for university entrance or musical job-hunting in other countries!

In Viohazard's case, he now wants to take certain grade exams to prepare himself for studying music in English at tertiary level, and also as a qualification for that study. However, I am the one who first suggested it to him and to his teachers, and I am the one who does the entry forms. ABRSM is not widely known, and the focus here is on European or US musical education, so teachers have no hesitation in voicing their frank assessments of the syllabus! Usual comments include things like too many rarely-used scales with little technical challenge in the fingering, and if scales are so important from the point of view of technique, where are the standard etudes? They are quite positive about the emphasis on sight-reading, but usually not experienced in teaching it until fairly late in musical development. The breadth of the syllabus is pretty much lost on them, because neither music nor recordings are readily available, so they have little chance to assess unfamiliar works from the point of view of suitability for the candidate.

The technical requirements and syllabus give a different picture of musical education - and the strings syllabus is surprisingly different from the standard repertoire studied in Japan (also true for guitar, but not so markedly). Doing the grade exams in a different country therefore broadens and "evens" out Viohazard's musical education. However, if grade exams weren't useful as a qualification, I probably wouldn't encourage him - Grade 8 will cost us 3 times as much as it does in the UK (understandably so, but still money that has to be paid be ME ), so while I value the educational aspect, I am afraid that that alone would not be enough to prise open my purse!

So can musicians... eg the slow movement of Mozart's clarinet concerto is set for G6 but you could bet that all the pros out there who perform the whole concerto don't play the middle movement the same as they did when they were grade 6 standard clarinetists...

I wasn't meaning musicians can't revisit work. Writers will have something tangible to work on, they can take it apart elaborate on it whenever they desire. I know musicians can record their work, but it's not really the same as having a hard copy in the way writers have, unless they are composers.

I would also add that most of the writers I know actually work to deadlines. Those tend to be a fairly effective factor in motivation

[quote name='AmandaL' date='Feb 27 2007, 10:52 PM' post='471644']
[quote name='kate bush fan' post='471255' date='Feb 27 2007, 01:11 PM']As an adult I find it easier to justify spending a couple of hours at the piano if I am doing an exam. When I am not doing an exam I get worried they think it is all a bit self indulgent. Now I have done grade 8 I notice some people think it a bit odd that I still spend so much time at the piano![/quote]Oh dear, this sounds so much like the misconceptions of what adults should or shouldn't do. Why shouldn't adults indulge themselves? We don't become different people just because we are no longer children. Go ahead and enjoy, .....and stuff what others expect you to be or do!!]


Thank you! I do sometimes need to be reminded a bit of indulgence is healthy!

I agree a lot of exams is about social acceptance - when you say you play an instrument people will often ask what grade you are at. Now I have done all my grades it is easy to see that in reality it is only a tiny hint of where you are may be musically. I left school feeling a failure musically at grade 3 and inadequate to all my friends who had taken higher grades. I think there is something wrong with an exam system that makes people feel like that, after all most people will stop at grade 2, 3 and it takes a lot of work to get to that point. I needed to prove to myself and perhaps others that I could do grade 8 because of the criticism I got as a child. I am not sure this competitive side of music is at all healthy for most people. In a way post grade 8 for me is a new beginning because I can just enjoy music and put all those comparisions behind me

Exams give you something to aim at and sometimes the pressure of exams makes you play well. However I do think that some people think that music exams say that you are a musician of x standard but to be a musician you ahev to play musically and emotionally sometimes and exams don't always promote this. Then there are other people who think that when you reach grade 8 you just stop taking lessons because thats the highest exam in the grading system. I got a grade 8 honours but I still know there are so much more things to be learnt and developed.

My son is motivated partly by what he sees as the achievement of reaching grade 8, tho he hasn't done many grade exams. And he seems genuinely to like some of the viola pieces in the syllabus, which are lovely. But then again he could well have encountered them anyway. He's very much a scientist, so perhaps having a number that he can reference himself by appeals to him. At any rate, grade 8 seems to be giving him a short-term goal in the much longer timeframe of the Suzuki viola repertoire.

