I spent the whole of the weekend trying to get my daughter not to blow her Clarinet so hard. On the 3rd practise yesterday I really felt we had taken a step forward. Tonight I sat outside her Sax lesson to hear her blowin like fury on the sax. The explaination she was learing vibrato.

What sort of standard do you need to be before vibrato is introduced on Sax? My daughter took Grade 2 last Spring. Her tone isn't bad but she overblows quite a lot on both instruments. She has the same teacher for each.

I'm not sure there's a definitive answer on this one - I guess it depends on what style you're playing, what your teacher thinks, your natural inclinations etc. No idea where I sit grade wise on sax but I'm fairly confident it's a good bit above grade 2 - I rarely use vibrato, partly that's my style of playing and partly I've never found it easy to make it sound natural and its never got to the top of my list of things to really work on and sort out. I think it's important to have a good solid sound, consistent over the range of the instrument and with plenty of air support before worrying about vibrato, but there's no need to blow any harder when you do use vibrato.

What do you mean by overblowing? blowing so you produce overtones (what I tend to mean by overblow) i.e. up an octave or 12th on sax? playing loudly? putting so much air through that the tone suffers? You do need to put a lot of air through the sax to get a good sound, it's probably better to put too much through rather than too little, then you need to learn to control it.

It seems to me that your daughters teacher is getting her to use Vibrato using the Diaphragm hence the blowing harder. On the saxophone you play vibrato using the jaw by making Wah wah movements.

Vibrato isn't necessary at all for grade exams. although in some cases it can enhance a performance. I agree with TSax that you should have a good solid sound first. At around grade 6 vibrato comes in useful.

Her teacher is getting her to use her jaw for vibrato as I understand it. I think both of you are suggesting what I thought, get a good basic sound and worry about advanced technique later.

I think my daughter is just blowing harder/louder, not that she's especially been asked to, she has a tendancy towards this any way.

TSax I mean playing louder than required and then when ussing dynamics squeeking. Sorry but not being musical I find it difficult to describe. Perhaps she needs to learn more control.

It's a lot easier to play loud with a good sound than quiet on sax. When you reduce the amount of air the sound can get thin and wavery, or you end up using your mouth to support the note instead of the air so you bite and play sharp. There's a bit of mouthpiece/reed combination coming into it, but mostly it's learning to control the air-stream. I'm shockingly poor at this myself when I play alto - it's significantly higher up my list of things I really need to work on and get sorted than vibrato!

I feel sure you're tright that it's a combination of problems I find it odd that she has similar traits on both Sax and Clari. I can understand Sax to a degree because she played Clarinet first and on Sax she definately needs a stronger reed.

I agree that sorting out any problems with sound should come before anything else but as I openly admit to not being musical i don't feel I can front the teacher with it. I've not had a good relationship with her since I stopped her teaching my youngest Flute (it was my fault she didn't teach Viva Voce for Grade 4 Trinity). It must also be a bit difficult for the teacher that for Grade 1 the younger one got the highest marks out of everyone taking an exam, on an instrument, without a teacher.

Interestingly my youngest daughter took Grade 3 Sax today (without any formal lessons) and the girl after her played Clarinet in the same way as my eldest. They have the same teacher in common!

I am probably around grade 2/3 on sax and I was told that I shouldn't even try to use vibrato because my embouchure isn't developed and secure enough. I must add that its my second instrument so that might be why its not secure...I don't know. But I do know that on the flute we weren't taught about vibrato until we were studying for grade 6

I am a flute player and started using vibrato about grade 5. I also play sax and haven't yet attempted to play vibrato. I don't think those doing the lower grades should run before they can walk and I think young ones will have a better understanding of what vibrato is once they mature a bit.

Producing a nice tone comes first.

This is probabaly true of my daughter too. Strangely my youngest developed vibrato on Flute shortly after Grade 2 but she was not taught it at all and it was possibly due to learning diaphragm breathing for Oboe.

I have a friend who has natural vibrato. This isn't a problem - she'll have to learn how to control it later on though! That could cause a bit more difficulty for her...

She did not have much of a problem with controlling it although at the very start she was doing vibrato on everything including Recorder. I think she learnt to control it quickly because that type of vibrato is not good on Oboe, her teacher would have helped if it had become a problem.

It's possible that the teacher is teaching vibrato not so much as a technique she can use musically in her playing, but because the principles can help demonstrate the importance of air-support, differences in clari/sax playing and help loosen an overtight embouchure (fairly common moving from clarinet to sax).

As you move

oboe -> clarinet -> sax -> flute

the instruments become increasingly less resistant and require a greater volume of air (part of the reason sarah-flute was experiencing the breathing problems she was posting about clarinet a little while ago). The tendency for clarinettists moving to sax is to not use enough air but to sort of compensate by using a tighter embouchure (more clarinet-like) and supporting the note with the mouth rather than air, this results in a thinner sound that gets increasingly sharp going up the instrument and can make the low notes difficult to play. To play vibrato on sax you lower the jaw. If you do this when you're playing in the mouth rather than air support mode the note will disappear and you'll get an awful honking instead, hence practising lowering the jaw and maintaining a decent sound can help to develop the appropriate air-support and embouchure for sax. This is all horribly familiar to me because I've been there, done that!

Thanks I think I understand where you're coming from! I have reservations that someone who is teaching their third instrument and hasn't attempted to correct Clarinet (second Instrument) technique actually knows what they are doing. Sax isn't nearly as big a problem as clarinet, that's why I'm doubtful but I really hope you're right!

Definitely - too many times vibrato is used to mask poor tone (on many instruments) and that is horrible.

I developed natural vibrato on the flute, and then had to learn how to control it. Some players use a constant fast vib and that (IMO) is worse than none at all


Yep! getting there...

I didn't realise sax used more than clari - maybe that's why some flautists find it a better doubling instrument...

Hope your daughter manages to get this figured out.

*shakes head* I keep glancing over at the title of this thread and thinking it says something rather different...

Oh, surely not! ....



I have had an email "chat" with a professional player and teacher -- much more important than vibrato is a good sound, control, sense of pitch, diaphragm breathing....

Confirms the general consensus thanks!

when you regularly visit websites like sax.co.uk, saxontheweb.net, saxsaxsax.com etc you have to be very careful about your spelling!

even then people don't believe you when you say you are off to a sAx workshop, do they? They give a little knowing sort of smile... and the 'oh yeah...' response

Perhaps they know you too well!!!

errrmmm music workshop.... music... right??