In September I took a new pupil, a dear little girl of 8. She had been learning at school in a group and wasn't making much progress, so the mother found me and asked me if I'd take her on. I had a space so started teaching her. As it happened I know the peri who was teaching her at school.

Nearly six months have gone by; she's progressed very well and everyone's happy - the child, her parents and me. Then yesterday during the course of her lesson it emerged to my absolute shock that she's still having the lessons at school!!! She brought some scales for the Preliminary TG exam and asked me to help her with them as she didn't understand them. I was a bit baffled as to how she had come by them and that's how it emerged.

When her mother arrived I laid my cards on the table and told her I hadn't realised she was still having violin lessons at school - it turns out she's been doing two lots of practice all along and I just hadn't realised as nobody had told me. The mother seemed sure she had told me from the start but it must be one big misunderstanding as I really didn't have a clue.

They told me the other teacher knows she's having lessons outside school and doesn't mind; one of the other children in her school violin group is also having outside lessons and apparently the teacher doesn't mind about that either.

I, however, feel really weird about it!

I don't want to lose her as she's become a very promising pupil; we have nice lessons, she practises well and is progressing fast. But I feel funny about the fact she has another weekly lesson and it makes it even worse that I know the other teacher! In fact I rang her up about something or other just a few weeks ago so presumably she knew then that I was teaching this little girl - perhaps she was wondering why I didn't mention it? But she didn't mention it either! Now I feel as if I ought to ring her to clarify things, but don't want to cause any embarrassment for the little girl at school.

My partner thinks I'm worrying unnecessarily and that I should just get on with teaching her, as the other teacher apparently doesn't mind, and as long as there's no conflict in our methods, which there doesn't seem to be.

To be honest I also find it extraordinary that she's been doing two lots of practice all this time yet nobody told me!!!

What would other peris here do? I've always felt it very bad form to share a pupil unless I'm teaching them something specific like jazz. Oh and she doesn't want to give up the school lessons as she enjoys the group situation - but she likes my lessons too and has come on in leaps and bounds since doubling up on lessons.

Violinia

I sympathise with this problem. I am currently teaching a boy from overseas who has lessons with me whilst he's in England and then, when he goes back home to Europe (about once very six weeks) he catches up with his teacher there who sets new work, doesn't like what I'm doing too much and asks me to prepare "his" pupil for his end-of-year exams in his home country using the material he has chosen.

I like my new pupil very much but I want to teach him as I feel he should be taught. Whilst I professionally respect his original teacher and recognise that, eventually, this pupil will go home permanently and resume lessons with him, for the next two years whilst he's in England, I'd like to steer him as I feel best. I see him each week - not every six weeks - and I feel I have to answer if he doesn't make progress.

As to your actual problem, you may find you have to ask the parents/pupil to decide between the two teachers if the situation grows to unmanageable. I can see the benefits of the girl getting ensemble playing at school (would she not do so if she only comes to you?) but the potential for conflicting advice, different ideas about exams etc grows by the day.

Presumably she came to you because she couldn't get enough input at school? I think in your shoes, I'd contact the peri involved and talk this through. I don't seem to be able to establish contact with the other oboe teacher, not helped by the language barriers to do so - but I wish I could.

Hope you get this resolved soon!

I had the same thing as a child. I had a free group lesson on violin in school and a private lesson each week with a different teacher. Both teachers knew about the situation. My memory of it was that the group lesson was so general with very little direct focus on my own technique that to me it seemed like it was just a few other easy pieces to play in a group, much like being in an orchestra or band in addition to my "real lessons".

This happened with my youngest and Recorder. She had a group lesson at school and a private lesson with a different teacher. The school Recorder Teacher didn't want her to give up as she was the most experienced player. Both teachers were aware of the situation and knew each other. There were no serious clashes of teaching style as the group was lower in standard and not working towards exams. I would think if the girl is not working for an individual exam with her current teacher don't worry about it too much. My daughter was highly motivated and enjoyed by being the strongest player in the group and that could work for your pupil.

