paulara
Mar 7 2007, 05:15 PM
I don't know if it is normal for teachers not to be able to demonstrate student's exam pieces. I'm taking grade 8 this year and I feel i'm not getting much "help" from lessons. Basically I learn the pieces myself from listening to the AB CD ( bec my sight-reading is atrocious). So I already got the "blueprint" but I feel I'm not able to improve very much more from my lessons.
Ok, the teacher would make some comments here and there about the rhythm, dynamics and accents but these aren't really helpful. bec I myself could tell when my rhythm is off ( usually bec i can't manage the speed required due to fingering problem or wrong hands movement which I can't solve myself )and Dynamics can easily be improved with more practice .
Bec my teacher is unable to play (even small sections)fluently, I am not sure if she understands what my problem really is. Is it bec I do not understand the correction or is it due to the fingering or hand movement ? Worse, sometimes I'm not entirely convinced she knows her stuff.
Am i wrong to say that the teacher ought to have studied and played the piece so that they know what their students are " going through" ?
And there's the question of "inspiration" and "motivation". I never have the " wow! I can't wait to run home to practise so that I could sound like you !" kind of feeling when I hear my teacher play. It's more like " er...are you doing sight-reading here? "
I like my teacher but I don't like the disappointment after lessons thinking " what have i learnt again? "
Do you teachers demonstrate to your higher grade students? Am I expecting too much from my teacher?
Violinia
Mar 7 2007, 05:26 PM
As a rule a teacher should be able to play whatever they're teaching, but if a teacher has a large amount of students they may not have the time to go through every single piece they're teaching, and know it backwards fingering-wise.
I know a wonderful teacher who now has Parkinsons disease - she's still a high profile teacher and regularly takes her students through Grade 8, but she's now unable to play herself.
However, if a teacher cannot actually play to the level they're teaching to, and has never been able to play to that level, I would suggest you find a better teacher!
Violinia
PS And yes I think a teacher should always demonstrate wherever possible, but that's just my view. I do know of some amazing teachers who apparently don't demonstrate at all.
AnotherPianist
Mar 7 2007, 05:50 PM
QUOTE(Violinia @ Mar 7 2007, 05:26 PM)
However, if a teacher cannot actually play to the level they're teaching to, and has never been able to play to that level, I would suggest you find a better teacher!
True but there's a difference between being able to play a grade 8 piece and being able to sightread a grade 8 piece, which is something not even required of players doing LRSM performance. I think particularly on piano this difference may be exaggerated. If, of course, the teacher is really lacking in the technical skills to play the piece, rather than just the time to learn it, then it's clearly a different matter.
Perhaps a better approach for you is to have less frequent lessons, fix everything that you know is wrong and then see if they can spot anything else. I'm not a piano teacher but I could make comments to improve some renditions of pieces that I can't play, without needing to play them.
organgrinder
Mar 7 2007, 06:05 PM
I know of a fantastic teacher who does not even play the instrument which they teach. They have a thorough knowledge of the instrument and are well read on technique etc. but they can never demonstrate to their students. The students all turn out to be fantastic players. Many of them have gone on to further study in conservatories abroad while others play in orchestras etc.
So in answer to your question - it can depend on the teacher. Some can pass on the knowledge with out demonstrating. I
Shirlynlovesmusic
Mar 7 2007, 06:10 PM
Being a piano teacher myself, i think being able to play, demonstrate and sight-read any musical material is important. This will enable the students to listen and look at the same time which will enable them to understand any piece of music much quicker as compared to just plain explanations of what to improve on, fingerings, etc. The demonstration from the teacher will cultivate the interests and excitements for the students to go on learning, from my experiences.
Of course this does not apply for sight-reading if the student themselves need to sight-read the music without having to know how it'll sound like. But in your case, a playing from your teacher will definetely boost your confidence in learning the pieces as well as having more certainty about the doubts which you have for your teacher. Learning music has to come from both sides, the student and the teacher. Furthermore, a higher graded exam will need much more technical demonstrations and practice solutions from the teacher.
sbhoa
Mar 7 2007, 06:22 PM
My teacher doesn't play through pieces for me and only really demonstrates in regard to technique (like how to use my hands/arms to play a particular passage). I'm quite sure that she could if she had to but as Violinia says I wouldn't necessarily expect her to know everything I'm playing to performance level.
