What grade is Fur Elise ?

about Grade Two?

I think if you are talking about the complete piece it's usually reckoned to be about grade 4.

The first two pages that are sometimes reproduced in books of collected (they don't state condensed / mangled!) are probably about grade 2.

There's more than two pages?

I was wondering becuase I can play the first two pages or so, and I quite like the rocky bass bits. (Of the full proper score)

Pieces are not graded, so it means nothing to ask what grade a piece "is". Most people would recon that Fur Elise could be played by someone at a good grade 4 standard, which I think answers you question.

I actually found the second section quite hard and and would have said it took more that that to play it well, but it's a minority view! Other people will find it easier.

However, that is telling you something about the pianist, not the music. The issue is not what grade the piece "is" but how well it's played. As I said in a thread in Adult learners, I have a recording of Ashkenazy playing Fur Elise and it most definately is not a "grade 4 piece" when he plays it!

I would agree that the 2nd section (i.e. the first new theme) would be demanding for a Grade 4 pianist.

Depends on the layout but my copy has 5 or 6 pages (can't be bothered to get it out and check).

I think the piece was on a few years ago on another examining board for Grade 7!

You'd have to play it incredibly well to get a good mark at that grade!!

It's a very easy piece to play. I play it regularly just to annoy people, as it must be one of the most "flogged to death" piano solos apart from Pachelbel's canon. I would say a fairly competent G2/3 student could play this without any problems.

Yes... I play it (not particularly well, and yes to death, as it was the first piece I learnt on my own) but I don't play the twiddly bits in the middle- just the first section.

I self-taught myself this piece when I was about g4/5 standard (about 3 years ago)

But the twiddly bits in the middle are important - a lot of the feeliong and shape comes from those sections. You can't say you can play it if you miss them out, particularly if you simplify the arpegios in the first section as well (which a lot of people do)!

In the form of its original score (4-5 pages or something, depending on the printing) at the recommended tempo, the piece is deemed, as said before, to be about Grade 4+/-1, depending on individual ability, or so a range of books called 'Hours with the Masters' ranks it, anyway, each volume corresponding to the grades of the piece within +1 - i.e. Fur Elise is found in Volume 3. I think Grade 7 is pushing it a bit though, unless you play it like a master! But of course, the problem with playing 'easier' pieces for a higher grade would mainly be that it would be far too much down to interpretation - i.e, you probably couldn't tell a Grade 8 from a Grade 3 very easily if they were playing something like Frere Jacques.

~Wobby~

Yes I would say Grade 3-4 at the most.
Of course Beethoven isnt thought to haveknown a girl called Elise.
His writing was so horrible it couldnt really be deciphered. One theory is that it was written for Therese (von Braunsweig, or Brunswick if you want the anglicised version) So it should be Fu(e)r Therese. (sorry dont know how to do an umlaut sign)

I thought Therese was often shortened to Elise??

Could be wrong and it's all down to poor handwriting!!

I've got very poor handwriting. I got told that by 3 teachers in parents evening.

I would like to see you manage to teach the second theme to my grade 3 pupils!

At least grade 5 to play it comfortably. At least grade 6 to play it well.

I agree. I have had several pupils of different grades anxious to play this over the years. The Grade 3 pupils never play it well, the Grade 4 pupils play it passable, but the Grade 5 pupils usually make a superb 'pleasure to listen to' job of it. (Have been teaching one tonight who passed her G5 exam last week) and is already making a good job of it. Of course, I'm referring to the full version here. One of my Grade 2 pupils thinks he can play it (bless him) but only the repetitive section. The 3 differing sections in the full piece need different technical demands!

Yep I agree with you here - the lower the grade ability of the pianist the more likely they are to "hack" through the notes.......the higher level, the more likely you are to get a pupil who can play it well and expressively, as it really needs and deserves to be played.......

I was given this as a kid when I had taken my grade 6 for a bit of light relief. I try very hard not to teach it to anyone under a grade 5 by which time they have usually tried on their own if they really want to do it.

I have only once had anyone under grade 5 make a really good job of it that wasn't painful to listen to, and that was a more mature grade 4. This piece is frequently underestimated.

I played around G4.
It depend how fast you play page 3.

Come on Carol, I bet Nora the Fur E'Cat could quite comfortabley paw her way through this!

Nora is clearly at least Grade 4 level...

Yes, Fur Elise is actually quite challenging - I would say Grade 4-5 at least.

I am fairly certain that this was a grade five exam piece about 40 plus years ago. Does anyone keep old exam lists and syllabi? I don't think that I would offer it to a pupil below grade six level though as I could not tolerate hearing it in the learning stages played over several weeks. I would advise a student of how to work at it and perform it and then ask them to bring it back when it was ready to perform. Then we would work at it. I love the piece but have heard it too often.

I have it on a grade 4 list of past exam pieces.

This piece is apparently played so often in music showrooms that salesmen are all sick of it. When I followed a friend to get a piano for her daughter, my pieces to play were Clementi's Sonatina Op.36 #3 and Chopin's Nocturne in Eb Major. The salesman played Fur Elise and my mind immediately went, "Ooo that again." Having heard all the stories in piano forums, that just came up. I was positively grinning when I heard it.

Bit like stairway to heaven in guitar shops!