My daughter is quite the opposite. She is entirely unmoved by the whole exam set-up or by any peer pressure, and enjoys the sense of progression and achievement she gains from the Suzuki repertoire plus etudes and scales. She has done one grade exam - grade 1 - and takes a wicked pleasure in replying 'grade 1' when people ask her what grades she's done. She then watches their puzzlement, given that she is a good violinist, music scholarship holder, in national orchestra etc. She has no intention of doing any further grade exams on either of her instruments. The money we save on not doing exams we can use for more enjoyable things!

Since neither child intends to study music at university, they don't need grade exams for entry purposes.

I have just taken up classical guitar - also by the Suzuki method It's early days yet, but I can't see myself doing grade exams - although again there are some nice pieces in the syllabus, and I might plunder it for ideas once I'm at the stage of extending out from the core Suzuki repertoire. Basically I'm motivated by wanting to play certain pieces that I love, and wanting to play them well, without the intermediary of an exam process.

Suzukimom

I know I'm coming to this late, in part because I've been thinking about it. I have discovered that I like structured learning. I left university in 1998, and in 2000 I took my first Open University course. I love to learn, and it's very good in keeping my mind occupied (when I'm not learning, I tend towards getting a little obssessive, or over-thinking unimportant things, or writing ludicrously long repies on a forum, and so on). I could learn stuff on my own, but I like having the guidance of what to learn and the objective measure of coursework and an exam result.
Because my OU sutff is studying for 'no reason', I so far have about half a humanities degree, plus an undergrad certificate in astronomy and planetary science. I'm a bit random, easily distracted in to another subject area, but that's the joy of it. And it's of no consequence at all if I give it up for a year or ten, or if I fail the exam, etc.

I thought very seriously about taking the OU's music course. I knew that I hadn't done music for a long time, so I'd need to get my theory up to speed and remember how to find my way around a keyboard. This led to me taking G3 theory a few years ago (I can't remember off the top of my head, though at least I do actually have the certificate for this one at home - 2003?). My intention was to be at G5 by the time the course started.
In the end, I didn't take the OU course - because it has a one-week residential school, it is one of the more expensive courses. I decided that I couldn't afford it, and in any case the residential school idea was giving me panics before I'd even booked the course. While I could get medically excused form the residential school if I really needed to (panic disorder/agoraphobia), I'd still have to pay the full course cost - and I just didn't have the money. So, I didn't take any more theory exams, as I no longer "needed" them.

January 2007, re-discovery of music via my recorders. I'm loving just being surrounded by music, even if I'm not playing. Quite often I'm sitting at work, doing work on one screen with a pdf of a bit of music on my other screen - just read the music, think about the fingerings, etc (I get a lot of time sitting around just watching as things compile/import/export - I make good use of it!)
I've re-devoured my AB guides to music theory (which I bought when contemplating the grade exams prior to the OU course). I'm tempted to do G4 in the summer, because, well, why not? It's fun I really enjoy the challenge of having something specific to work for that will be marked. If I just had to learn for me, then I could skip the difficult bits. I mean, why would I ever need to know how to compose a rhythm carrying on from a double-dotted quaver? When I clap rhythms, I'm OK to quaver level, and sometimes get a bit lost with semi-quavers (I have to tell myself instead of '1-and-2-and' it's '1-an-an-an-2-and' etc!). Add dots to quavers and I'm easily bemused But that doesn't matter, I don't need to play anything with double-dotted anythings in. And a rhythm to words, well, I'd just make it out of crotchets, quavers and minims, if I had to make one at all. I'm not a songwriter, I don't need that skill
But, if you do an exam, you have to do the difficult bits as well as the easy bits. And so you learn the hard parts, and they become easier, or they make sense, and it adds to overall musical ability in some way (e.g. if I see something with double-dotted quavers in, I may become able to hear the rhythm in my head, rather than having to hear somebody else play it first.)

