I've been playing violin for about a month and I'm playing about grade one standard. I've decided my aim to is be able to do vibrato as it seems all good players do it and it makes the tone much nicer. What grade do you start doing this at?
Also, someone told me is comes naturally but I can't possibly think it would be natural to wiggle your wrist about that much! Does it come naturally?
Thanks,
Lil_miz_music xx

Bowed strings general regulation h:


Which isn't to say you can't start earlier if you like, that's just when they expect you to be able to do it I never got that far on the cello (I only played for less-than-two-years)...

First and least helpful answer is "when you're ready" - ie when it's not going to mess up with your technique!

In exams it's expected at grade 5 I think, though don't rely on my memory.

But in the end - whether you develop it naturally or are taught it (and both are possible), don't look on it as something to make your tone nicer. Constant vibrato on not great tone isn't nice, honest! The vibrato is icing on top of good sound, and a good player should be able to make a nice sound even if there's no vibrato.

I used to think that vibrato would make my tone nice (because it wasn't!) and ended up playing with (not very good) vibrato on a (not very good) basic sound. It isn't a good combination!!

So what am I trying to say?? - don't run before you can walk - you may develop it naturally, but you can also be taught - it isn't something reserved for a privileged few who have it naturally - but it's also no substitute for making a good sound in the first place

I can't reiterate these two points enough. Good technique, building and controlling the muscles in the left shoulder, arm and hand (plus development of correct bowing technique) is the foundation of playing the violin. To try and add vibrato (which is an advanced technique) at an early stage, would be very foolish and is likely to prove detrimental to long term progress. It would be like allowing someone who's only just started ballet to wear pointe shoes and letting them try to dance advanced steps en pointe - apart from the balance aspect, their feet and legs wouldn't be strong enough to cope.

Good intonation is important in the early stages. Vibrato is not there to hide poor intonation or poor tone quality. Vibrato added sensitively and with musicality can bring profound beauty to the notes. But continuous vibrato in the same form and to every note will sound just as boring as a piece played with absolutely no vibrato at all - unless of course it's a modern (or baroque) piece intended to be played without vibrato.

Work on your technique in both the left and right hand, learn to bring out the purity of your sound. Hear in your head the sound you would like from the violin and then experiment with drawing the bow to achive that sound. It will take a lot of practice, regular practice and quality practice to get results. There isn't any magic wand-waving that will let you achieve the skill overnight I'm afraid.

Remember, careful attention to basic technique now will pay dividends in the long run, so, BE PATIENT!!!

I've also been playing violin for about a month and am about grade 1 standard.

In terms of vibrato, I know what it is and I've seen my teacher do it but, I am well aware that it's not expected until grade 5. THat to me suggests it is an advanced and difficult technique that is not expected of beginners. Accordingly, I prefer to learn to walk before learning to run.

In fact the very idea of me learning vibrato when my current standard is pieces like "Fiddle Time" is laughable.

I'm happy to keep learning the basics under the guidance of my teacher, who is the BEST judge of what I'm ready for. I trust she will teach me vibrato at a later stage when SHE feels I am ready and not before.

What gets me is how you've both been playing only a month and are already at G1 standard!! I've been playing viola for 2 months now, practise a fair bit (albeit not as much as some on the forum are able to) and am nowhere near ready to think about G1 yet!

Well done!! What's your secret???

I know how you feel Elisabeth! I have been learning violin since December, so just over three months, and I'm not really near grade 1 standard either. However, I think there are more helpful targets than just 'grade 1'- working on a good solid base of technique is more important in my opinion. I would much prefer to feel secure at the basic levels than not to be really sure what I'm doing when I play...

My teacher says I am advancing fairly quickly, but she's used to teaching children, plus I lhad been learning the piano for eight months when I started, hence I knew how to read music etc., so I don't know how much her opinion counts There are definitely days when I think: oh how LONG will it be until I can play something I actually WANT to play??? When I think this, I remind myself that I will be better at playing what I want to play if I don't rush it now.

(Not to detract from anyone else who gets to grade 1 quickly of course; we all learn at different levels, but I just think that to be confident in what you are doing, even if it is not very advanced, is a lot better than to worry because you are not as advanced as others.)

Yes, I agree with you. I have nothing against grades as a benchmark or as a challenge to reach, but like you, I want to be a good player and I don't mind working longer on things if it means I can become that in the long run.

Oh yeah, like you too - not running down anyone who's been able to make it to G1 standard already.

