As an adult learner who was discouraged from memorising when very young by my piano teacher ??!! (100 years ago) how do I set about learning pieces by memory?
I seem to have a block now.

I would love not to have the music on the piano and just to let go with my interpretation and feelings.
Is there any advice out there to help me make a start?

I believe it is expected that you play from memory for a DipABRSM? I wouldn't mind even learning to memorize some very easy early grades stuff.

I do quite a lot of memorising tunes (sax, not piano). They tend to be fairly simple tunes, the "head" of jazz standards rather than complex pieces though I memorise the chord progressions too.

Tips I've got are

- The temptation is to memorise by attempting to see the music in your head, so you're reading it from a mental image rather than a physical one. This doesn't work too well for me, it's fine short term maybe for a week or so but it doesn't seem to last in the long term memory.

- The tunes that really stick are the ones I've learnt by ear without ever seeing them written down. At times I go through phases of transcribing jazz solos, if I write them down as I'm going along I never really seem to learn them. If I learn the whole solo by ear without writing it down it does stick. So maybe start by thinking of a simple tune you know really well and try working out the notes and memorising them that way.

- I find it helps to think of intervals and relationships to chords rather than note names, something like "starts on the 5th, chromatically up to 6th, up a minor third to tonic" etc. This also makes transposing into different keys easier which is a good exercise for a would-be jazzer. I'll tend to learn a tune on one of my saxophones then transpose it for the other (without writing it down of course).

- If you are trying to memorise something you already know from the notated form get rid of the music as soon as possible, before you think you know it properly. Then if you get stuck playing it back rather than reaching for the music straightaway try and work it out using your ears, only go back to the music as a last resort.

I'm sure it's much more difficult learning the sort of music you need for DipABRSM by memory than the simple jazz tunes I learn but I think that the key of turning it into an ear to fingers exercise rather than a sight to fingers/ears exercise probably still works.

Thank you so much TSax. You sound as if you are an amazing musician! There is obviously soooooo much more to learn...hope I can keep on improving.

I bought ABRSM Jazz Piano Grade 1 yesterday and the Grade 1 scales are no problem. I am trying to work out what to do on those bars with thick lines on instead of notes. I am assumimg you create what you can on just those notes? Or is it one of the scales to play around with?

I wonder if I can make some progress on my own with this as I don't think my teacher is all that keen on jazz. I may be wrong though...hope hope...It is soooo different and I am really keen to have a go even though I love my classical. Jaques Loussier is my inspiration too!

I play nearly everything from memory and would love to sight read well. :sigh: Here are my tips for memory:
( I am happy to swap with tips for sightreading!! I need to figure out how to widen and stabilize my focal field)

1) finger memory on its own is not stable under any kind of stress so it has to be supplemented by
intellectual memory of the kinds of things TSax says: the key, the start and finish notes,
the basic rhythmic progressions, whatever you understand about the piece according to the level
of theory of harmony you're at.
2) pick out the landmarks in the music. Think of driving a long car journey that you have made many times.
At the start of a journey you probably couldn't describe verbally what to do at every point but when you see the
landmark you suddenly know exactly what to do at that part of the journey. Thus, I learn the music in sections
according to landmarks.
3) if 2 or more sections/couple of bars are similar, be able to say precisely what are the differences and the
order they come in.
4) have a story, a series of mental images, maybe even a scent, associated with the music.
The bigger the network of ideas around a piece of music, the better the chance that you will
remember the notes and dynamics. This is strongly supported by research into memory/cognitive studies.

I'm looking at all these great smilies to the left of the compose message space
and wondering which one to put here...let's see... here's one to cheer us both on

Not wishing to rock the boat here or anything, but I completely disagree with most of what TSax has said!

But that's just me. As Caroline has said, TSax comes across as a very fine musician, and my opinion doesn't alter that in the slightest. I've retained memory of pieces for years by "seeing" them in my head, so clearly that works for me even if it doesn't for TSax.