She does usually have lots of notes on her copy to help with teaching things though and will sometimes add to them when the need arises.
skylark
Mar 7 2007, 06:22 PM
Reading between the lines it sounds as if you have generally lost confidence in your teacher.
What do you intend to do after G8? If you are stopping at G8 anyway, then it's possibly not worthwhile looking for another teacher at this stage if you have not got long to go to the exam and you are reasonably confident of passing. But if you want to go further, it sounds as if you don't have confidence that this teacher could help you to get there, and in that case, maybe it is time to look for a teacher whose ability you trust.
And much as you like your current teacher, bear in mind that the best teachers
know when they can no longer help their students - and they let go, taking pride in the fact that they helped them to get where they're going...
AnotherPianist
Mar 7 2007, 06:27 PM
I guess it depends on the level of the pupil too: if a teacher can't demonstrate a grade 1 piece then there's definitely cause for concern; however, no one would expect that it's humanly possible for someone teaching at LRSM level to be able to demonstrate difficult sections without having studied them themselves....
carol*piano
Mar 7 2007, 07:04 PM
I'm putting a pupil through Grade 8 at the moment and I haven't learnt her pieces (though I could hack through them of course), but I am fully able to demonstrate what touch should be used or how to phrase a small section in a way that clearly sounds better than my pupil's efforts. Were I not able to do this, I would feel that I should not be teaching at this level.
The benchmark for whether you should be teaching someone or not is surely the amount you feel you can improve their performance - if you think it already sounds fine, you clearly have no more to offer them. I recently had this tested when another local piano teacher asked me for lessons - my initial reaction was - I can't teach you! But I agreed to hear her play and found I was able to offer her a lot of pointers and tips on her playing and therefore agreed to teach her, knowing that I could improve her performance.
Appassionata
Mar 7 2007, 07:09 PM
I always demonstrate and play through pieces before a pupil chooses it and also to show different techniques. I learnt clarinet with a teacher who couldn't play it and I felt it really held me back.
ant lee
Mar 7 2007, 08:52 PM
I am currently learning my grade 6 peices which I'm not finding too difficult. My teacher wasn't able to sight read my peices but is able to play sections for me to demostrate style, dynamics, technique etc. and after a week or so was able to play right through them for me.
I always find comments useful, but do agree that to have a practical demonstration is much more usful.
Ant x
Malone
Mar 7 2007, 09:01 PM
I always demonstrate to my pupils, and I plan in advance what that particular pupil might learn in the near future and might spend maybe half and hour really getting to know the piece and where the pupil is likely to have problems. My previous flute teacher was really terrible and could hardly play a grade 6 piece so I complained to my course tutor and she arranged my lessons with a proffesional Flautist, and he really knows what he is talking about and he only teaches the upper grades and diplomas so he is really in tune with the harder flute repertoire which I think is essential.
ad_libitum
Mar 7 2007, 09:17 PM
Currently the highest grade I teach is 6/7, and I feel confident enough to be able to sight read at this level when I need to demonstrate.
I like to demonstrate when it's appropriate, and would probably feel a little strange teaching someone a piece I thought I couldn't play myself, but that's not to say it can't be done.
A few pupils have come to me wanting to learn pieces which would be grade 7+, ones that I could hash through to give them an idea of it, but not sight read perfectly. In these cases I will be honest and say, "let me look at this for a week" and take a bit of time to learn it, so I know where the difficult parts are, and the best way to approach it. If time allows I'll maybe do a bit of research on the style/composer, and I do feel it's my job to be familliar with the students' repertoire.
It helps my own sight reading enormously in the process, so it works out well, and I often end up learning a piece I wouldn't have otherwise touched!
As someone else said though, time can be a factor for many busy teachers. My own teacher doesn't
always know the piece I play for him, but always offers fantastic advice and insight - picking up on lots of little things I would have missed, so I get plenty out of the lesson without the need to have him play the music for me. I usually get him to play something before I leave anyway, just because he's such an excellent pianist! Even if it's not the actual piece I'm working on, it's still inspiring to listen to
While I'm capable of playing the pieces I teach, I find that there is rarely (if ever) a time in a lesson when I would play the piece in it's entirety for a student. My higher level students are always encouraged to compare various recordings of their pieces, however I don't believe it is a productive use of lesson time if I hog the piano stool to perform for them. (Small sections, yes; but rarely an entire piece).