I couldn't agree more. I have been learning the viola for 7 months, and would not be at all confident I could pass grade 1 yet. I have had to gently steer my teacher away from pieces which are too hard for me in favour of the basics. Perhaps some people say they are at grade 1 level when they mean they are studying grade 1 material?

Gee thanks .... hadn't thought about that. I've had about 5 lessons and I can play grade one pieces reasonably well.

My teacher does keep saying to me that I pick things up very quickly and she's very pleased me.
Don't get me wrong, i still make LOTS of mistakes.

I don't know really, I'm just not finding the violin very hard to pick up at all. I don't practice THAT much either: maybe 30 minutes a day, if that. But I am at a very early stage so far and so who knows if that will continue. I may well come unstuck later on...... but I hope I don't.

Definitely - especially with the violin and viola which really do need such a good technical basis, because it's HARD to get rid of bad habits.


It's often the case - at any grade level.

I don't know if I can also say I am at grade one level or not, I can tell you I can play fairly well 6 of the pieces out of the grade 1 book (hardly any mistakes and only at times) and I play other pieces on a similar kind of level (from book fast forward), I also have done my grade 1 scales (finally) and am about to do the arpeggios. This being on my 3rd month of violin playing.
but yes, really as Elizabeth and others have said it is important to lay good foundations and at your own pace (whatever this may be, for personal or other reasons it may be slower or quicker and it doesn't necessarily mean that if you go 'slower than others' you are not any good, it's the end result the important as we know).
I seem to be progressing smoothly on the piano too (just starting on grade 2 pieces now having done scales and arpeggios already), don't know why, it's just happening!
My violin teacher doesn't seem as bothered as I am on technique (or maybe I am SO good that I have hardly any faults? or maybe I have the wrong teacher ), he never seems to pick on anything about my bowing/fingering/position/etc, only once in 3 months he told me on one note I was slightly out of tune! He just keeps telling me a dozen times a lesson to give more expression and either he's totally paranhoid on it or I am truly very good at technique and rubbish at expression (which would not be good as you need that as a violinist or on any other instrument, but my piano teacher does not tell me I lack on this), I guess the only way to find out is to seek a second opinion LOL
sorry to 'waffle on' by the way

I have a big advantage... I've been playing piano for 3 years and can play Grade 8 pieces so that gives me a lot of musical experience, I nearly have grade 5 theory so that gives me quite a lot of musical knowledge, and I also play harp, guitar and sing. Basically, violin is my 5th instrument so it gets easier to pick them up! I've had 3 lessons so far (and loving it!) and won't be having another one for a month because of the holidays

Yes, I agree it is much more important to pick up the important techniques and work on getting a good tone without vibrato. It is just my dream to be able to play with vibrato and I wondered how many years it would take me!

Well, I am not ambious so I don't even know what G1 materials are I am just happy that I can play the basic chord of "Ode to Joy" and now can play "Bingo" & "Banana Boat" fairly well... Then my Irish Fiddler Teach has to go ahead showed me the pieces he plans on playing at his friend's party...

Is there any magick-pill out there you can take and instantly to play like someone been doing for 30+ years?

Bingo and Banana Boat sound cool
As for the pill, it's sold out and on back order, expected delivery date is the year 3500

You should start doing vibrato once, and only when your intonation is fairly secure...

[This is possibly around grade 3... (possibly 2) (and remember, that vibrato will take a while to master - not just a couple of months)]

Because you will find that some people use vibrato to cover up bad intonation, but that is just really awful - use vibrato to warm the notes and make them sound better...

I think is also worth pointing out that vibrato is not produced by a 'wiggle' of your wrist - this is a very basic misunderstanding so I would strongly advice against trying it out yourself because it isn't natural - nothing is natural about playing any instrument! If you start to experiment at this stage and develop a bad habit by not understanding the techinque it will be so much more difficult to put right later on.

Sorry - not meaning to sound poe-faced but the most beautiful dress in the world cannot hide bad foundation garments!!!

Or even maybe later - depending on the person.


Amen to that - ditto bad tone "covered up" with vibrato. Blech!

I actually didn't start using vibrato until around my grade 5 exam, because although I'd tried it a bit before that, I just didn't get it. It does make your playing sound better IF your playing is good to start with, but you can still make a nice sound on the instrument without it. Believe me, I did for rather a long time

No there isn't anything natural about playing an instrument, but some people do tend to take to the skills more easily than others.

I was never taught vibrato either on the violin or woodwind instruments. It did come naturally, but certainly not as early as Grade 1 standard. In real terms, it had probably developed a basic foundation by the time I'd reached a standard of about Grade 4.

