I want to poach a student and I mustn't. Please tell me I mustn't

I wrote a couple of weeks ago about a local teacher that was very ill. She is making a good recovery.

Meanwhile, I get a phone call from the parent of one of her piano students.

The girl is 7 and has been playing for 4 months. They were concerned about their daughter having such a long break from piano (as her teacher was ill).

They wanted to know if I would take her on.

I said that I was concerned about the ethics of this. It wasn't really fair on the teacher, but I did understand their dilema. I agreed that I would take her just until her teacher was well enough to teach again.

The family have only been in England for 4 months, but assured me that their daughter was picking up the language well.

In steps the new student this evening.

OMG. Not only is she absolutely adorable, but very smart, picks things up at the speed of light, enthusiastic, loves to play (though she would really like to play the violin:D). She is polite, and very eager to learn.

She asks if she can play for me "Would you mind?" She starts with a Grade 1 piece. I'm shocked. She has only been playing 4 months. She plays it close to perfect. Louds, softs, good staccatos when needed. Perfect timing, firm touch, good phrasing. One note wrong.

"How long have you been learning this?" I ask
"Ooohhh, about 5 days"

"5 days...or do you mean 5 weeks?" (though it would have been good for 5 weeks work!)

She laughs. "No, 5 days. I started it on Thursday ready to play for you"

Ummm.

She tells me that she would really love to learn the Mozart piece next, as Mozart is her favourtie composer.

We then listen to a piece from her lesson book and we have a look at the next new piece. Dvorak New World.

She plays it (though her note reading isn't wonderful...but she works it out). "Oh but most of it is missing". It's just a tiny part of the whole symphony" she tells me. She was so pleased to hear what I want I had to say to help her improve things. She hasn't done any scales, so I thought I would show her C major. She manages easy peasy. So then I played G major. "Oh...may I try that?"

Ummm. I want to keep her!

Be nice to her and she might just want to stay!
If it's her choice I wouldn't turn her away!

You must not even THINK about poaching this pupil. The woman's been ill for goodness sake - does she need to lose an adorable pupil into the bargain? Put yourself to one side and think of the other teacher - she's been through a very bad time and she doesn't need to lose pupils as well!!!

Or weren't you being serious???

Violinia

I didn't think she was being seirous

I think Louise is being serious. I am not a teacher but the temptation to keep this dream pupil, if she has the choice, must be so, so tempting.

Well, serious or not, this raises the whole dilemma of what we do when we're ill. A few years ago I had to take an extended break due to illness. Some of my students/parents were very, very understanding. They said they'd wait for my recovery and that was just life.

A few others rang and spoke to my other half saying could I recommend anyone who'd take their child "interim" until I got better. He suggested a few names but, of course, they were full and so, in the end, they had to wait until I was able to resume teaching.

However, there were three parents who rang just two nights after my other half had telephoned them to say I was in hospital, to ask if I was out and when I would be teaching the next week. Being told it would be several weeks before I could teach, they said they'd cancel their contract with me and go elsewhere if I did not return to teaching within two weeks. I lost them as pupils because I couldn't fulfil their needs.

As a parent I understand the need for regular lessons for a child. As a teacher I was mortified that I couldn't honour my commitments to my pupils and I returned to teaching weeks ahead of when I should have done to try to help them (and paid the price personally health-wise for same).

It's a delicate balance - what have others done in this situation?

It is a difficult one, oboist, especially when you are ill. As illnesses are unexpected, you do not exactly have time to arrange cover. My teacher is going away in May for three months but has found cover for us if we want it. I for one am going to wait for her to get back and am not going to go to the cover teacher. I suppose it depends what your pupils are doing and if they have exams looming. I will be doing my grade 6 theory exam in my teacher's absence but today she has asked me to do some work on an exam paper and post it to her for her to mark before my next lesson so at least she can spend more time teaching me in the lesson.

Wow - what a great little girl!

To be honest, if I were very ill for a long period, I'd be grateful for one of my teacher friends to keep the kids on track, as long as the pupils wanted that.

However, I would be very upset to find that the pupil didn't come back to me afterwards... Very upset.

Especially with a student like this one.

What if the pupil decides they prefer Louise? Is that poaching?

As oboist says from a parents perspective, with the best will in the world, they probably just don't want their child to have a major hiatus from lessons so early, especially if she is showing such a gift and an interest.

I think Louise should continue teaching her for the moment, while the other teacher recovers. If at the end of that time the pupil wants to stay, surely that is her perogative. However, you must be careful not plant the idea in the pupils head, as it would be unfair on the original teacher.