I wouldn't have liked my child to have had two individual teachers on the same instrument at the same time.

Violinia, having two teachers can be a very awkward situation, and it's one I usually try to avoid,
although when one of the lessons is ensemble playing it can work alright.

What comes across from your post is how well the little girl is doing and the fact that she seems to be blossoming with the present arrangement. Perhaps as long as it continues to work so well it might be worth seeing how it goes for a while longer?

I guess you feel slightly "taken for a ride" since you were not aware of the other lesson until recently. It sounds as though the mother didn't intend to mislead you though from what you say.

Do let us know how it goes.

It's happened to me in the past and I've never found it works properly - at least, when the child is young. I suppose it might work when a pupil is really quite advanced and for example one teacher might concentrate on technique and the other on repertoire (??) but individual teachers can have totally different ways of explaining/approaching things and a child can easily get confused............

I used to have one teacher for Theory in school and a private one for everything else. The one for Theory had been my original teacher, and wasn't very good, but I liked her so much that I wanted to stay on with her once I started with my new teacher. But the problem was that the original teacher was very bitter that I'd left her, and used to write spiteful comments on my school reports. So no, I don't really think having two teachers works unless they know about each other and are teaching completely different areas.

I have a student who has a school lesson each week as well as lessons with me.

I've been SO patient but I've had enough! I've said he needs to work on different pieces with his school teacher because the guy is really negative (told the kid his Bflat major scale was rubbish, didn't elaborate or help - just said 'you need to work harder at it'!) and also critisises me directly "You shouldn't have this book! It's too hard for you"

Also (allegedly) told the kid to do wrist-wobble-vomit-inducing vibrato

These are the bits of your post that stand out to me.
It may well be a situation that often doesn't work out well - that doesn't mean there can't be exceptions

I think that as long as you are happy then there shouldn't be a problem. Obviously, there may come a time when it no longer works, probably when the child can no longer cope with doing two lots of practice, but why change something now that has obviously been working so well just because you now know that it's happening? The situation hasn't changed since you first started teaching her, just the fact that you know she has two teachers, and if it hasn't been a problem in the past, why stop something that seems to be working so well? You obviously enjoy teaching her, and she enjoys having two lessons; long may it continue I say, the more she enjoys it the more she will practice and therefore improve!

Good luck with it.

This is an awkward situation that I found myself in a few months ago. Just before a Grade 5 exam my pupil admitted to me that he was still having lessons with his previous private teacher who suggested he come to the "school peri" to learn how to pass the exam! It turns out the private teacher "doesn't believe in learning scales" and "can't play the piano well enough to accomany a Grade 5 exam". I have to admit I was quite angry about being used in this way but rather than upset my pupil just before the exam I said nothing. However, I have subsequently issued an ultimatum to the parents - one teacher or the other - and I am awaiting their reply. Not sure what to do if they want to continue the mixed messages scenario as the pupil is quite talented, and pleasant to teach.

I hope it was your name that went on the certificate Schubert.
I don't think that the piano playing is a issue, plenty of people have to hire an accompanist for exams of all levels, but it the teacher didn't believe in teaching scales then surely that also means that they didn't believe in preparing people for exams and should say so when taking on students.

I can really sympathise with you Violina. In Aust there are free instrumental lessons (in some states) for every primary school student, but they are always in groups and often one teacher for many instruments (like the guy in the room next door to me today who teaches the ENTIRE concert band ) So it is becoming very common for the students who excel at their instrument, but are being held back in the group situation to start having private lessons. They more often than not continue at school, due to the ensemble work, and also for social reasons. I'm quite happy for them to continue in an ensemble (in fact, I'd highly encourage it), but the problem comes when all too often my flute students come in with a piece with a whole lot of notes they haven't yet learnt, or complicated rhythms, and ask me to teach it to them. This really makes me mad! I feel so sorry for the other kids in the ensemble who don't have a private teacher to fall back on.

And then there is the problem of exams! This is probably the area where I find the 2 teacher situation unbearable. Perhaps it is worthwhile talking with the teacher now & explaining the problem, and asking if you can be solely responsible for exam work.