The point is that different people have different ways of doing this. If you try it TSax's way and it works for you (which it very probably will), great. If it doesn't, then you can start altering some of that advice to suit you.

Either way, I think TSax's post is a very valuable starting point.

Edit: Just read loops's post and that's a great one too.

Further edit: These new smilies rock!

I wish!

Unfortunately I'm much better at writing and theorising about music than I am at actually playing it. I talk a very good solo On a good day I'm getting sort of competent but I'd find it a struggle to get to that very desirable grade 8 on your signature!



I haven't seen the ABRSM jazz books, but I suspect the notes you're talking about in the bars with the thick lines are what is called "guide tones", often 3rds and 7ths of the chords and other key notes that define the chord progression. Using these tones in the right place will help to give a shape to your improvisation that matches the chords but you can and should use other notes that fit the sequence as well. I would really recommend getting a few lessons from a jazz specialist to help you out with it, they could be occasional lessons to supplement what you already have but I'm sure it would help you to progress a lot quicker.




I'm sure it's one of those things which works differently for different people. The strange thing is that I do generally have a very visual memory, almost photographic when I was younger - I could see the pages of revision notes in my head when I was doing exams and would remember things like which quadrant of the notebook it was written in, the colour of pen I was using, whether there were any doodles in the margin - that sort of thing so when I started trying to memorise music that's the way I started. It was a while before I worked out that it wasn't the best way for me, although it can help with say the first bar or two.

As for being a fine musician, see comment above, it's very flattering but if I don't 'fess up I'll have to avoid any possible chance of my playing being heard by any forumite for fear of being accused of false pretences!

Sorry that my post is not actually one which helps...
but this topic made me think...
I actually memorise most of the pieces I learn, not because I set out to...it just happens
I am sitting here trying to think what makes me learn them...do I have have a mental picture of the sheet music? do I memorise the tune? I 'think' it is a bit of both...I memorise both the sheet music and the tune (and I think it may also be some 'muscle/finger memory' but a tiny bit this). Mind you, I am only playing at grade 1 to 2 at the moment, not sure if I will keep this up to Diploma level, but as it seems to be a 'natural' thing for me which I never tried to do it might be that it stays with me?

Just thought I'd let you know that although it's much better if you played from memory , it,s not a MUST. I passed (by the skin of my teeth) the dip ABRSM recital and viva without playing from memory, although I did fail the sight reading part as you know SR is largely a question of memory so there!

I have not taken any exams yet but for some reason I am dreading sight reading, but if you tell me this is largely a question of memory then I should be ok?

On the Piano, memorising comes naturaly if I practice enough.(it depends on the era as well. I'm most likely to memorise baroque/classical sonatinas faster than romantic pieces)

You can really give a better performance if you memorise a piece well.

Bear in mind I only did lower grade exams...but I always found that by exam time, I'd played the piece so much that I had pretty much memorised it, although I never deliberately set out to do so. I'd always have the music with me in the exam, but sometimes it seemed like it was a reminder rather than something to 'read' from.
I'd probably want to feel that confident / familiar with anything I was performing (at an exam or otherwise)

How is sight reading largely a question of memory...please explain...?

According to the famous Geoffrey Tankard, "good sight readers can take in several bars at a glance and remember what they have seen , leaving the rest to a natural keyboard sense" - hence

Er, hrmph ... well I think that depends. I think good memorisers work best when the music is inside them and the send it out to the audience, but for a good reader the music comes in from the page and rebounds back out through the instrument. Different strokes for different folks. I don't think I personally play better or more musically when I'm memorising than when I'm reading.

Having said that, I do also think that even a good reader has to "know" the piece pretty well, so that they're not sight-reading the music every time they play it. I nearly gave a student heart failure recently by suggesting that she play a piece without the music (only in practise, not in performance). She gave it a go, and was fine for the first page, which she already plays well. The bar where she had to stop was exactly the same bar where she starts to have trouble when she's reading.