ED: I will add though that Goldfinch is correct in saying that vibrato, even in its most basic form, is not simply a 'wiggle' of the wrist.

Oh yes... I taught the younger sister (I think she was probably 8 or 9 at the time) of a friend of mine vibrato a long time ago. I had been struggling with it for months (still can't do it properly, after *cough cough* years) - showed her exactly what my teacher showed me. She had it down in about 30 seconds.... Me, gobsmacked and incredibly jealous? Nah...

I developed vibrato naturally on the flute, but have yet to really develop it in any real kind of way for strings.........

WHAT foundation garments??!



What would be a good way to play vibrato if not wiggling the wrist? I have very stiff wrists right now because of CTS & weather changes, so my playings sound stiff and choppy...

The best!




Forget the wiggling wrist! Vibrato is produced by a minute movement from the fleshy pads of your fingers tips. This will produce a 'wiggling' from the elbow through the wrist but the wrist should remain relaxed and passive not active. Mmm - this is not easy to explain - I think AmandaL might have to eludicate! It's a bit like explaining how you swallow

Forget the wiggling wrist! Vibrato is produced by a minute movement from the fleshy pads of your fingers tips. This will produce a 'wiggling' from the elbow through the wrist but the wrist should remain relaxed and passive not active. [/quote]

Good, this is encouraging as, although I'm a LONG way off thinking about vibrato as yet, I always thought it had something to do with the fingers, not the wrist. Look forward to finding out more about that when the time's right. (In about 400 years, probably!!)

I developed vibrato myself, and was able to produce a passable sound after a few months, but it took years until I was happy with it and even then I am not sure that I am doing it "right".

I started purely because I was impatient to "sound like proper violinist". Back then I didn't even consider whether my notes were in tune or not. I had a peri teacher for a few months who never commented on such things (class of 3-4 students, 20 mins for a lesson - there was no time for finer points like that....). Then when I left school it never occurred to me I know that is awful and I would have been playing dreadfully out of tune for years.

Anyway, regarding the vibrato, I started by doing a "finger vibrato" - just by moving my finger up and down on the string. Gradually I began to develop the wrist vibrato, until the old lady who lived next door to me (who used to play the violin) told me to "learn to do arm vibrato, because wrist vibrato sounds awful". So I concentrated on that and eventually developed an OK-ish arm vibrato. The trouble was, I couldn't control the speed of the vibrato.

A few years back I had a couple of violin lessons with a girl who was studying at the RAM. She told me that I was badly out of tune all the time and my vibrato was too stiff and that I should learn to do wrist vibrato. Then I went into hospital and she graduated and she never taught me how to do it, but I've been developing it myself since then and now I am really quite proud of it because it's something I've done all by myself. I can control the speed and intensity of it and can colour notes with it exactly as I wish to, which feels very liberating. I also worked on really listening to whether I'm in tune or not......

However! My viola teacher told me that my vibrato needs to be wider for the viola. She said "We must get you learning arm vibrato" which was nice because I can already do that! It's gone rusty though, but at least I can do it to some extent, and don't have to start from scratch. I usually play with a combination of wrist and arm anyway.

Sorry, this was a bit of an essay!

*Envy*

W

< hat's off to Bunny> Wish I am as talented as you to be able to figure things out on my own...

*Back to Yoga exercising the wrists, the fingers, then building the fore-arm strength... sigh... *

lol I never realised there was more than one type of vibrato until my last violin lesson... Apparantly most people have EITHER rist OR arm vibrato, but it's a useful skill to have both. Spent about 15 mins today trying to "get" arm vibrato, but it's not really coming yet...

It was g4 for me
Got me good brownie points when i did it in my g4 exam

But as someone said earlier- learn to walk before you can run! Vibrato will do you more harm than good otherwise.
I do arm vibrato, but ive always wanted to learn wrist... I find it really hard to control the speed of arm vibrato :| So now I have to count how many times I 'wobble' my hand in a note, otherwise i end up only doing vibrato for half the note. For example... for a two beat note i'll 'wobble' 4 times- which is kind of slow i spose! I'm not sure if this is quite the right thing to do though.. I only have to do it for the first bar of a particular piece im doing now, it comes naturally for the rest of it.

Hi - new here though been lurking for a while (mostly on the organ forum).

My first teacher taught me arm vibrato, my second wrist vibrato, and my third a combination of the two which I find the best of the lot as it keeps everything nice and loose. "Imagine you are waving to yourself", she used to say.