Good luck with it

An interesting situation... I have two teachers myself as well - both for trumpet, but they unlike your situation they knew about it - as they work together. Two teachers isn't nesescarily a bad thing - all musicians are different - so of course you and the other teachers teaching styles and musical tastes are different - this may be good for your pupil as she will be getting a much broader mucial influence. You may even find that in your teaching you compliment each other - in the case of my teachers: one prefers to work perhaps more on technique and peices, and the other also works on peices and also musiclity and stylistic ideas.

I agree with nic that the exam situation could be problematic - especially since you knew nothing about it for some time! - if there are to be two teachers communication is probably important - first to avoid covering things twice, and also to avoid overloading your pupil.

There is no reason why joint teahing cannot work - indeed in school subjects it is common to find two teacher teaching a class - but both covering different aspects of the course.

I hope this helps, or at least gives some food for thought.

Jon

It is interesting hearing the perspective from a student with two teachers. Jon, does your 'musicality/style-based' teacher ever work on your technique or give you additional repertoire?

I can't imagine seeing poor technique and not helping correct it, as this is obviously what I do with all my students who only have one teacher. Similarly, if I heard something that was stylistically incorrect I would feel the need to say something! ... perhaps I am not cut out to share students

I feel a bit mixed about sharing a pupil. I used to work in a school, and one of my pupils then started having private lessons. He came on in leaps and bounds and that made me happy because the teaching I had to do in school was group work, and I couldn't have the time to spend with him. I got him through his first grade and then he had a new found enthusiasm, and hence took on the extra teacher, but that did cause some problems because he often didn't practice what the rest of his school group had been given.
On the other hand, I teach a child privately, who is still having lessons at school. When he comes to me, he wants to go over the stuff he's been doing at school, and sometimes doesn't do what I've set him. Ironically, another kid I taught privately went to the same school and had the same peri, so it feels a bit odd about seeing the same handwriting on the books. I don't know this teacher, but I think they're very good, the paranoia in me then sets in and I worry about what they're thinking!
I wouldn't set him an ultimatum though. He is taught in a group at school, and gets different things out of his lessons than he does with me.

It's very understandable that you got crossed wires because I almost ended up in a situation like this (even though I only wanted 1/2 pupils!) A lady I serve at my job regularly asked me to teach her grandaughter flute. I said yes immediately. gave her my phone number to give to the grandaughter's parents. never recieved a phone call. A few weeks later I spoke to the lady again and she revealed the girl had had her first lesson that day with my peri teacher at her primary school! I was shocked and the lady said, I thought she could come to you for extra help, yet at this stage she'd only just started! I thought at the time this would be unproffessional though and luckily I wasn't asked for extra help.

However if the situation is working fine now, keep going. If problems arise later, something will have to change. Oh and ring up the other teacher, I'm sure you can have a laugh about it!

Thanks for all your responses. It's definitely an ambigious situation - especially when she takes the first exam - which I had no idea she was being prepared for until yesterday - weird!!! As both a home and a peri I do understand the problems of peri teaching - like no contact with the parents. I have the kind of contact with these particular parents where I do things like write out guitar chords for the dad so he can accompany her when she practises. Or tell the mum exactly how to help her when she plays a certain piece at home.

I guess because the peri is also a home teacher she's probably just delighted that the little girl has started to move forward after getting a bit stuck - it probably makes her a lot more satisfying to teach. And yes perhaps it's good that she has input from both of us, and none of it seems to be conflicting. I think I was just reeling with the shock of having not known all this time.

My feeling is really that I ought to talk to the other teacher to clarify things and properly agree on a defined strategy. It just seems weird that we know each other, are teaching the same girl, yet have had absolutely no communication with each other on the subject.

It also seems odd that when I mentioned to the mother that I knew the other teacher, she didn't suggest (from the standpoint of knowing that the other teacher was still teaching the child) that the other teacher and I should have a word about it. I just find it professionally a bit awkward and uncomfortable.