Regardless of how well you know how to play a piece, I think a more important skill is being able to study the score & predict any technical problems that could arise before the lesson. This is what a conductor does before a rehearsal, and it is far more effective to approach these issues first up, than wait for the orchestra to struggle through that section before going back to fix it. Also, the conductor doesn't run back the brass section, borrow a trumpet, and demonstrate to someone how a passage goes. They have other ways of communicating, which I remember being a difficult skill to learn as a young teacher. It was easier to pick up your instrument and demonstrate, than to find a language to talk about music. But this is another issue altogether!
Paulara, if your lessons show little sign of preparation (on your teacher's behalf) then I would consider changing your teacher. I prepare for my pupil's lessons, and I have the expectation that they will prepare for the lesson also. It isn't a one-way street!
oboist
Mar 7 2007, 09:49 PM
I think you should be able to demonstrate to your pupils what they need to have demonstrated to them. That said, I'm a professionally trained oboist but I'm also a very busy teacher. I just don't get the practise time in that I should and there are some very tricky passages in a number of the works my advanced pupils are learning that I'd be reluctant to demonstrate on the oboe without some prior notice.
This morning I was teaching a Grade 5 piano pupil and she swung round and asked me to play a piece to her which I had not practised and, as piano is my second study instrument, I'm less confident in these situations anyway. I played her some "extracts" with the comment that I wasn't prepared to go for the full performance without serious preparation for same. She seemed satisfied with that. I only teach to Grade 5/6 on the piano for the very reason that I don't feel confident to play some of the material above Grade 7/8 level myself.
I feel you must have solid knowledge of the instrument you're proposing to teach, good overall musicianship and secure technique but if you can't play everything perfectly to your pupils (especially in the higher grades) then, so long as you're a good (and hopefully inspiring) teacher, it's not a big deal. It's virtually impossible where you have 40+ pupils a week to be on top of every piece they are studying.
Also, as you get older you do have to work harder to retain your own physical dexterity on your instruments and time is just not on my side for long practise sessions right now to master everything in my pupils' current repertoires. I'd love to do hours of work on my own playing but, for now, I'm busy trying to inspire the next generation of musicians. Maybe one day, I'll have time for myself - though, needless to say, if I'm playing a concert (especially a solo one) I do put the hours in, whatever time of day I can find!
andante_in_c
Mar 7 2007, 09:49 PM
I occasionally find myself teaching Grade 8 pieces I can't play to performance standard (yet!), but I can usually work through them enough to be reasonably confident in teaching them. I think the hardest one I've taught in this category is the first movement of the Martinu Sonata, and I spent a couple of sessions on it with my own teacher whilst I was teaching it to my Grade 8 student.
I am set for an interesting August this year, as the syllabus change for 2008 means I will have to learn some new Grade 6-8 repertoire for September. Teaching in a Sixth Form college almost guarantees me students who will need to get started learning pieces from the new syllabus as soon as they start back in September. I'll have a frantic 3-4 weeks ordering and learning them if it's like the last time.
KixMusic
Mar 7 2007, 11:05 PM
When I was a kid my teacher never used to demonstrate when I got to the higher grades. In fact she never even used to bring an instrument to my lessons. When I was starting out she would say "your doing it wrong, it goes like this" and then play it but never actually tell me what was wrong.
I generally do demonstrate to my students and have found teaching this last couple of terms really hard as I have been restricted in my playing as I was waiting for surgery. Sometimes it is vital to back up an explanation with a demonstration. I can't wait to start doing so again.
organ_dummy
Mar 8 2007, 12:51 AM
Hello Paulara,
I asked similar questions on this forum last spring.
Now that I have changed teacher and have experienced the differences, I am convinced of the importance of a teacher being able to demonstrate well. A competent teacher should be able to demonstrate the less advanced pieces their entirety and selected passages in the more advanced pieces.