Out of interest, what do people do with they have babies? Do you take maternity leave and get someone to fill in? Its all very precarious if anything comes along to upset the apple cart...quite worrying really...

I stepped in and agreed to teach at a wonderful school with a fantastic bunch of kids while my the other teacher left to have a baby. She was undecided as to whether she would come back so I said I'd be flexible and give her until Christmas to decide (it was February when I took the job on).

She kept in touch with the children during the time but come September she told me it was unlikely she'd be coming back. At Christmas she decided not to come back so the job became mine and I'm still there three years on and loving it very much.

We kept in touch and she has now given me another school (again in February, funnily enough) so she can have another baby. I don't know if she'll want to come back but have left it flexible again and told her I'll give her till Christmas to decide. I really do think things have to be as clear as possible with the other teacher, and deadlines have to be given so everybody knows where they are. I appreciate it's different with illness as recovery is less certain than after having a baby, but in the end the students were the original teacher's, so they should have priority over the decision, up to a certain point - perhaps a year maximum? Otherwise it would be too strange for the student to go back to the original teacher, perhaps?

Violinia

I've had a couple of incidences like this. The first one was for a whole year. I got them (two boys) through Grade 2, and then the teacher came back. I more or less got the message "You've done your bit-off you go" from both sets of parents. I wouldn't mind but at no point did any of them say at the beginning that the original teacher was off ill, and that I was only a "stand-in".

The second one was from a family who were straight with me from the start. They had allegiance to the teacher, but didn't want their daughter to miss any lessons. She too has been excellent..very keen to learn and practice. I had my last lesson with her on Saturday. I was quite sad to leave, but mum is learning the flute and has asked me to accompany her when she does her Grade 3. They've also taken my details to pass on to others.

Everything is done for a reason, and filling in for sickness can lead to other contacts. I make sure I know from the start now though whether the student is likely to transfer over to me, although I wouldn't deliberately "poach" a student however good they are.

Yes it would be poaching. Louise should make it clear that she is only a temporary teacher and that the other one is coming back eventually. If the other teacher decides not to come back in the end, the child will be unlikely to kick up a fuss as she will have already bonded to some extent with Louise. And if she does come back, it'll be what the child expected all along. Whether the child prefers Louis really doesn't come into it - the original teacher would still be with the pupil fi she hadn't got ill, and it can't be right to take advantage of another's illness to secure a pupil however lovely! Hasn't the ill teacher suffered enough?

Violinia

I suppose technically that wouldn't be poaching. If I were the original teacher, I'd still be just as upset though

I guess the difference there would be that I'd just be upset about the loss of the pupil, rather than also being angry with the new teacher

I agree ad libitum...it's a tricky one for all concerned really (although the pupil and parent may not realise it!!!!)

Yes, I was joking.

I made it clear that the student must go back to the former teacher.

I must admit, I am having some doubts about this...but I will stick to my word unless the parents decide to find yet another teacher. If they bring the topic up that they really don't want to go back to the former teacher I will have a rethink.

So, even though I was just kidding, I really don't want this girl to go back to the other teacher. The other teacher has a poor reputation. The girls note reading skills were appauling.

She has a very good aural memory, and in my opinion, that means I need give more attention to the note reading side that I would do with a more average child. As she only has to work the notes out once, then seems to be able to play, she just isn't getting the constant practice of having to read those notes over and over again.

I know this other teacher, and I don't think she'll recognise this. She will be delighting in how well the girl plays and concentrate only on her strengths. She also only teaches exam pieces. When this girl passes Grade 1, she'll be presented with the grade 2 book She deserves better than that.

Besides....I'm much nicer

I should also add that this teacher 'poached' a student from me about 6 months ago.

Not that I would let that sway my decision though

difficult one really,
I do agree that it is not fair to 'poach' the student...
I am trying to put myself in the student's shoes (although I am MUCH older ), if I liked my original piano teacher then no matter how nice the 'temporary one' might be I'd forget about the temporary one and stay 'faithful' to my original one...
if I was never that keen on the original piano teacher (relationship somehow undermined) and I liked the temporary one so much then I'd swap giving the original piano teacher a notice of a month or so.
Of course the little girl will probably not think of this...
where does this leave Louise? mmmm not sure
but I reiterate that no matter how tempting it is to try and keep hold of such a 'pleasure to teach student' she should not try and 'poach' her and keep true to her colleagues (what goes round comes round?? )
anyway, enjoy the girl for now and be ready to 'hand back'

I was once asked to take 2 sisters for a while, as their regular teacher (at their school) was examining abroad. Strangely, they were entered for Trinity Initial & grade 1 exams, even though their teacher was away. I'd never done Trinity exams & they appeared worryingly unready (they'd already missed several weeks of lessons by then), but we had some intensive lessons & they got good marks.