But as the mum isn't a musician and as this is her first dealing with the world of music teaching - she couldn't be expected to know, perhaps.

I've decided to ring the other teacher tomorrow night and have a quick chat about it just to make sure it's all OK with her - that seems to me to be the best idea.

Violinia

Ringing the other teacher - especially as you do know her - sounds like a sensible plan. I don't think having two teachers is an ideal, BUT it sounds like this little girl is thriving. If you teachers can sort it between you to your satisfaction then - if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Bit of a shock though to find out it's been happening for quite some time!

Well I finally cleared this one up - I rang the other teacher (I'll call her 'M') and had a good chat about it last night. She was absolutely amazed I didn't know; she'd assumed I'd known all along (since September) and had indeed found it a bit weird when we talked on the phone a few weeks ago and I didn't mention it.

I wish she'd mentioned it then!

She told me all the children in her group (of three) are having lessons outside and it's something she's not encountered before - nor me for that matter. Perhaps the mums have all discussed it and acted together? She also told me she's noticed how much this particular child has improved in the last six months, so it's been to her (M's) advantage as it makes her easier to teach. Apparently the child has been taking her book (the one I'm using with her) to school each week and showing M what we've been doing! She also shares some of things I teach her (like rhythm games) with the other kids in the group - hmm! Anyway, M is relieved I'm using a different book, because one of the other outside teachers is using the same book only further ahead, so it all gets very intrusive and confusing.

We discussed it in depth and decided together that it's fine to continue in this way as long as we discuss the child's progress together from time to time and keep using using different books. We think the best way is to see it as 'private coaching' - which school-based teachers rarely object to. The good thing is that we agree on approach and don't have conflicting methods; it could also be to the child's advantage that she has one individual lesson and one group one as she gets both the focussed one-to-one attention she needs as well as the experience of playing in a group.

So problem solved and openness wins the day!

I no longer think having two teachers is totally weird - as long as they're not both individual lessons, which to my mind would be completely unacceptable, and as long is everybody is aware of the situation and can compare notes from time to time.

Thanks for all your helpful comments!

Violinia

I'm very glad it's all sorted out so well!


Just interested - why do you think it would be completely unacceptable? Surely it depends on the situation?

Many excellent musician friends of mine have lessons with more than one person, studying different things with each person - either focussing on technique with one person and pieces with another, or just studying different pieces. They don't seem to be having a problem, apart from having two sets of practise!

I'm interested that so many teachers are so against the idea of having two teachers. At school and university, one has more than one teacher per subject, especially at the higher levels - this is considered normal practise. Why is this different for music teachers?

I think that at higher levels it's different.

With beginners they sometimes hardly cope with the demands of one teacher and different approaches can easily confuse. (can be trickier if one teacher is giving out dogdy information but that's another discussion).
I think that particularly in the early stages two teachers would need to know one another well to cordinate things or be teaching different things.
If exams come into it I think it is potentially more difficult.
Not quite the same thing but I was seriously annoyed when I'd taken a teenage boy through all the theory up to grade 4 and then his school entered him for the exam. The only bonus was that he did get a distinction but I wasn't happy that the school got the credit for it, especially as when he came to me they had told him his theory was around grade 6 and the 2nd week he asked me what a minor scale was....
I was annoyed when one of my pupils said she was having a lesson in school as well as with me especially when the teacher at school just had her carrying on in the book I was using with her.
Another girl had a lesson in school but was learning a different style of playing so it worked ok.

I actually am on the other side of this. One of my piano pupils I teach at school also has lessons outside. I would much prefer her to do my book that I use with all my kids but the parents refused to pay for another book (£4.95!) so I have to use the same one that her other teacher gave her. We just carry on from where she left off each time.

I hate it but am I really going to turn pupils away?

Were you her teacher first or the other teacher? If you are the second teacher (that's how I understand it from your post) did you ask whether the first teacher was aware of the situation? Would you expect that to be the case?