My previous teacher was good with error detection, but he was not good at identifying the cause of a problem or providing possible solutions. As he had not studied most of the pieces that I was working on and had very poor sight reading skills, he was unable to demonstrate, not even a short passage. Because he could not play the pieces himself, he was also unable to identify faulty fingering and pedalling, and other incorrect physical motion. His favourite advice was to tell me to practise only a few bars at a time, slowly and with the metronome on, so that I could refine my physical motion. Sometimes I had no idea which of my physical motion needed refinement, even after doing a lot of slow practice. I felt like I had to interpret my teacher's verbal descriptions and translated them to actual sounds completely on my own. I was not always successful with that. More often than not, I would make changes that were unneccessary while the original problems remained or worsened. My lessons were quite stressful and unproductive at times as my teacher would tell me to repeat something over and over again without telling me or showing me *how* to fix something. There were times when I asked him to demonstrate, but he would simply refuse to.
My previous teacher would make comments such as "your sixteenth notes need more articulation" or "there are too many wrong notes in the pedal." In response to the same problems, my current teacher would say instead "you need to pay more attention to the release" or "you need to prepare your feet in advance and not let them wander around on the pedalboard." He would then demonstrate a short passage, if need be. I get to hear and see what I should be doing. Consequently, what used to take weeks to fix can now be fixed in a week or two. I save a lot of time, energy and money.
Furthermore, as my current teacher has a much wider knowledge of the repertoire and plays most of the pieces that I am working on, he is able to offer insightful comments on interpretation. By comparison, my previous teacher tends to be very pedantic.
Roseau
Mar 8 2007, 08:36 AM
I had never really thought about this having always had teachers who have demonstrated things to me. At the end of last year I brought in an oboe piece (Donizetti "Solo for Oboe"which I since discovered is on a Grade 7 list) and told my teacher I wanted to work on it over the summer. It had never really occurred to me that he wouldn't know it - I bought it because I had heard it on a CD and liked it - but he had neither seen it nor heard it before. I didn't expect him to play it for me (after all I knew what it sounded like) but he did. Something which surprised me a little at the time was how carefully he looked at it before he started playing. (Having grown up with exam sight-reading tests with 30 seconds to look at things which don't really encourage you to take your time). He also managed to talk intelligently about it while doing so, (so I didn't have the impression that I was standing there waiting) making comparisons with a Donizetti piece for cor anglais which he did know, pointing out a few bars that he thought I might find tricky and suggesting how I could practise them. He played a couple of bars, checked with me that the tempo was right, and then played the whole thing with very little difference from the CD recording which I must have listened to hundreds of times. I must admit that I was very impressed, not only by his ability to sight-read something to performance standard but also by the way he was able to talk through his own mental preparation time.
adagiok5
Mar 8 2007, 11:26 AM
I always demonstrate pieces to my pupils. I have 40 pupils. I personally would feel if I could not play the pieces myself I would not have such a thorough understanding of problems involved in playing them and how to get round such problems. It involves a lot of work on my part to go through all the music. The only thing perhaps I do not play so well are none exam pieces. But when it comes to the exam syllabus I do know the peices very well and I think thats how it should be. After all once you know the syllabus there should not be any excuse not to demonstrate as the syllabus now lasts for three years its just a case of swotting up when the new one comes out..
sarah-flute
Mar 8 2007, 11:35 AM
I wouldn't necessarily expect a teacher to play all the pieces on the syllabus to performance standard just like that, but I would expect them to be able to 1) give a general idea of a piece 2) know how to help the student overcome technical or musical difficulties 3) be able to demonstrate something well if the student needed them to (with 2 and 3 possibly requiring the teacher to go and do a bit of work or research, but I would expect them to be capable of it even if it wasn't instant) - some teachers can teach without that but I think those who can teach excellently on an instrument that they cannot demonstrate are liable to be exceptions rather than the rule.
I wouldn't try and teach a piece that I couldn't do that with... I wouldn't consider it fair on the student to try and teach a piece that I couldn't help them out with as necessary if they came unstuck. I may only find that out through experience I guess, but if I found myself teaching to a student and unable to give them the technical advice they needed, or demonstrate sections of pieces well enough to help them out where necessary, I would consider it was time to either do some serious work so that I WAS able, or help the student find another teacher. I don't think that a teacher NECESSARILY has to be accomplished miles beyond the student in that specific instrument (though I think the ideal should be someone who is a very good player), especially when the student has got to a level where technique is reasonably sound and established, but they should have the knowhow to help that student get better, or what is the point of them paying me for lessons?
