I found this Youtube video of Yehudi Menuhin teaching violin to beginners. It is one several recordings of his lessons focussing on different aspects of technique. I found it interesting as I would like to be able to play without a shoulder rest. I thought it might be helpful to anyone who is just starting to learn violin (or viola).

Menuhin may have been playing without a shoulder rest back then (a long time ago judging by how young he looks) but there's a shoulder rest called 'the Menuhin' which he must have had some part in the development of...

People can get very entrenched in positions regarding shoulder rests. Sheila Nelson positively loathes them and berates people who use them! Other people think they neatly solve the problem of the gap between the shoulder and the violin. Perhaps violinists could more easily do without them when clothes were thicker and more padded than they are now.

It's definitely true that shoulder rests and pads damp down the natural tone of the violin, which is a shame. Perhaps a shoulder rest damps it down even more than a pad because of the two clamps on either side of the fiddle.

The whole area is a minefield and people are best left to work out which is best for them re comfort versus tone. And if you like your shoulder rest, avoid Sheila Nelson at all costs!

Violinia

I used to have a menuhin shoulder rest and didnt like it at all, I much prefer having the shaped shoulder rest that fits the natural shap of the shoulder. I dont know what the make is of the one I have now.

I don't think it is a simple as that. My shoulder rest only touches the violin at the edges which don't contribute to the sound anyway. A pad or a jacket lapel touching the back is more likely to dampen it.

In any case being uncomfortable with the violin will have a more detrimental effect on the sound than having a shoulder rest or not. People's anatomies are so different that I don't think that you can lay down hard and fast rules.

Goodness, I don't think I'd much like being in Menuhin's class. Of course he said many useful things but it was all lecture. Had I been younger I'm sure it would have turned me off...

*Runs and hides from a shower of stones*

I experimented when I first got my viola (as I didn't have a shoulder rest for it at the time) and the sound was definitely most resonant when I had no shoulder rest and took the chin rest off.

However - I don't think it makes that much difference - after all, there are plenty of really great musicians who play with shoulder rests. (I seem to recall that Maxim Vengerov was using a shoulder rest in that South Bank Show some time ago - didn't seem to slow him down much!)

I've just tried out the sans shoulder rest method as instructed in the video and I feel like I've got a broken collar bone and dislocated jaw. It seriously hurts and the support afforded was very unstable. I'm the wrong shape obviously.

Unless this way is more comfortable I can't see any reason not to use a rest. Seriously, the degree of resonance lost must be miniscule and this persuit for the optimum resonance seems to me to be a diversion away from the real art and enjoyment of music making. Unless you are a concert violinist or soloist it may even be a 'bad workman blaming his tools syndrom'. I don't mean that unkindly I just mean that even if you manage to optimised the resonance you still have to play well. I think this trend for playing next to the skin etc is a gimmick - I mean the most resonating place to play is probably in your birthday suit in the bathroom Enough said.

Shoulder rests pros and cons are hot debate...in the end go with what works for you, everyone's anatomy is different and damage can be done if you have the wrong set-up. (Some people seem to have no neck, so they don't have a gap to fill)

In the days of Baroque (with no chin or shoulder rests) the violin was held lower down and rested on the body, supported by the left hand, with chin off. This made it virtually impossible to shift down and a lot of the music was for first position mainly. For todays music you have to be abke to support the violin without the left hand (as Menuhin was demonstrating).

ASM has no shoulder rest but an incredibly high chin rest so the gap between shoulder and chin is filled.

Some male violinists play with no shoulder rest but they have sponge inside their jacket!!




Ha! you can't post that and not expect me to come back with a little snippet

Maxim uses a Kun (and is always fiddling with it in the tuttis). He says he once went to play for Stern who was insistent that students play without the shoulder rest (although he was one of those guys with a sponge in his jacket and no neck!), he wrenched Maxim's shoulder rest off his violin and flung it across the room in disgust!

However when Maxim played his Baroque fiddle (RIP) he had no shoulder or chin rest.

Cheats! Bet they love people thinking they play without anything!




Sounds like Sheila Nelson (bless her)

This was really interesting! I play with no shoulder rest and I feel (even if it's not true to the people standing a few feet away) that the fiddle is more able to resonate because it isn't held in a vice like grip by anything (I don't grip it with my chin either). I can shift up and down with no trouble (although it took some getting used to and I have found that I make minute adjustments to the way I hold the fiddle when I'm going up or coming down).

The way I hold it seems very similar to the video (I wish!), except that I have contact between the first finger lower knuckle and the neck of the violin most of the time (except when shifting or playing on the G string).