Don't start too early, though - there is so much else to think about first.

But what I really want to say is that I started playing the violin at the age of 32 (I had played the piano a bit so could read music) and remember all the frustrations that you are having now ..... but keep at it for you WILL improve. It just takes time. After 2 1/2 years I did grade 6 and got distinction even though I was terrified in the exam. . . A couple of times I prepared for grade 8 but lost my nerve before taking the exam. However I have a lot of fun playing in amateur orchestras (starting at the back of the seconds, now 2nd desk on the firsts), small chamber groups, string quartets, Scottish fiddle music, even baroque violin (gut strings, no shoulder or chin rest, funny temperaments).

Kids don't mind or even notice what they sound like. Adults do - they know what good violin playing should sound like and so agonise because they can't match it. But keep working away at it - you CAN and WILL get there in the end!

Vibrato. Imagine waving at yourself. Hold you arm and hand in playing position. Now move the arm, from the elbow, backward and forward. Keep the wrist passive and the fingers curved as f they were over the fingerboard. Make the movement excessive to begin with so that you really feel the sensation. Scale that right down to miniscule movements of say one or two millimetres and you're on your way to vibrato.

This is not intended as a vibrato lesson and indeed I would not recommend anyone who is wanting to attempt vibrato do this exercise without the supervision of a violin/viola teacher.

Above all, do not force vibrato. If you are struggling with the movement, because you are forcing it, then your playing is not ready. It has to become a sub-conscious action that can be switched on or off effortlessly and applied with sensitivity to whatever you are playing. If you find yourself having to really think about the vibrato, your tone, or bowing, or all three!, then leave it until your tone production and bowing technique have become second nature.

A badly developed vibrato becomes a bad habit and will prove incredibly difficult, if not impossible, to break and re-model at a later stage.

I know...

W

I don't think there's really a certain stage at which you 'start' vibrato. For me it just sort of ..... happened. I wouldn't be able to give you a specific day when I consciously thought "I am going to do some vibrato today."

Sorry - not particularly helpful

I learnt it just after grade 3. Now, I can do it nealy perfectly.

My teacher only told me about vibrato a few months before my grade 4/5 exam (can't remember which one it was). He started off by getting me to slide my finger a semitone and back really slow and gradually increase the speed and practice this with all of your fingers and you'll soon get the idea of it. He also told me that I might find it helpful to put something like a cloth or sponge on the end of the scroll on the violin and place this against the wall to support the instrument when playing and practicing vibrato to begin with.

I also found it helpful to practice without the violin and find I still do this a lot! Place the tip of one of your fingers of your left hand on a surface like a table and rock it from side to side using your wrist. This is exactly the same movement you will use on the violin to achieve vibrato.

I can do it really well on the table...

W

I asked our teacher last night in the lesson about when he thinks it's good time to starting learning vibrato. His reply is normally when the students progress to EEfS2000 Book 2. So according the way I am progressing, it will be later on this year before I begin to worry about "Waving Hi to myself while curling hand in playing position" (Thank you AmandaL about the quick visiual description.) Although I am not looking forward to that tho... I tried to simulate the playing position and can't wiggle anything at all, arm, elbow, wrist, Nada thing

Does trembling or shaking count?

I can do it brilliantly on my hand....

(I can almost sense a society forming here )

It was a very long time ago but I seem to remember learning vibrato after starting 3rd position and shifting as I have a recollection of being taught it with my wrist resting on the body of the violin to keep my arm still and make the movement from the wrist.

I'm not sure about the table thing for practise, as I think this might produce the wrong movement i.e. a rotation at the forearm or wrist or a side to side motion rather than the waving motion.

In general I would avoid practise of vibrato in public without a violin as other people may missunderstand you!! But a left handed handshake with a bit of vibrato on the inside of the other person's wrist would make a good secret handshake for Sarah Flutes's society!

Ooooo... do ya'll accept oversea members? I can start a SFS Chapter here for you.

Absolutely - go for it! An international secret society - I like it!!

With an on-line virtual clubhouse???

KC - so there is a book 2. I was wondering about that.... I guess I'll have to order it as it's a US publication and it'll be harder to get hold of here, esp as it's the viola one I'll need.

I can do it really well on the table too hehe. Unfortunately, my teacher hasn't given me much instruction on vibrato. Currently, my 3rd finger vibrato happens to be the strongest.

I came across this article when I was searching for hands/fingers exercises that will help us "Older" folks who are adult beginners on string instruments.

Vibrato Exercises for a Stiff Wrist