Just running through scales and suddenly realised I'm not sure of the fingering for this!

Descending is straightforward as only one fingering really works, but ascending I've managed to come up with two... - one seems better than the other but neither seems particularly intuitive or sane... what is the "normal" fingering, anyone??

hmmm, and the fingering for the arpeggio too...

Can't find the scale book.......

I *think* I use

RH:

Bb - C - Db - Eb - F - G - A - Bb- C - Db - Eb - F - G- A - Bb
2 -- 1 -- 2 -- 3 -- 1 -- 2 -- 3-- 4-- 1-- 2 -- 3 -- 1-- 2-- 3-- 4

LH:

Bb - C - Db - Eb - F - G - A - Bb- C - Db - Eb - F - G- A - Bb
2 -- 1 -- 3 -- 2-- 1 -- 4 -- 3-- 2 -- 1 -- 3-- 2 -- 1 -- 4 --3-- 2

Yes, my old Grade VII scale book matches what Ben said (although some of the alignment's a bit wonky).

Where were the problems, Sarah? My scales took a great leap forward when Piano Teacher pointed out that RH Bb is always 4 (with the obvious exception of the first note of scales which start on Bb), and that in flat major scales, LH 4 is (with the exception of F major) the newest flat.

I use the same fingering as Ben

I have tried to get them align but they jsut won't

And on the way down remember that thumbs come on white notes and the rest are on black notes only

Thanks folks. I'll write that out and take it downstairs! It's one of those things that I know I KNOW, or at least knew, but I managed to come up with 2 different versions of the same scale neither of which were completely satisfactory.

Descending isn't a problem - the fingering sorts itself out with so many black notes. I was just doing something very odd on the way up!

It might help to work out which note your 4th finger plays in each hand (you use it only once in each octave).
If you've got that it can help everything else fall into place.

Same as Ben (although it took me a while to realise the alignment was wonky........ !) as it uses RH 4th on Bb which is a general rule in "flat" scales and which is also the same fingering on the way down with the flattened 6th and 7th notes.....

What's all this about wonky alignment?? I'm being thick - sorry

The note names and fingerings don't line up in Ben's post!

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!

I thought it was some weird pianistic thing I wasn't aware of

I was too busy looking at the finger numbers to notice they didn't fit with the letter names

Thanks!!

I didn't get it at first too!

Phew!

It's too much effort to align them all

Try this, which I use for my pupils:-
RH:
4 - 1 - 2 - 3- 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 1 - 2 - 3 - 1 - 2 - 3 - 4

LH:
2 - 1 - 3 - 2 - 1 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1 - 3 - 2 - 1 - 4 - 3 - 2

I start them off in the right hand on finger 4, as this is where they're going to end up on the octave above. Also, the fingering I've quoted are more 'friendly' with each other. Let me know if it works for you.

That's not good enough, Ben!

OK!

It is now aligned...

everyone happy?

I sort of liked them squinty

Oh Shut up!

Shutting up now

Ben you have waaaaay too much time on your hands...

You could've used a code box...

But apart from that, it's fine

Car Expert

I had a bit of an epiphany about melodic minor scales on saturday during a lesson with one of my G8 students... i suddenly realised that descending you are playing the relative major scale beginning on the 6th of the major scale....seems to take a bit of the "oh no, scary melodic minor scales..." away from the situation when you think about it..!! Or maybe everyone else has realised this years ago and I'm just light years behind...

Yes that certainly helps to know this. I tell my pupils that when they are ascending, think of the Major scale with the same name, but flatten the 3rd note ( all the other notes are the same as the Major). The 3rd note that you flattened (relative Major) is the major scale you need to descend in (the 6th like you said). Hope this helps. It's certainly helped all my pupils!

My sax teacher tells pupils it is a Major Scale with a flattened 3rd and my piano teacher says it is a Minor bottom with a major top

Tips for melodic minors. You go up like the major scale, but play the third flattened (i.e its a minor third above the tonic) and go down exactly as it states in the key signature.

Using this method even my grade 1 pianists end up wanting to play the melodic minors as it avoid the awkward agumented second between the submediant and leading note.

As for play b scales regardless of being major or minor: there are only two places to put the thumb, namely F and C. You need three fingers to do the bit between C and F and Four to cover between F and C. Remember that and these scales suddenly become much easier.

These are the fingerings that I now use. My piano teacher is very picky about scale/arpeggio fingering and I've had to re-learn some of them, which has been a real pain after all this time. However, my scales are now 100% better than they were. B flat in all forms is my "bete noir" though.