So having a piece "in memory" to some extent is certainly important. Having it completely in memory and not having to use the printed music is another matter, and one that can cause a bit of alarm for natural readers

At the start of the solo section there will be some notes on the stave without stems - these are the guide tones and ar a starting point for improv (though you don't HAVE to use only them, and indeed don't necessarily have to use them at all. They are a starting point and will also probably give you a clue as to what sort of scale will be appropriate to improvise on). The bars with the thick diagonal lines are there to say "keep improvising in these bars" and the same guide notes will be appropriate untill you come to a bar in which you're given different ones.


SOME can, SOME can't. There simply isn't a blanket-all prescription for everyone.

I love sonataform's description:

"think good memorisers work best when the music is inside them and the send it out to the audience, but for a good reader the music comes in from the page and rebounds back out through the instrument."

I also agree that if you really know a piece you're unlikely to be reading every last note of, for example, a run, or an arpeggio... etc etc even if you're using the music.

very interesting thread.

I suspect that playing from memory or mostly from memory implies that you have played and practised the music enough so that the notes are more like automatic, so you can make music and give expression ....

?

sight-reading is another skill isn't it? must be to do with being able to see far enough ahead and still play what was a few bars back
I get the feeling that rhythm is vital to sight-reading, the notes will take care of themselves! well, sort of

I think we all memorise in different ways, depending on our 'learning style'. Some of us remember better visually, some are better at retaining the information audially (aurally?). Some do a combination of both.

With my jazz band when we were working out a new tune, I always used to listen to the original a few times and then memorise it aurally. In that way I built up a mental library of probably well over 100 tunes, all stored in my head - no problem.

Now, however, we're doing a lot of writing ourselves and at most rehearsals I'm given a sheet with a new tune plus arrangement to learn. Not wanting to use the sheet music on stage, I found I was learning some of it by visualising the notation, but then found a method that worked better for me, using the Edirol - recording rehearsals and then listening to the new tunes over and over again. It works and is a great reason for investing in some home recording equipment!

For some unknown reason, all of us in our band find that once we've performed a piece live, it mysteriously 'embeds itself' and becomes a permament part of your mental repertoire and even if you'd struggled with it in the past it now becomes perfectly easy to remember. I have no idea why this happens, but it's certainly another very good way to memorise a piece - perhaps the best, in my experience.
I can still remember note for note a piece I played at a music festival when I was 12, even though I played it from the sheet music at the time. Weird!

I would imagine it's harder for pianists to memorise than single-line players for the simple fact that you have so much more detail to remember, but because I'm a hopeless sightreader on piano and once wanted to learn a few nice piano pieces I once made myself memorise the whole of Debussy's 'Clair de Lune', studying about 4-8 bars a day and learning them by heart as I went along.

I do think that if we can hear any tune in our head then we must have the ability to memorise. If what we're trying to memorise doesn't really resemble a tune, then perhaps the best way to proceed is to do it bar by bar, using whatever techniques work best for us - using intervals (as described by Tsax), audially or visually or a combination of all three.

I also think you can play with more expression once a piece is fully committed to memory, though I know others will disagree....

I do believe that the ability to memorise is a very important musical skill to develop; when you think back, the notation of music is a relatively recent development in the history of worldwide music-making. I went to a Greek violin workshop a while back which was very interesting and illuminating. This old Greek man taught a whole group of us a long complex piece without any notation at all, using the traditional method of taking it phrase by phrase from the beginning using listening followed by repetition and constant recapitulation - the method worked because we virtually all managed to learn the whole piece by the end of the session, even those of us who'd never memorised anything before.