My teacher hardly ever demonstrates to me - I don't expect it (she's 96, see another topic elsewhere) but when she was a spring chicken in her 80s she didn't demonstrate. In fact I would be put off having to get up from the piano to allow her to play it through. I think the trick of a really good teacher is how they convey the message to of what they want to hear from you.
Let's face it, at grade 8 you don't need to be taught any of the technicalities, you are being taught how to practice. And if sight reading is a problem, remember the only way to learn sight reading is to sight read.
sarah-flute
Mar 8 2007, 02:26 PM
I don't expect that all teachers will necessarily demonstrate a lot - I would just expect them to be able to reasonably well if necessary. The first is a matter of teaching style of teacher/learning style of student/level of lesson/where in the learning process the piece is, etc. The second is a matter of being able to play well enough to convey something to the student that isn't getting across any other way.
My piano teacher plays a lot less in my lessons these days as my ability and confidence sight-reading on the piano has grown, and generally he only demonstrates snippets to show what he means BUT if I need him to he can demonstrate anything I need at my level - not always with me standing up and him taking over the piano, sometimes he demonstrates in a different octave, sometimes he will play one hand of the piano piece so I can practise the other and hear how it fits together - etc. My flute teacher hardly ever played in lessons as I recall (it's been a while) but again she very capable of doing so if necessary, and I learn a lot just from hearing her play - it gives me something to strive for apart from anything else! I don't play a lot in the flute lessons that I give, but I'm more than equal to doing so if it helps my student, and I can demonstrate the things that I want her to do (say on tone production or similar) so that she knows what she is trying for.
I would tend to agree that at a higher level demonstrations of entire pieces aren't generally necessary (& if pieces are long, could end up being a waste of lesson time). And as I said, I wouldn't expect a teacher to necessarily sight-read everything perfectly first time. I would expect them to be able to give me some idea of a piece if necessary, and to demonstrate/be able to give help with difficulties in smaller sections if necessary (not necessarily off the top of their heads if the pieces wasn't one they knew inside out, and dependent on the level).
andante_in_c
Mar 8 2007, 03:42 PM
I like to give students as much choice as possible, and therefore need to demonstrate or at the least have recordings of syllabus pieces. The flute syllabus is rather more extensive than the piano syllabus, and requires (currently) significant expenditure to own a reasonable number of pieces on each list.
The CDs which came with the last syllabus included List C, the current ones do not. The Grades 6-8 CDs were only available twelve months into the current syllabus. All this has meant a considerable amount of sight reading/repertoire learning just to give students a reasonable idea of the pieces. It's also much better if they can hear the pieces played with the accompaniment.
Thankfully, the new flute books/CDs should solve most of these problems (for Grades 1-7 at least) as long as they are available for the Autumn term.
JulieCSM
Mar 8 2007, 04:15 PM
Generally the only time I will sit at the piano to play a piece is right at the beginning when we are choosing pieces for exams. I rarely if ever play the entire piece, usually just the first two pages or so, which gives the pupil an idea of what it sounds like and me an idea of its difficulty.
I always explain that this is sightreading for me (unless its something I previously know) and the kids don't expect me to play it note perfect.
But then once the pieces have been chosen I do take time to study them, not to performance standard as I don't have that kind of time, but certainly so I can get an idea of what difficulties lie ahead and so I can demonstrate when necessary.
But I much prefer to teach a piece I have already previously studied to performance level.
chocolatedog
Mar 8 2007, 05:07 PM
I used to teach flute aswell as piano but after returning home after spending 18 months abroad I found I wasn't really finding the time to practise both instruments. So as I wasn't playing the flute much anymore I decided not to teach it anymore as I felt I wouldn't be able to spot problems in my pupils' playing as I was 'out of touch' with the instrument. For myself, I feel it is important to demonstrate for pupils - I wouldn't feel right if I couldn't - but it might be different for another teacher. I think when I'm much much older I probably won't be able to demonstrate anymore, but I'll still know to be able to teach, because I've been there, so to speak.
sbhoa
Mar 8 2007, 06:48 PM
Going back to the first post would teachers generally expect a grade 8 student to have to listen to the music to be able to learn it?