We got on very well & they soon started saying they wanted me to be their regular teacher. I felt very awkward about it & didn't think I could "poach" them while their teacher was away, but when their teacher came back, their mum went to see him. She felt bad about it, especially as he had been her brother's teacher when he was at the prep school. However, the teacher was really nice about it & said he quite understood. Luckily, there was a waiting list at the school, so he didn't lose out financially. The girls stayed with me until they went to boarding school (and gave up lessons, unfortunately).

From a student's perspective, I think a lot would depend on how long the teacher was likely to be off for and what the exam situation was. But I don't think I would want to go without lessons for longer than a few weeks, whether there was an exam looming or not.

Some years ago I had to arrange to be off work for a few weeks, but before I told my clients of this, I arranged for (in effect) a competitor to take my place at work. So when I did tell my clients, they were not only understanding but also relieved and grateful that I hadn't just abandoned them. If anything, it actually strengthened the relationship because they saw that I cared enough about them to put a competitor in touch with them rather than let their work suffer.

As a student, I would be similarly grateful if my teacher were to arrange for a "caretaker" teacher during a longish period of absence, and I would assume that I would return to the original teacher eventually. If the original teacher had actually arranged the "caretaker", it would increase the pressure on a pupil to return to the original so if the pupil's going to find a substitute teacher anyway, it might as well be one chosen by the teacher

Why not? This is a private arrangement, why shouldn't the child choose the teacher that she/her parents prefer?

Now it's even more tricky to decide on the "right thing to do"!

If the student wants to go back to her other teacher, you could always send a detailed report of the child's progress, highlighting your thoughts on her sight reading etc...

At least you made it clear that she should go back, but if they did happen to insist that you take her on permanently... It would be a hard one to refuse wouldn't it?

I honestly don't know how I'd react.

If the original teacher had actually arranged the "caretaker", it would increase the pressure on a pupil to return to the original so if the pupil's going to find a substitute teacher anyway, it might as well be one chosen by the teacher
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And I suppose if whoever the 'caretaker' was would probably be a friend or someone you know...and unlikely to nick your students!!!

Louise, it sounds like the pupil may change their mind of their own accord and stay with you, if the other one is a dodgy as she sounds. I can imagine it would be frustrating to see a talented pupil go back to a teacher who won't teach her properly. Difficult position to be in.

Oh dear, it's starting to look easier to justify not being quite so insistent about the girl going back to the original teacher She didn't care enough about the girl to arrange for her to continue lessons with someone else did she - no, she just abandoned her! And doesn't the girl deserve to have her prodigiousness ( ) nurtured instead of stifled Oh dear, get thee behind me satan Rather you than me!



You're only human

Can see the sensitivity but at the end of the day it is really surely the students choice given that is the person paying for the tuition.

Providing you proceed under the understanding that you are standing in only while the other teacher is ill then it is not your decision. What you do if the student wishes to say then needs careful handling. This pupil is clearly talented and really it is more important that she has the best teacher for her needs.

Wow - can I have this student?!

Seriously though, it sounds as though this pupil may have a talent which should be properly nurtured. She sounds like a wonderful potential pupil but also an awesome responsibility. Get her properly on track now and she and her parents will thank you for ever; otherwise, if she simply drifts all you will have are your regrets.

I would take the initiative, clear the ground and contact the sick teacher. Make it clear that that the parents have approached you to cover on a temporary basis so that their daughter can continue with the progress she has already made with her old teacher. Then take time to see how things are progressing. Once you establish a relationshipwith this pupil and her parents you will be better placed to judge the best way for her to continue to develop musically.

Could you also use the contact with the other teacher to offer to help if she needs sickness cover for any of her other pupils? This would obviously have to be done very tactfully and diplomatically but if she has any exam/festival/concert entries looming you may be able to take a worry off someone's back at a time when they need it most AND earn some extra pennies and brownie points.

Not something many of us want to think about or plan for - hope this helps.

I agree with chopsticks. The primary decision is with the student - does she wish to stay with you or to return to the original teacher. If you do not attempt to poach the student you can have a clear conscience if she chooses to remain with you. Why should she be denied a choice of the best teacher for her.

It is a difficult, and thankyou for your feedback. It's given me lots of food for thought.

My main motto is that whatever I do in my 'job' it must be in the child's best interests, but there is obviously a conflict.