This was another thing that I wasn't too happy with, that the teacher at school was prepared take her on (or maybe she wasn't given a choice?) when she had another teacher. It didn't seem right to me to do that without my knowledge.... though I realise that the parents could have said that I'd been consulted if she asked it's also possible that she didn't ask whether I knew about it. It's difficult to really know how things were arranged in this situation.
Is there an accepted protocol for this?
When I had a separate teacher for theory she did expect that my piano teacher was aware of it and I wouldn't have done it without his knowledge anyway even though he wasn't teaching theory at that level.

She started with both teachers at the same time. Her mother thought it would bring her on more quickly if she had two teachers. Not sure why the other teacher couldn't just give her a longer lesson.

But I'm not happy. He seems to be pushing her through the book more quickly than I would like. I have my kids play each piece to perfection before I allow them to 'finish' it. Obviously we have several pieces on the go at once, we don't just do one piece. But her other teacher doesn't do this. I know that because I've had her play through stuff that he has 'finished' and whilst the notes are all correct her timing is way off and she is pausing all the way through them.

However she does know all the notes and she knows how they SHOULD be played - when I have her clap the rhythms they are always spot on. So maybe he is right to get her on to more difficult stuff more quickly. Just because another teacher does things differently doesn't necessarily mean he is wrong.

I'm in a "let's see how it goes" mood right now.

Oh and I did ask whether he knew and was OK with it - and he did know and he was OK with it.

If your student is blossoming under the double-lessons arrangement, why wouldn't you want to continue to support their success? Presumably music teachers exist for the benefit of their students, not vice versa. The best decision I have taken (after the initial decision to retain a really good piano teacher) was to have more than one really good piano teacher.

When I have encountered a jealous or possessive teacher in the past, it was usually because they were afraid of losing business or were not up to snuff or fearful of direct comparison. The proper reasoning should be from the point of view of the student and I do agree that at the lower grades it could be confusing for some students.

My one teacher works with me treating me like a musician focusing primarily on a making music within a varied repertoire that is within my technical reach while my second piano teacher works on bringing my technique to the next level focusing on scales, Czerny-Germer, Brahms 51, Bach, keyboard choreography, relaxation, etc. To make things even more complicated neither of my teachers knows anything about ABRSM nor cares to find out. So, a third teacher gave me coaching for aural, etc. before the practical exams.

Each is doing something they are very good at, I am benefiting from a faster development than with one teacher and each of my teachers has learned something new about teaching because of the arrangement. Everybody wins.

I have taught students who come to me for Kodály classes and also attend classes run by another teacher. This doesn't bother me in the slightest as everybody teaches differently and - as long as the other teacher is someone whose teaching and musicianship I respect - the student can only gain by the double input.

Generally speaking with violin each teacher has their own personalised approach which they adapt meticulously to each pupil. I wouldn't be able to stand it if any of my beginners also had an individual lesson with another teacher unless the context was different, ie a group lesson as opposed to an individual lesson, or they were more advanced and learning a different style of playing altogether with the other other teacher, ie jazz/classical.

For example, I've just finished giving a lesson to an adult beginner. I'm teaching her in a very particular way, introducing pizzicato before bowing. I want her to concentrate on her left hand and learning all the notes that way before she starts playing with the bow.

If another teacher started teaching her, immediately showed her how to use the bow (as many teachers do) and she started coping with all that as well as learning complex fingering, this would directly contravene my chosen way of doing things and overload her in a way I would see as unhelpful.

It just wouldn't work and would seriously interfere with my one-step-at-a-time way of doing things (with most students).

It may be different with other instruments but there are several different approaches when beginning violin; I have decided to stick with this way as it always seems to work best. Can other posters here not see how undemining it would be if one of my beginners started having lessons with a 'bowing first' teacher at the same time?!?

Violinia

yes, absolutely, it is entirely different from having two teachers at a higher level for different aspects of the same instrument, once basic technique is sound and the student is able to see what's being focused on.