By the time I was past grade 5 my experience is that with something new I might be expected to have a sight read through a section of a new piece in the lesson before going home to start learning it but mostly I wouldn't have things played through for me first.
sonataform
Mar 8 2007, 11:21 PM
QUOTE(sbhoa @ Mar 8 2007, 06:48 PM)
Going back to the first post would teachers generally expect a grade 8 student to have to listen to the music to be able to learn it?
By the time I was past grade 5 my experience is that with something new I might be expected to have a sight read through a section of a new piece in the lesson before going home to start learning it but mostly I wouldn't have things played through for me first.
One of mine asked me to sightread the whole flaming Grade 8 book (although I'd played a couple of the pieces before). It was just to get a quick idea of what pieces she was interested in and make a rough choice - it was understood on both sides that she might change her mind later. I was perfectly OK with this.
andante_in_c
Mar 9 2007, 06:36 AM
QUOTE(sbhoa @ Mar 8 2007, 06:48 PM)
Going back to the first post would teachers generally expect a grade 8 student to have to listen to the music to be able to learn it?
By the time I was past grade 5 my experience is that with something new I might be expected to have a sight read through a section of a new piece in the lesson before going home to start learning it but mostly I wouldn't have things played through for me first.
Turning the question round, is it reasonable to ask a student just beginning Grade 8 to sight read the pieces, when, as AP pointed out earlier, this isn't a requirement even of LRSM?
Some sections will be readable, certainly, but many not. It rather depends on what the issues are whether listening to the piece helps or not. With a flute piece, it's often the case that the unreadable bits are fast runs or sequences that need lots of breaking down into small chunks and multiple repetitions to get them under the fingers. With very modern pieces, sometimes the rhythms are too syncopated or complex to read easily, and listening would help. With piano pieces often the issue is hearing hands together up-to-speed, which can be helpful when one is at the slow hands-separately-and-trying-to work-out-the-fingering stage.
I would not expect a student to pick a higher level piece without hearing it first. They are likely to have to live with it for a while, after all, and with most Grade 8 pieces costing around £10-£12 each, changing pieces is often not an option.
carol*piano
Mar 9 2007, 09:37 AM
QUOTE(sonataform @ Mar 8 2007, 11:21 PM)
One of mine asked me to sightread the whole flaming Grade 8 book (although I'd played a couple of the pieces before). It was just to get a quick idea of what pieces she was interested in and make a rough choice - it was understood on both sides that she might change her mind later. I was perfectly OK with this.
yep - been there done that...
it's necessary to be able to give a rough idea surely - cheaper than buying the CD!
I demonstrate all the time, and that is why I limit the grades my pianists do to Grade 5/6 - 7 at a push, my oboists are limited to Grade 8 and I would find time to relearn the repertoire if necessary, and my singers currently to grade 8 although that's the one most likely to change.
Its a style issue. I teach in a very hands-on manner, other people are better as describing. My oboe is always out for my one students lesson (although if she is playing with piano accompaniment I tend to demonstrate things either on my voice or using the piano).
if pupils are happy and making progress with a teacher who does not demonstrate much, then I have no problem with that. Its just that this is not the way I work and my pupils are all progressing well.
Suepea
Mar 9 2007, 11:08 AM
QUOTE(Col @ Mar 8 2007, 02:19 PM)
Let's face it, at grade 8 you don't need to be taught any of the technicalities, you are being taught how to practice.
I would have thought it would have been the other way round - I teach my pupils how to practice from the start, but knowledge of technique increases with each grade and grade 8 requires more advanced technique than previous grades.
jon.adkins
Mar 12 2007, 03:32 PM
A very interesting topic, and you've had loads of replies! Just in case you're still reading them, it sounds to me as though you are no longer getting much from the teacher. One should have a very good understanding of what one is teaching, and be able to communicate it well, even if one can't give a note-perfect performance of all the Grade VIII pieces!