Fur Elise...arrrggghhhh...this annoys me sooooo much! So many people make a hash of it when playing and play it wrong and play it because it's the only 'piece' they can play, although when they do play it it isn't right, anyway! I'm not claiming to be able to play it properly myself, but I don't really want to!! It gets on my nerves!
But, i'd say about gd5 from the little i've looked at it. Phewf, I better get off this thread and start smiling again quick, before i start steaming... that's better

Hehe, I used to get this a lot from a certain somebody at school, i.e. volunteering fervently to perform in front of everybody, playing Fur Elise, going wrong and then restarting from the beginning again. But I guess one can't really stifle their enthusiasm! But I still agree that it is around a Grade 4 piece to play it at a reasonable standard - obviously, the higher than level of the performer, the better they will play any piece, not just Fur Elise, but it helps, seeing as it is such a well known piece and how everybody has a clear 'image' in their own mind about how it should sound.

~Wobby~

Thanks for all your comments-it was as I expected.

Yes - the other one that was played again and again when I worked in a piano shop was the Entertainer.

Back to Fur Elise - why is it that almost every boy I teach aged approx 10 to 16 wants to play this? It's quite difficult for a beginner and not exactly trendy. Have other teachers found this?

I think it's because it's well known... I can't quite think of why it's that desired however. In music if I'm MEGA bored I'll churn it out and everyone's like "WOW!" ... I bury my head in disappointment personally! And yes the entertainer is flogged to death, poor Mr Joplin

Technically you are able to play it with grade 3. But there is some emotion in this piece, you have to play it sentimentically. And a grade 3 student can't do that, although he has enough technique. That's why I would play it only after grade 4 exam.

Yes, whenever someone asks me "can you play fur elise?" (or alternatively: "that one that goes da-da da-da da-da da-da-da) I feel liking flogging them to death! lol!

I'm not sure I agree there - being able to play with feeling is something some people can't do convincingly after grade 8, but others can play grade 1 pieces with feeling...

I think it depends on age and experience. A beginner will find it hard to play with emotion whether they are 7 or 70. Only experienced musicians who have matured can play with true feeling.

Yet, if one has grade 8, they're generally of an age where they can understand the music, but as Sarah says, not all can play with feeling.

There children who have a grade 8 certificate yet are only 12. I don't think that they have reached an age where they can fully understand the emotion in music.

See to be honest I think that's an overgeneralisation, too - there are musicians (and granted, they are few) who have been able to play with emotion from almost the first time they picked up an instrument... witness accounts of the young Jackie du Pre who at the tender age of 6 was moving people with the emotion of her playing, having started at 5.

Some musicians play very complex music with little or no emotion - there was a cellist in the village where I grew up who could play all the notes but left out the music (and she had been playing for YEARS!). On the other hand there are people who play very simple music, even at an early stage, with such feeling that listeners can't help but be moved. Beginner vs experienced is not the whole story, and certainly having passed a certain exam won't guarantee anything.

I am not sure, but I think it's grade four, 'cos I'm grade four and I have just started learning it. Well, I have just done my grade four exam. It wasn't in the list of peices, though. I'm just judging by the difficulty. It's a nice peice though, isn't it?

Bout the 'emotion debate'. I don't necicarily agree that a grade 3 couldn't do that. I think Fur Elise is too dificult for grade 3, but that does not meen people on grade three couldn't play with emotion. Some people are naturals at playing wth emotion. Even a grade 1 and under might be able to play with emotion. I can't prove that though because there a re no peices for grade 1's that can be played with emotion. But if a grade 1 player could play Fur Elise and they are naturals at playing with emotion then they probably could. You can't really study playing with emotions. You have to have emotions and saying a grade 3 can't play with emotion is like saying they don't have emotion. Than again they might have no emotion for the piece, though. Peices get better through each grade.

Yup.

I am told(I don't know why), that I've got good emotion.
That's what got me a 'encourigement prize' in a louzy grade 5 standard competition(I got approx 15th out of nealy170)
EVERY ONE MY AGE PLAYES THE PIANO IN JAPAN SEEMS TO BE BETTER THAN ME

Would the original version of the entertainer be grade 4? Or would that too depend on how well it was played?

I'd think it's technicaly more difficult than that.

A lot of common sense has been talked on this thread about Für Elise (note to fsharpminor: you can get the Umlaut, incidentally, by going to your Character map and copying and pasting). Yes, it requires a good Grade sixish to play convincingly, and I would not normally give it to pupils under grade 5.

What I find interesting about this piece - over many years of teaching - is that it shows that if a pupil is REALLY motivated to learn something it is amazing what they can do against all odds. I've had grade 2 pupils who have learned the first section, whereas if they had been presented with anything else of similar technical difficulty they would have baulked at it.

What has not yet been discussed is the question of tempo. Some pieces really only work at one particular speed. Others work (differently) at a variety of speeds, and I think this is one such example. It does not have to be played too fast, and can be made to work, I think, at a speed of around quaver=108. However, if it is not played musically it will be likely to sound boring at that speed. I myself would go for a speed of around 138, which may still sound quite a steady speed for the first section but will still allow the next section to sound meaningful. There are, of course, those who treat it like the Grand National, and it becomes a meaningless jumble (unless you are Ashkenazy).

On the "emotion" bit which has been discussed a lot, and follows on from what I've been saying: yes, there are Grade 8 pianists and Grade 8 pianists. A friend (not a musician) who wanted to put on a concert of local talent at the local church, asked me what grade she thought someone ought to be in order to play in public. I replied that I had heard grade 1 pupils who could give me great pleasure when playing a piece, and I had heard grade 8 pupils who were aweful to listen to. She found this hard to understand, but I expect the readers of this website will appreciate the point. The point about Für Elise, of course, is that it is the kind of piece that works - up to a point - as a purely technical exercise, although of course some musical maturity will add another dimension.