For young pupils I would certainly agree with this. My daughter didn't have two cello teachers at the same time but her first one went on maternity leave, was replaced for a year and then came back. Although the two teachers knew each other and are friends and my daughter liked both they had a very different approach (the first concentrated on fingers, the second on bowing) and used different words to explain things. It took my daughter about a term to adjust each time she changed. So although my daughter has been learning for three years I think it actually amounts to more like two (her teacher wasn't replaced for a term so there was a term with no lessons, a term adjusting to the new teacher and then a term adjusting back to her first teacher).

As people may know from other posts my daughter is taught theory/aural separately and that is not much good either as what she is taught in this class is far too in advance of what she does on her instrument (or adapted to pianists not string players).

I don't feel it works for young children to have 2 teachers. I was rather annoyed today when one of my year 4 school pupils told me she'd started having lessons with a private teacher & he'd written all over her book, including writing notes in, which did irritate me. I didn't tell her I was annoyed, as it wasn't her fault & I'm sure her mum didn't intend to offend me either, but I can't accept the situation.

It isn't a question of jealousy or of money (the school has a waiting list for piano, so I could easily replace this pupil), but of doing the best I can for a child's musical & pianistic development, which I don't feel I can if another teacher is doing things differently with her.

I do feel than the other teacher has acted rather badly in taking her on, knowing that she is still having lessons at school & not making any contact with me or the school, but I think he's very young & it probably didn't occur to him. I didn't have a chance today, but I will speak to the girl's mum & explain that she needs to make a choice. It will be a pity if I lose her, but it's up to them to decide.

Why don't you send a note back to the pupil's parent and ask them for the contact details of the other teacher because you'd like to talk to him as it isn't normal practice for an instrumental pupil to have two teachers? If the peri had contacted me (I wish she had) I would have got a shock but we would have been able to sort things out between us a lot earlier.

As this home teacher is obviously aware of your existence, I think it's outrageous that he's writing all over the book - it's a real invasion of your teaching territory and I would be similarly cross. The only way it could possibly work is if you and he made contact and you agreed to teach from a completely different book. The pupil would then have to agree to do two sets of practice. My pupil is actually doing this ; and the teacher and I now discuss the pupil and it's all fine.

If this can't be arranged I'd definitely tell the pupil they've got to choose.

Violinia

Thanks, Violinia. I'm glad someone can understand how I feel. The child had told me the other teacher's name, so I googled him last night. I then realised that he appears to be the son of one of my fellow choir members (I have to check this, but the phone number is right!). We're only a small choir & this lady & I are both on the committee, so I know her fairly well. It just makes another complication - I don't want any falling out over this.

The trouble is, I think people who don't teach often can't see the problem with having 2 teachers. I think the young man concerned is just inexperienced & doesn't have much idea about professional ettiquette. I noticed that, although he studied music at uni, he doesn't seem to have done any teaching courses or belong to ISM or EPTA, so he perhaps hasn't had much contact with other teachers. I think I will have to approach him in a friendly manner try to sort it out, but I think perhaps I'd like to talk to the girl's mum first. She works at the school, so I do see her, but we don't normally get much chance to talk.

I have been teaching the child the Music Tree, which has a rather different approach to learning to read music & playing the piano & I think it would be extremely confusing for the child to learn from another book at the same time, so I think they really must choose one teacher or the other. That's one of the reasons I was annoyed about his writing on the music, several pages ahead of where we were, because he obviously didn't understand the philosophy behind it - no-one would if they hadn't seen the book before & just started near the end!

This is exactly what I meant. Oddly enough the peri I'm sharing a pupil with told me (when we finally talked) that one of her other pupils has a home teacher as well, and he writes all over the book - and is trying to take the pupil way beyond where she is in the book with the peri. It must be very frustrating for the pupil to have to go back several pages when she's having her school lesson - what a mad situation, and avoidable too as he could easily work from a different book.

I guess the parents are thinking: as lessons are conveniently at school why not have both - two lessons must be twice as good, etc etc. Only it doesn't always work like that...

Hope you get your situation sorted out asap.

Violinia

I think that parents and some younger teachers do not realise there is a professional etiquette to be followed. I certainly did not until I read posts on here and also posted on here that I did have two teachers for a brief period. Also I think because at school you have private tuition for maths, etc, having a private music teacher as well as a school one is put in the same category. You learn something everyday when you read these boards.