If you have a lot on, the upheaval of finding a new teacher might seem unwelcome, but if you find a good one through personal recommendation it will be worth it.
paulara
Mar 12 2007, 05:18 PM
Thank you everyone for your opinions n advice.
Yes , it is indeed frustrating . I am able to learn the exam pieces rather quickly on my own, like 2 to 3 weeks per piece after listening to the CD .I could play the entire piece through from memory with satisfactory fluency & near the intended tempo.( please, I don't mean to say I've got it nailed. There's plenty of polishing needed and i don't know how ) So it's not like I need the teacher to play every single bar or every single piece for me .
BUT, BUT... my progress ends there !
I need a teacher who can teach me the style of the composer n the period, the phrasing and the touch. Surely it will be better that the teacher demonstrates what she means than just give some vague instructions.( A picture speaks a thousand words !) My fingering may not be ideal in certain places, that's why my notes aren't crystal clear. and i need the teacher to be alert to the wrong notes i might have overlooked. So it's extremely frustrating when the teacher says to play in a different way ( bec her music score is different from my AB book ), i ask her to show me what she means but she can't even play the few bars properly. So how am I to be convinced that hers is indeed the right n better way????
Another pet peeve is when the teacher doesn't " keep up " with your learning stages. Why tell me to change things AFTER i've been playing the same way for MONTHS !! Of course I don't mean things like interpretation where ideas could suddenly grow on you after a while, but the simple obvious things like wrong notes, legato instead of detached, wrong accents etc, things that could have easily been spotted by a discerning teacher & solved within a couple of playing through. I become resentful and my teacher thinks i just don't like to change and is being disobedient. Understandably, my teacher is very busy and I don't expect her to play the entire piece PERFECTLY , but surely... at least better than the student ?
My teacher is indeed very kind and nice and i don't really want to hurt her feelings but at the same time, I feel very very bored during lessons because i feel i'm not improving much.
skylark
Mar 12 2007, 07:14 PM
QUOTE(paulara @ Mar 12 2007, 05:18 PM)
Have you decided what you're going to do to change
into
?
pianodub
Mar 12 2007, 07:16 PM
you definitely need a new teacher paulara...
I was in the same position as you. I have the same teacher for nine years and was very fond of her...she is a lovely woman. But she was uninspiring and I don't actually ever remembering hearing her play any of my pieces. I was just told what I would learn next. I had zero confidence and stopped practicing because I just thought I was rubbish.
eventually I was totally put off the instrument. I stopped lessons entirely and didn't really play for around a year. I am now back with a different teacher who is well able to give me the advice and information I need. And now I am quite happy to play for people and feel a new lease of life on the piano.
Don't leave it too much longer! You sound very motivated...it would be a shame if you felt you had wasted too much time because you didn't want to hurt your teacher's feelings! That's how I felt.
organ_dummy
Mar 13 2007, 01:10 AM
Paulara,
You should definitely find another teacher, one that is more experienced in teaching advanced students. I have been through the same situation. For many months, I hesitated to change teacher because I had entered exams. I had also wondered if my frustration was my own fault as there were times when I questioned my previous teacher's ideas. It was only recently that I realized I was indeed the one to blame. My previous teacher was fine with junior and intermediate repertoire but was not experienced at playing or teaching advanced materials. It was wrong for me to expect more than what he was capable of doing. So my choices were either to stay with my previous teacher and be satisfied with playing advanced pieces at a mediocre level, or to move on to a better teacher and learn new approaches. Needless to say, I went for the latter option.
ad_libitum
Mar 13 2007, 12:09 PM
I'm still reading this thread with interest
I think being able to communicate ideas effectively is important, so you don't have to rely on demonstrating every little point you make. For very young students though, who may not know anyone else who plays their instrument, or don't hear much music at home, demonstration can be invaluable.
If you play something, and they say "I want to play that!" that's great because they are excited about it. It also means you can be sneaky.... "Well, I would teach you it today only you really need to be quite good at arpeggios/D major scale before you start".... It's a much better way to get someone practising than simply for the reason that "it's on the exam syllabus"
chocolatedog
Mar 13 2007, 05:49 PM
QUOTE(paulara @ Mar 12 2007, 05:18 PM)
Thank you everyone for your opinions n advice.
