I run an adult learners' orchestra which currently has 45 players in a ridiculously unbalanced group and always needs tailor-made arrangements. In the past various famous composers have made very successful orchestrations of organ music, and I'm wondering if any of you have suggestions of pieces you think would be good candidates for orchestration. At the moment my husband is kindly orchestrating the final fugue from Mendelssohn's organ sonata No.6, and he's going to orchestra the chorale prelude Op.122 No.11 O Welt ich muss dich lassen by Brahms.

I aim to have them play as wide a range of music as possible, in terms of period, style, types of difficulty etc., and so far (over nearly 12 years) we have played music from the 15th to the 21st centuries - my husband and daughter and a couple of other people have written original pieces for us. This term's repertoire, to be performed tomorrow, is a 10-part Canzon by Giovanni Gabrieli, a transcription of a 6-part motet by Stanford, a transcription (with permission, fee paid!) of a piano piece by Bartók and a slightly adapted version of a medley from Oklahoma. The particular skills in focus this term have been counting rests accurately (permanently on the agenda!), playing very quietly and legato, observing detailed dynamics in general, coping with time and speed changes.

Very few of the players have advanced technical skills so extended passage-work or anything that would cause lots of unavoidable string-crossing are out, and I aim to make sure that the bass players have interesting parts.

Most of the music we play is in the public domain, but if something still in Copyright is exactly right for the purpose I hope to be able to get permission to orchestrate. I only remember being refused outright once. In terms of fees publishers vary enormously in how generously they treat this sort of venture.

how about some Bach chorale preludes.. I know some have been arranged in the past, but these would work very nicely and offer opportunity for lots of colour in the arrangements.. most are on the slow side so in terms of technical difficulty they should fit well.. of course with an independent pedal part, the bass players will have a field day!

and I was wondering about Flor Peeters chorale preludes too.

I've already been looking at a few of them, as I recently invested in a DVD of the complete Bach Gesellschaft (mid 19th century edition of all the then known works, I believe), but if you can think of any that would be particularly suitable it will narrow the field down a bit! I've already used quite a lot of the shorter Bach chorale settings with the orchestra, giving everyone all four parts in an appropriate octave before putting them together as finished pieces. That way even the elementary players get to try all the lines, learn the rhythms etc. Bach's bass lines are unsurpassed, but his alto lines are also a revelation to anyone accustomed to English Victorian hymns! The chorales are so varied that I've been able to choose ones that gave the hardest parts to the instruments that happened to have the best players at the time. They have the great merit of being wonderful music as well as brilliant teaching material.

Maggie, Flor Peeters didn't die until 1986, so is very firmly still in Copyright. What would you say is unique or particularly distinctive about his music? I learnt the organ for a while at college and I think I had a tutor book that he wrote but I don't remember much about it and I didn't learn anything of his outside that book.

Please keep the ideas coming!

Maggie, Flor Peeters didn't die until 1986,

Yes - I did hesitate on that point. Maybe not the best suggestion.

I found his chorale preludes to have an interesting, slightly astringent idiom.
What about Haydn's pieces for musical clock ? Although maybe bass parts are not especially interesting.

Which Stanford ??

I've played Lefébure-Wély (or some similar name) Sortie in E flat arranged in a published edition for wind octet. Works well - might be fun for orchestra but I've no idea of his dates, copyright etc.

I'll keep the idea in mind but hope to find something comparable without Copyright complications! Thanks.

I think that's probably true. We have played a few of his orchestral movements, but there are too many brass players at the moment for those to be practical. I hope to get back to them some time.

This time it's Beati quorum via, which has really challenged everyone to play smoothly and quietly. The first 35 bars are marked p! A few bars are pp. I just hope everyone really makes the effort tomorrow. It can be quite magical. We have played it before (though with nothing like the same group of instruments and many fewer players, in a different key). I've also used Coelos ascendit hodie, which is antiphonal in 8 parts with lots of dotted quavers and semiquavers.



I've heard and enjoyed that. It always reminds me of the big Dutch street organs that we used to hear when we lived in Leiden. Great fun! I think it's very likely that the wind octet version will be recent and therefore in Copyright, but I would like to have a look at the organ original. It may be too difficult.

Here's what Wikipedia has to say about the composer. I hadn't realised he was so early. I would have guessed turn of the 19th/20th centuries:
"Louis James Alfred Lefébure-Wely (November 13, 1817, Paris – December 31, 1869, Paris) was a French organist and composer. He played a major role in the development of the French symphonic organ style and was a close friend of the organ builder Aristide Cavaillé-Coll, inaugurating many new Cavaillé-Coll organs. He was organist at Saint-Roche (1841-1846), at the Église de la Madeleine (1846-1858), and at Saint-Sulpice (1863-1869). Lefébure-Wely was born and died in Paris and is buried in the Père Lachaise cemetery there.

Perhaps his most celebrated composition is the Sortie in E-flat major. Another well-known composition is his Sortie in B-flat major. It is generally accepted that his compositions are more informed by brilliance than by taste."

I guess you can have fun without taste.

There are certain Bach chorales which have achieved canonical status I suppose.. how about Schmucke Dich as an example? Many of the "Great Eighteen" (sic) are good candidates.. not sure what you've already got arranged...

Which Stanford ??

This time it's Beati quorum via, which has really challenged everyone to play smoothly and quietly. The first 35 bars are marked p! A few bars are pp. I just hope everyone really makes the effort tomorrow. It can be quite magical. We have played it before (though with nothing like the same group of instruments and many fewer players, in a different key). I've also used Coelos ascendit hodie, which is antiphonal in 8 parts with lots of dotted quavers and semiquavers.