Yes in a way it's weird that emotions run high over it. I wonder if it's also partly because teachers experience a sort of personal professional pride when their students do well? And when you share a student you don't know which bit of their progress you can take any of the credit for?

I remember once being asked by a friend to help her daughter through her Grade 1 violin; she was learning at her (private) school and not doing at all well to be frank. I agreed because she was a friend, and helped the girl sort out her intonation, fingering, everything really. She went on to get a distinction and I couldn't help feeling weird about the fact the other teacher must have felt it was all down to her!!! I'd decided then never to do it again and had had mixed feelings about it all along to be honest.

But it's also mostly to do with professional issues. Particularly in the early stages learning an instrument is such a step by step thing, and every teacher has their favourite tried and tested methods. You can't have another teacher teaching your beginner by a different method at the same time - it would only confuse.

My doubly-taught pupil came today and I told the mother I'd spoken to the other teacher to sort things out. The mother explained that she'd had no idea there were 'professional etiquette' issues involved - her words, funnily enough.

Yes we all live and learn.

Violinia

I agree to a fashion. I feel problems arise when you have two teachers heading toward the same goal, but take different paths. This could be confusing for the student, and for the teacher too, who may disagree with a particular method etc. I try to distance myself form this situation, but when it does arrive I try to find out what the other teacher is doing and reinforce. But if it works for the student, then...hey ho! I am getting paid anyway.

What an honest statement.

Yes. The considerations and accompanying emotions to students having more than one teacher seem often to be all about the teachers, sadly having less to do with the student and his or her welfare.

Pride, Possessiveness and Proprietary methods: the three P's of seeing the student as an object to satisfy a teacher's own ego rather than a paying customer and future budding artist.

In my book, the other "P", Professionalism, is about how the teacher is to behave more than the customer. True professionalism means that the teacher worries less about "taking credit for a student" and reasons her decisions from the point of view of the student's development and what the customer (the student and/or those paying for the student's education) needs and wants.

I think it's more a matter of being proud of what your students achieve. Yes, there will be an element of personal pride in the job you are doing but why is that bad? Doesn't taking pride in your students mean that you have a real interest in what they do? What is wrong with wanting to know how effective you are as a teacher?

As a student, I find it really quite sad to think that teachers should be expected to act as automatons - just there for the "customer" to switch on and off at his/her bidding. Anyone who doesn't understand the motivations of a dedicated teacher (ie the ones who enjoy teaching and don't just do it as another income stream) should read the thread What do you enjoy about teaching. In my opinion, the best teachers would take pride in what they had enabled their pupils to achieve - and why shouldn't they want to take the credit for that? They've put a lot of themselves into that pupil - because they're Passionate as well as Professional, and to expect them not to feel personal pride is to fail to recognise that they're human beings, not automatons.

That's what I meant Skylark, you put it much better than I did.

Absolutely Skylark!

I was brought up to have pride in my work, regardless of what this might be. When I was going through uni I worked in admin doing data entry. It wasn't the most interesting job, however when I was fast and efficient I took pride in that. Why should it be any different to take pride in my teaching?

Hmm, yes I was being honest but for me the jury's out as to whether wanting credit for your students' achievements is intrinsically a good or a bad thing. You seem to think it's a bad thing, and I disagree with that. Yes a teacher's motivations can be primarily about seeking glory for themselves but surely that's at the extreme end of the spectrum. Most teachers, surely, are motivated by a mixture of factors: to help further a child's artistic growth and be instrumental in their becoming the best artist they can be, and also to take some (justifiable) pride in observing that growth.

Your use of the word 'customer' makes me feel very queasy; you seem to be reducing the role of a teacher to that of a supplier. Music students aren't basically 'customers' any more than rail passengers are 'customers' and I personally loathe the term in both these contexts, particuarly the musical one. It's driven by consumerism and no good can come of it!!!