To be fair, the teacher did leave the student in the lurch, but it couldn't be helped. She collapsed and the condition was life threatening. Sometimes your health has to come first, and I don't think she was in an condition to arrange temporary lessons for her students.

If I was her, I wonder how I'd feel if I lost my most promising student through my own sickness. Sad, I think. Maybe there would be an element of expectation that this would happen though.

At the end of the day, this is not my student. I am just borrowing her. It's up to the parents who they have teach their child...not me.

My thoughts are that I do nothing to persuade them either way. If they chose to go back to the other teacher, I will send her with my blessings (and my fingers crossed for her!). If they ask me to continue with their daughter, I will explain that the condition was that she only stayed until the former teacher was better....then watch the reaction. If they seem concerned about this, I may well share my feelings (not my lack of confidence in the other teacher), but that I would like to continue with her.

Then play it by ear so to speak.



No I just couldn't take on any more. This is a one off. I have a student who has gone to Australia for 6 weeks and this girl is borrowing his slot. I could squeeze her in elsewhere if I need, but only because she's a joy to teach

I'd happily give up my dinnertime for her

Um, falling ill with a life-threatening illness can hardly be described as 'leaving someone in the lurch'. Of course the teacher's health had to come first - doesn't that go without saying? I think it would be rather mean of you to tell the parents you'd like to continue with the girl - that's almost poaching. Your job is just to continue with the child until the former teacher decides whether she's going to take the pupil back or not. I also think it's a bit unethical of you to criticise the other teacher (especially while she's ill) - all teachers have their strengths and weaknesses. Perhaps this teacher is really good at bringing out the pupil's aural strengths - it's very easy to pick holes in another teacher's teaching when we want their student...

Violinia

Wow Violinia. You misunderstand. Someone else said about her leaving in the lurch. I was trying to explain that it couldn't be helped! She couldn't do anything about that. As for telling the parents that I would like to continue with her...I was trying to explain that if they didn't want to go back to the other teacher, then I would probably take her on, but wait for this to come from them...not implant it in their brains.

As for criticising the other teacher. Yes...not something I usually do...and never ever would I in my offline world.

So I take it that you feel I shouldn't have mentioned my concerns about the note reading on this forum? I feel that it was important.

So basically, what you are saying is that I should only tell you half the problem, and if the student decides they don't want to go back to the other teacher, I should say "well on your bike then, because I'm certainly not prepared to continue with you"?

I get the impression that you have already decided that I want to have this student and will do everything to keep her. Yes...of course, under different circumstances.

I'm saying, I won't do anything to prejudice their decision.

Please don't read things into my message that just isn't there.

BTW, remember that this parent came to me to ask me to teach this child on a permanent basis. It was me who told them that I wouldn't do that...it would only be until the teacher was well again.

Yes to be fair, Louise was just correcting my impression that it was a planned hospitalisation - as mine had been when I'd arranged for a competitor to cover my role (described in earlier post). My last post was just playing devil's advocate, in a not-too-serious way

Incidentally, if I was a teacher who suddenly fell ill and hadn't had the opportunity to arrange cover for my pupils, once I'd recovered sufficiently to think about it, I would firstly be sorry that I'd let them down (even though unavoidable), but if I knew I was going to be unable to teach them for more than just two or three weeks, I would be glad if they had managed to find a temporary teacher so that their playing didn't suffer. And I would feel under more pressure to return to work more quickly than perhaps I should if I knew they were just sitting at home, twiddling their thumbs waiting for me to come back...

If they went to a temporary teacher, I would of course be nervous about whether they would return to me when I was fit, but I would recognise that they might not - and if not, I would use it as an opportunity to review my teaching methods etc to work out why they preferred to stay with someone else rather than come back to me

Sorry, I thought it was you who said about 'leaving in the lurch' - my mistake.

Of course it's fine to mention about the note-reading, but I know a fantastic teacher who has at least one pupil who's never really got to grips with sight-reading. Her other pupils all get Grade 8 with distinction etc and play beautifully (as does this girl). What if it was this ill teacher who'd actually helped the girl develop her aural skills? Sight-reading is only one aspect of music-making and many people would argue that being able to play by ear is equally if not more important in many ways.

I have one pupil who absolutely refuses to sight-read but has an amazing ear; consequently we work in a very different way. I would be horrified if I fell ill and somebody else took him on temporarily and then badmouthed me on an internet forum because this boy couldn't sight-read!

You're absolutely right that only teaching from exam pieces isn't a great idea, but many teachers do this especially if there's pressure from the parents to put pupils through exams as quickly as possible.