I reckon it's a case of do whatever you prefer, but irrespective of your anatomy you should be able to play with or without shoulder rest - violinists did for many years and many continue to do so (in my case it's just not practical to fiddle around with a shoulder rest in a crowded pub whilst surrounded by fifteen other musicians in a space only big enough for five of us!). If you feel it's more comfortable, then use one I reckon, if it doesn't bother you, then don't.

Great videos!

I have a long slender neck. Unless there is a viola that's 3-3/4" in height, I will not be able to clamp down the instrument without lifting my shoulder or twisting my neck in downward angle just to keep it from falling without the help of something between my collar bone & the instrument. I didn't think of raising the chin rest tho...

My teacher has "short big fat neck" (his exact words, I am not lying!!) so he doesn't use shoulder rest during our lessons, but do use one if playing more than 3-4 hours. First thing my teacher said to me after he look at my holding position was that I may need a much higher shoulder rest than the Kun one I got or any he has in his possession. I have now a Tido one which its feet can extend quiet long. My son's neck is not quiet as long (he's his daddy's boy!) and he prefer playing/ practicing without a shoulder rest, except right now he is using BonMusica one (with a hook over the shoulder type) so we can get him to hold that violin up on his shoulder, but the setting is on the lowest of low possible. So, agree with all those who use a shoulder rest -- everybody is built differently, you will have to try different ones to find what fits you the best, or without one, no matter what all the Gurus are doing because ultimately it's YOUR body that's hurting, not theirs.



as far as Mr. Menuhin's lessons go... I am very sorry but I never made past the clear plastic violin part... but I also glaze-eyed during my Physics professor's 1st lecture so my opinion may not be too, umm, ... what was the topic again ?

This is really interesting...
I heard many many people saying that it doesn't matter what 'anatomy' you have, you can play with or without a shoulder rest and it does make sense to me that this is indeed so...
I would LOVE to play comfortably without a shoulder rest but my teacher is a shoulder rest user and I don't know if he would be much help, I'll ask him. If he's not confident in teaching me a good posture without shoulder rest can I do this myself??? I am worried to do it myself in case I get it wrong!
Jo
ps I know you don't get used to play without a shoulder rest for a while, it's not something that comes the first time you try, I read somewhere that you have to practice it no more than 5 minutes at a time at first (with a break of I don't remember how many minutes) then do another 5 minutes and so on, to get your body used to it.

Give it a go Jojo, if that's what you want. Try it for a few minutes at a time at first and only doing pieces that you know really well. After a while, play without it at your lesson and ask your teacher to keep an eye on your posture and violin hold (irrespective of whether he uses a shoulder rest or not he will be able to see if your posture is correct) and, if you really want to play without one, just persevere, it will end up feeling natural (my violin feels really high and oddly rigid if I play with a shoulder rest now).

That said, you need to think what your reason for wanting to ditch your shoulder rest is - if it feels comfortable and you're progressing well with it on, there doesn't seem to be much reason to change. I only took mine off because of practicalities and because I felt there was a real resonance difference, but mostly it was because I couldn't mess around with it in sessions.

Good luck, whatever you decide to do!

Allan

Thanks Allan,
I am 'attracted' to learn how to play without shoulder rest as it seems to me that once you are used to it you are able to have a lot more 'flexibility' in your violin playing. Like you said with a shoulder rest, although 'comfortable' (and at present am progressing really well on technique etc), it feels just like a 'rigid extension' to my body (although I do keep my body and shoulders relaxed and get no pains). Sometimes I get 'carried away' with some pieces I like and know well and more or less 'dance' while I am playing the violin and it 'does not feel right' that the violin remains 'rigid' while I am making all these moves! Not sure if you know what I mean, I guess what I mean is: I feel like I want to mess around just like you said you do in your sessions LOL I want to feel like the violin is 'part of me' (again am I making any sense here?)
Is this a good reason to try and switch to be 'shoulder rest-less' HAHAHA as like I have said I have NO problems playing with a shoulder rest and progressing well?

I think it's up to you, to be honest. I do feel that the violin is more connected to me now that I play without the rest - I can feel the vibrations on my shoulder and I feel like I'm closer to the action. I can also be less rigid about where the violin is if there isn't much space.

I'd say give it a go, but be prepared to feel like a fish out of water to begin with because you'll suddenly feel like all the stuff you can do with your shoulder rest on is totally impossible without it. That goes away, of course, but it takes time.

Good luck !

Allan

I once played the whole first half of a concert with no shoulder rest. I just forgot to put it on and left it behind in my case. Had to wait until the interval to leave the stage and retrieve it. Yup fish out of water fairly well describes it.


Could've been worse though, I could've forgotten my bow

But we've just heard you manage quite nicely without it..

W

But not in the Mendelssohn concerto

(PS 2nd violin part)