Yes , it is indeed frustrating . I am able to learn the exam pieces rather quickly on my own, like 2 to 3 weeks per piece after listening to the CD .I could play the entire piece through from memory with satisfactory fluency & near the intended tempo.( please, I don't mean to say I've got it nailed. There's plenty of polishing needed and i don't know how ) So it's not like I need the teacher to play every single bar or every single piece for me .
BUT, BUT... my progress ends there !
I need a teacher who can teach me the style of the composer n the period, the phrasing and the touch. Surely it will be better that the teacher demonstrates what she means than just give some vague instructions.( A picture speaks a thousand words !) My fingering may not be ideal in certain places, that's why my notes aren't crystal clear. and i need the teacher to be alert to the wrong notes i might have overlooked. So it's extremely frustrating when the teacher says to play in a different way ( bec her music score is different from my AB book ), i ask her to show me what she means but she can't even play the few bars properly. So how am I to be convinced that hers is indeed the right n better way????
Another pet peeve is when the teacher doesn't " keep up " with your learning stages. Why tell me to change things AFTER i've been playing the same way for MONTHS !! Of course I don't mean things like interpretation where ideas could suddenly grow on you after a while, but the simple obvious things like wrong notes, legato instead of detached, wrong accents etc, things that could have easily been spotted by a discerning teacher & solved within a couple of playing through. I become resentful and my teacher thinks i just don't like to change and is being disobedient. Understandably, my teacher is very busy and I don't expect her to play the entire piece PERFECTLY , but surely... at least better than the student ?
Edit: sorry - pressed add reply before I'd written anything!!!!
Yes, I think it's important to be able to demonstrate something of the different styles of the composers - so for Classical period - eg Mozart/Haydn, to be able to demonstrate balance and touch to achieve the light and sparkling sound required. Yes it can be described but I think demonstration is also invaluable.....it's like when I started teaching (classroom) and everyone advised me to go in on the first day tough and strict but unless you have seen tough and strict how do you know what it is???? The lessons I had observed before that, the teachers had already built up a rapport and respect with their classes so I never really saw "tough and strict" to learn from.......(which is why I left the classroom after 1 term........!!!!!!! and will never go back!!!!!)
My teacher is indeed very kind and nice and i don't really want to hurt her feelings but at the same time, I feel very very bored during lessons because i feel i'm not improving much.
chocolatedog
Mar 13 2007, 06:01 PM
Sorry - pressed the wrong key........
anyway, as I was going to say, I think demonstration is invaluable - yes style and touch can be described but I think it's learned more quickly when it's demonstrated .....my teacher always demonstrated for me, so that I could copy him and understand what he was wanting me to achieve. He quite often made it into aural training - he would play 2 subtly different versions and ask me what the difference was and which I preferred, and would also play the way I had just played it versus the way he wanted me to play it to compare the 2........I don't think the pupil becomes spoonfed and robotic as a result - it's giving them the tools and training to then be able to apply for themselves in other similar pieces they come across later......especially in instinctively knowing the style features of a piece eg the sparkling touch and careful balance needed for Mozart/Haydn etc and Beethoven's more "raw" style etc......
Frederic Chopin
Mar 13 2007, 06:05 PM
All my teachers from Grade 8 onwards demonstrate for me - this can be inspiring as well!
yamaha
Mar 13 2007, 06:31 PM
I think demonstration of at least sections of the music is very important
As a teacher myself, I find it the most effective teaching tool available
If I want to teach a piece that I cannot play, I learn it first beofre presenting it to the student, this to me, is part of my job. My own teacher is a fabulous pianist with the most awesome sight reading skills I have ever come across!! Aside from the fact that it helps me when he demonstrates, it's also hugely inspiring
pianodub
Mar 13 2007, 10:16 PM
QUOTE(yamaha @ Mar 13 2007, 06:31 PM)
My own teacher is a fabulous pianist with the most awesome sight reading skills I have ever come across!! Aside from the fact that it helps me when he demonstrates, it's also hugely inspiring
Me too! And it encourages me to aim to do the same for my students. Although none are currently above grade five or so I intend to continue working on my piano skills so that I can play their grade eight pieces to a reasonable degree at sight for them. Very important!!!
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