I don't know, it just seems a bit unethical to criticise another teacher's teaching, especially when they're ill. In fact I haven't actually seen any posts here before where a teacher has put down another teacher in their neck of the woods for inadequate teaching. It just seems professionally wrong to me. Hairdressers do it all the time I know, but I think we should be bigger than that. If we hear that teachers are cruel to their pupils I think that's another matter altogether, but every teacher has their own methods, strengths and weaknesses. But that's just my view - others may differ.

Or is all this partly about professional competitiveness, because this teacher once poached a pupil from you?

One last word: this girl has been with the other teacher for 4 months.



I truly fail to see how the other teacher can be that inadequate if this child has done so well with her after such a short time.

Sorry but something about it all just doesn't feel right. I'm starting to go off on one now so it's probably best if I retire from this discussion.

Violinia

wow! I wish I was a student my teacher would happily give her dinner time up for me! (dreaming.....)

This can be a difficult one.
I have seen and eperienced students who, despite the teacher's best efforts, actually WON'T learn to read the notes or take any notice of basic theory.
If these children move on to a new teacher it can look a lot like the previous teacher didn't bother with some of the basics.

I think you are taking this all a little too seriously Violinia. My original message was just light hearted.

As for the note reading. I understand your point. Some children just don't get it and they can still do exceptionally well. This girl did get it when I explained (okay...she may well forget it next week...who knows )

The teacher may well have cultivated her exceptional ear too, but perhaps it's time to move on and learn to read the notes before it gets too difficult? There were also other things that cropped up that made me , though I didn't share that. There were also good things that I saw, but the message wasn't really to do with how good or bad the teacher was.

In her defense, she admits to not being a 'proper' piano teacher, which, she tells me is why she only charges £5 per hour.

But anyway..as I said...I don't plan to 'poach' this student, violinia. She's just on loan. It was just a light hearted "I want her...I want her " We have no idea how long for as the family of former teacher never contacted them except when it first happened. The students family did phone her but were told that they didn't know when she would be able to start again.

They didn't know anything about the seriousness of the illness nor did they have any idea that the teacher might return at some time. I know a little about it and told that yes, I imagined the teacher would come pack to teaching and so, I could only have her on a temporary basis.






Agreed. I'm pretty sure that if some of my students moved elsewhere, I'd be pretty embarrased if they mentioned my name

This girl works out everything from Middle C....counting up the lines and spaces. I showed her how to work things out from other landmarks. She was very excited and used that way immediately. I asked her if she had been shown that way, and she said no. I told her that I expected her teacher had a different way of teaching, but that one worked well for me, so to give it a go.

She was happy with that.

Whether she takes it on board, who knows. Time will tell.

This girl sounds like a dream & I can understand you wanting to keep her, but I wouldn't feel right about the other teacher, unless the parents really want her to continue with you, without any kind of suggestion from you.

I do wonder, however, if the girl's note-reading is so appalling, how did she manage to learn the grade 1 piece so perfectly in 5 days, after only 4 month's tuition? If I had a pupil like that coming to me, I would be inclined to think she'd been very well taught. Are the parents able to give a lot of help?

Yes, though neither of them play, the father worked out all the notes and showed them to her. I had a good chat with him at the end of the lesson, really about encouraging her to work out the notes herself, with support from him. He was a lovely guy. We didn't discuss the previous teacher, just explained that I thought it was time for her to get to grips with notation and how well I thought she was getting on. He explained that they listened to a lot of classical music. He also told me that he always asked her to clap the rhythm and count before she started to play. He said "without rhythm...there is nothing".

He seemed to have no idea that she was quite talented.

I agree with the above, the parents are paying for lessons at the end of the day it's their decision who they pay for that service. The original Piano Teacher does not own the pupil. Having said that I don't agree with poaching and most reasonable people wouldn't give into temptation.

Louise stated that the Family hadn't been in the country very long. It is proably reasonable to assume child has not been having lessons for that long. It might end up that the old teacher's illness ends up being for longer than they were teaching her for. In that case if I were the parent and my child was happy and progressing I'd choose to stay. Be careful Louise I understand why you don't want to be seen as poaching but you wouldn't want to push them away either surely?

No of course not! I've mentioned that already I don't dislike this other teacher, and besides, she will probably come back to me eventually as the other teacher only teaches up to Grade 5 anyway.

Though it has been an interesting topic, my original thoughts weren't ever to 'poach' this student. It was just a bit of fun. Yes, I would like her under different circumstances, but that's beside the point. There are a lot of things I would like, but don't plan to steal them off others.