Music students are often in a relationship with their teacher that can last a lifetime and operate on an incredibly deep level. I still have long conversations witb my old violin teacher (now nearly 80) on the phone, and go and vist her when I'm in London - she's like an aunt to me even now. It's been a very enriching relationship that would probably never have developed in this way if she had seen me as a 'customer' from the outset (perish the thought, frankly).

Music teachers are human beings not drinks dispensers and the more I write and think about this the angrier I'm becoming - in fact, one big aaarrghhh!!!

OK where did you get these ideas from? Is it from something you've read? If so, what? And do you really think a music teacher should be expected to watch their pupil perform something they've rehearsed for ages under the teacher's guidance, and not feel a warm glow for both of them?

I've recently been offered a rather nice job in jazz education, and told my old violin teacher about it in one of our recent conversations She was knocked out, and her response was 'Oh! I'm so proud of you!' Do you think I felt shortchanged in any way by her response? Not a bit of it - in fact I felt delighted that she could still feel a reflected glow from my achievements - after all it was due to the combination of her teaching and my work that has got me where I am. And yes we paid her at the time, but that didn't make her a supplier and me a customer!!!

Violinia

NB This isn't to say that a teacher shouldn't have the good sense to know when it's right to suggest that a student moves on to another teacher (instead of or as well as them) for the sake of the student's development. But please don't ever forget that we're all human beings - particularly in the world of art - not commodities. If you're going to go down that road you might as well say a computer could just as easily do the job of an instrumental teacher - not a road I think any of us would wish to go down.

I think imlovinit has got it a bit wrong here.

As a professional person, I expect to take a justifiable pride in my pupil's achievements, acknowledging the input that I've made as well as all the hard work that they have done. As a teacher, you know that you can put in the same amount of effort in teaching 2 different pupils, and you may get 2 different outcomes because obviously you have 2 different individuals. Therefore most of the credit goes to the student for working hard, but obviously some credit must go to the teacher for putting the pupil on the right track - just look how many posts there have been in the past about "not-so-good" teachers - therefore if you've done a good job as a teacher you can acknowledge that to yourself.

I think imlovinit is rather confused between a trade and a profession. I'm a customer of my plumber who is a tradesman. He does a good job, and can take pride in that. However, as a professional teacher I put considerably more thought and effort and care into my work than a tradesman may have to. I'm working with a person, not a thing, which is why I'm doing this job. Teaching is a vocation, we may be paid for it, but everyone has to earn a living, and I do believe that you can only make a good job of it if your heart is in it.

Wow, this is all getting rather philosophical now. Where does a trade become a profession? Just what is 'professional etiquette'? An electrician must use their professionalism to ensure that the entire family doesn't get electrocuted! How many piano teachers have that sort of power?

I've known electricians, plumbers, builders etc that have behaved far more professionally than teachers and doctors. A few years ago, I cancelled a second appointment with a private medical specialist because it was clear that he was out to make as much money as he could - confirmed by a visit to a more 'professional' specialist!
We've had experienced teachers let us down big time! Why is it always the ones that give themselves airs and graces that end up being the worst? This has happened twice now. Yet the quiet teachers who don't huff and puff seem to quietly perform miracles!

I love our kids' music teachers and if I were a private music teacher I would feel unhappy if my students were having lessons with another teacher. Oh, and that business of another teacher writing in the same book!!

But when I learned to drive, I had lessons with BSM and another teacher. When a child has problems, our school recommends extra private lessons - either internally or externally.

A few months ago, there was a thread about a parent who was told by their child's teacher that they could only prepare the child for the practical (playing) part of the exams, but that they'd have to find someone else for the rest. Professional?

I know it's a pain and can be upsetting, but perhaps in the parents' eyes, they're simply trying to do the best for their kids.

Steve

How well you've put it!!

Sorry - the tangent that imlovinit went off on touched a nerve and i was in the sort of mood to write a firm reply.

Apologies for deviating off-thread - I'll go to work now.

I think Violinia has taken a very positive attitude towards her pupil having two teachers and communication here will be key. I hope it continues to work as you are both setting the child a good example in working together to sort out what could have been a difficult situation.