Violinia

Fascinating thread...I've been thinking about how I memorise music and frankly haven't a clue, although it's definitley auditory. I never visualise the written music.
Generally I listen to or sing the piece through a couple of times and there it is. It takes a shape in my brain and sticks there. Usually the words take a bit longer to come (especially if it's in a foreign language), but basically once I can feel the shape of it I'm almost there (conversely I have to spend ages learning spoken words, so the music clearly acts as a mnemonic).
I realise I'm very lucky to be able do this with what seems like no effort (and more or less permanently, once it's in). The down side is that I'm an absolutely lousy sight-reader - never get enough practice, as once I've gone through it once or twice it's no longer sight-reading...

I have only ever memorised one piece in front of an audience, it's Tambourin, by Gossec. Have practised it loads though.

Was thinking of memorising a piece for a music festival, too cowardly though.

I don't usually remember the sheet of mansucript - I remember the music. As a result, when I have a piece in memory I have great problems working from the sheet again - it's as though I'm sight reading a new piece sometimes.

Being honest, for the last few years most of my music has been guitar and singing. To my shame, I don't read guitar music at all well: I tend to play it on piano and then pick it out note-by-painful note on the guitar. Either that or play by ear. Performing at folk clubs you're sort of expected to have it off pat - maybe a few cribs for the lyrics but no more.

Incidentally, flute fanatic: how/why do you memorize a piece in front of an audience?? Watching and listening to someone memorising sounds like strange entertainment!!

In fact, not having the music infront of you helps you to put more feeling and expression into your playing. You can look behond the notes and really imagine; maybe think up a story as you play.

Instead of someone watching you play a bit of music with a great big stand in the way, memorising allows the player to be seen and the soloist can communicate really well with an audience.

When i'm playing an up-tempo piece, I find it more impressive to play without the music.
It's relatively easy to do on the lower grade stuff (i.e. tambourin - Gossec).
Just play the piece lots of times and eventually your fingers get used to where they go.

I've never tried to 'remember the notes', it's just never worked like that for me, it's always been down to muscle memory. If you learn to play a piece properly, the muscles in the hands will develop a memory for the actions.

I find that I can memorise classical period sonatas (piano) reasonably quickly. 20th century pieces I have great trouble with. I would love to memorise a Shostakovich Prelude and Fugue !
Baroque, Bach Prleudes and Fugues are a lot harder than those short Scarlatti Sonatas.
Romantic period music isnt too bad if relatively short (eg Chopin Waltzes/Mazurkas or Mendelssohns Songs without Words).
I guess as I am not a professional musician and never play in public, I dont have the incentive to memorise stuff, though I have a few things in my repertoire

I find learning arpeggiated pieces the easiest regardless of the era.

I have no idea how I learn a piece but I do know that I have most of the pieces in my memory that I learnt as a child whereas the pieces I learnt since restarting the guitar as a 35 year old are not quite as note perfect - the effects of ageing I guess!

I can't memorise, not reliably.

I play better having the music in front of me, because as well as the dots, of which I only need a few as anchors (but without which I'm lost!), my own annotations help remind me of what I was doing where, and why. Sure, I could play the odd short section without such support, but I play less musically when stressing about what the notes are, and more musically when able to read as I go. Interestingly, most of the professional musicians I see performing in concerts play from the music too, so I guess I needn't feel too inadequate for preferring to read - I'm not a folk or jazz musician, after all.

I find that because I'm expected to memorise songs, I tend to memorise works for my other instruments too. Not something I do deliberately, but just that for me, part of the learning process before a piece is "finished" for performance is that it is in my memory.

Having said that, a number of people on this forum were present when my memory failed me at Teddington, and I had to bluff my way to the end of my recorder performance. The result of this was that I took music into an exam for the first time ever, as I didn't feel confident that I'd remember it. And, curiously enough, this resulted in the best marks I've ever had in an exam - including a 30 in the piece that caused me the initial panic.

I've played my Gd3 pieces sooo much that I couldn't possibly not memorise them. Yet I still make mistakes Having the music in front of me just acts as an added complication now, and probably of no help should I lose the plot halfway through. I have recently tried writing out the music on blank sheet music paper from memory, which has given me some insights to the pieces and reinforced my other memory methods, but it's not exactly fun