Ah - I wondered if it was Beati - it's just wonderful. I love the group of three - know them well. Always a bit sorry we don't get to sing Coelos more than once a year.

There already exists some Mendelssohn Organ compositions which are orchestrated.
When my daughter was in Wirral Youth Orchestra they played an Introduction and Fugue in D Minor. The Introduction was the 'Grave' opening of the second organ sonata, though it had been transposed from C Minor to D Minor. The fugue was an orchestration of the D Minor Fugue (from Prelude and Fugue no 3 in D Minor), though as you rightly say, the last movement of the 6th Sonata is also a short fugue in D Minor.

I have no idea of the publisher of the above mentioned orchestrations, but I guess it should be possible to find.

I've been wondering about a movement from one of the Widor symphonies (no, not the famous toccata !).

The penultimate ( fourth) movement from the same symphony is rather gorgeous and has the melody in the pedals at least part of the time. It's quite short, slow and sustained, two pages on the score that I remember playing from. The second movement is also delightful.

It will be somewhat easier when Widor goes out of copyright at the end of the year!

I would have thought that some of Rheinbergers 8th organ Sonata (E Minor) could be orchestrated. Intro - Fugue- Intermezzo- Scherzoso- Passacaglia.

He wrote a lot of music (A bit Mendelssohnian), but not much is heard other than 3 or 4 of the Organ Sonatas.


..................or the famous Reubke Organ Sonata on the 94th Psalm

I don't know whether this has been done before, but what about (for an adult learners' orchestra) Pachelbel's Ciacona in Fmin?

barry

I haven't heard the term "Great Eighteen" before. I have the Riemenschneider collection of chorales, and a more limited Lea Pocket Score collection. I assume my recently acquired DVD will have lots on it but haven't looked for them yet. So far I've nearly always used quite short chorales where I could set out all four voices on one page, sometimes with one or more voices in octaves. It's amazing how much complication Bach can build into even those very short pieces. I have been looking at some of the chorale preludes on the DVD, and have found several that would adapt very nicely for smaller groups but nothing so far that leapt off the page as being suitable for the orchestra.


That's a neat idea. I must have a look at the preludes and fugues some time. I've got the sonatas out of the local university library at the moment so I'll have a look at the Grave. I often use single movements from longer works. It's unusual for us to prepare more than about 15-20 minutes of music in a term and I like to include at least four varied items. We usually do five or music, though this term the Oklahoma medley was quite long and very complicated so there were only four.

It's very likely they are still in Copyright, but at least the idea is available! Thanks for pointing out the possibility.


I'm not aware of having heard any Widor other than "the famous toccata". Thanks Mr.B for saving me the bother of looking up his dates. I know quite a few organists so I'll see if any of them can lend me a copy to look at.



I think I learnt something by Rheinberger during my excursion into organ music while I was at college, but it won't have been anything as grand as a sonata! Are the movements all separate, or are some/all of them linked?
I don't think I've come across Reubke before. What a lot of interesting ideas are coming up! I'm really pleased I asked.



I seem to be in a minority in that I can't stand "Pachelbel's Canon" (it's something I usually switch off if it starts on the radio) but I'm happy to believe that he wrote things I would like. I do need to like something a lot to be willing to put in the hours arranging it and then teach it for a term! On the other hand I'm a bit dubious about something called Ciacona, which I assume is Italian for Chaconne and implies a repeating harmonic pattern. Does it have a musically satisfying bass part?

Many thanks to everyone who has made suggestions so far. I've started a list of things to follow up.

I assume the Forums system collates all the separate replies into one message unless someone else intervenes while I'm writing them. I replied separately this evening to all the various messages rather than doing whatever clever stuff you need to combine them yourself.

I'm not aware of having heard any Widor other than "the famous toccata". Thanks Mr.B for saving me the bother of looking up his dates. I know quite a few organists so I'll see if any of them can lend me a copy to look at.

If it's legal I can scan a page (two in fact) and send them to you in the post so you can see what you think.
btw I'm not keen on the Canon either - I'll join your minority club!

[/quote]
[quote name='fsharpminor' post='485792' date='Mar 29 2007, 03:00 PM']
I would have thought that some of Rheinbergers 8th organ Sonata (E Minor) could be orchestrated. Intro - Fugue- Intermezzo- Scherzoso- Passacaglia.[/quote]


I think I learnt something by Rheinberger during my excursion into organ music while I was at college, but it won't have been anything as grand as a sonata! Are the movements all separate, or are some/all of them linked?


[/quote]


In the 8th sonata of Rheinberger, the Intro, Fugue, and Intermezzo stand separately.
Then the Scherzoso ( a terrific piece) at its end leads into the Passacaglia, which in turn ends by returning to the theme of the initial Introduction.

If I play the Scherzoso as a 'postlude' for a service, I finish it by also adding that last 'Introduction' bit of the Passacaglia so it sounds as though it ends properly.

The Reubke is an FRCO job, I havent a chance of playing it but I have a recording. Its a great piece.

It's not legal until December 31 2007

but surely it could be worked on in private ready for the release date ??
no ?

According to the letter of the law, no. On the last stroke of midnight on December 31 2007....

dacapo, it might be worth pming (that looks odd!) willobie, who has arranged organ pieces for recorder ensembles - very effectively, I might add.

I've done this with my school orchestra, and its Goodmusic. I think their catalogue has some other 'organ' arrangements.

Anybody heard the two contrasting orchestrations of the Passacaglia and Fugue in C minor by Resphegi and Stokowski? They make an interesting comparison.