For practical exams, it's more difficult. I'd probably enjoy taking practical exams just as much as I do the theory exams and the OU work. I can teach myself pieces, and have the CDs to know what something is 'supposed' to sound like - the technical, music-playing part of an exam really doesn't bother me at all.
The real problem for me - and I know this is completely silly - is the people-side of it. I'd need an accompanist, where do I find one of those? OK, there are websites, I can email an accompanist, find out prices, etc, before I commit to anything. Or would I be better with a teacher; I'm sure I would, just to make sure I'm playing 'right', that I'm aiming myself at the right level, and so on. And to make sure that I'm not going to completely humiliate myself on the day by actually playing dreadfully for the level I'd entered myself at! But there's finding a teacher, contacting them, finding out if I like them, how much do they cost, how often do they think I need lessons, do they do AB exams or do they use 'the other lot' (and does that matter to me, and if so why?), etc.
All this paragraph is really an excuse, it's the "phoning a stranger" part that's scary Would the teacher think I'm silly, would my husband think I'm silly, I'll tell you what, I'll just play for myself at home and at my local SRP...
The pleasure of playing is what I want from music - the joy of music itself. While I may learn better in a structured setting, of which exams are undoubtedly a significant part, at the moment I'm happier doing that for myself (I can do G2 descant scales now!)

So, um, I should have a conclusion after all of that, shouldn't I? What do I / would I get out of exams - a defined level of achievement, a structure to my learning that I enjoy and could otherwise be missing, and the challenge of working on the difficult bits that it's very easy to skip when you just do-it-yourself.

I guess for me taking exams is more of a cnfidnece thing. I can have as many people as there are in the world tell me I'm good at something, and I still won't believe them. The Grade certificate for me allows me to accept that those people are right and I can actually play. It proves that I've achieved something, because at the end of the day I don't really care what other people say, I need to know what I really can do, and an exam is the best way I've got at the moment to do that.

If you read the "the hardest thing about being an adult learner" thread you'll discover that you are NOT alone in this!


*nods* - vindication of your hard work, acknowledgment that you can play at a certain level.

Maizie, a lot of the things you said make sense to me too. The logo of the college where I have my lessons (Yorkshire College of Music & Drama) says "for the love of learning and the pleasure of playing" and you've used exactly those phrases - it just about sums it up for me too

I'm with TSax. Exams are not for me. However, I totally respect that exams offer structured learning, motivation for polishing, a sense of achievement, a get-in card for orchestras and a well-rounded education for people who do them. Another reason for exams was given me by a friend of mine: he gets to evaluate whether the teacher he pays to teach his children, is doing the right thing by them.

I work fairly long hours and everything I do is evaluated by someone, moreover, I spend quite a lot of time evaluating others.
So it is important for me to have something that is NOT evaluated. Also, I counted how many exams I did from O levels (equivalent) to post-PhD and it was over 100!!!! That's way too many exams already. I don't need any more to feel qualified/worthwhile/respectable

My sense of achievement comes from a happy sigh from a listener when I play something for them. I am getting a well rounded musical education by virtue of being curious and seeking to be well-informed about what I am playing and listening to. I am naturally self-motivated, in fact mildly obsessive. I would over prepare any exam. The structured learning is provided by the teacher, and here everyone gets the benefit of having graded syllabus material. I play piano so joining an orchestra is not a possibility.

So if I were not working, would I take an exam in order to benefit from the opportunity to get stressed by it? (I'm serious, total lack of stress is not good for personal development). One major problem is I suffer all the effects of dyslexia when sightreading, I find it extraordinarily difficult. I was interested in the comments in an earlier post, to the effect that sightreading came later in a natural (i.e. exam free) development as I live in hope it will happen if I keep at it. I also read with interest the comments of posters who benefitted hugely from a year exploring repertoire.

My goal is to be able to play. I'd rather be able to play for myself and my friends than have what many adults seem to have: a certifcate in a drawer that said they could play once a long time ago.

Different views on here.
On 22nd March I'm doing Grade 5 piano, but I haven't done an exam on it since Grade 1, though the piano is my 1st instrument. I didn't like the exam the first time round, but this time I have found it has given me a sense of structure which for the time being is great. I don't think I am going to want to go straight onto my Grade 6 afterwards though. That's just the way I take it, exam, break of a few years, then a bit more structure again.