After trying out various flutes in the shop this week I would be interested what people think about having a flute with open or closed holes, what difference does it really make?

The shop didn't have the Yamaha 311, but we agreed it would give no advantage over my 211 except the headjoint. In the end I tried the Trevor James Cantabile, Altus open-hole and Altus closed-hole. After trying Altus I decided to save up for that instead of getting the Cantabile, though I didn't particularly like the feel of it anyway.

The open-hole flute actually felt worse than any other. Maybe I am just not used to open holes but the closed-hole both felt and sounded many times better. Is there really any advantage of open holes? All I can think of is it lets you 'slide' off notes; how many pieces care about this? Some mega high notes need half holes. Again, how often do you need above top C? There might be less satisfactory ways on closed-hole as well. I'm not likely to ever go beyond first diploma level on flute anyway.

I'm planning to do grade 8 on the 211 then think about upgrading.

The only advantages to open holes I find is that it forces you to place the ends of the fingers on the keys, automatically curving your fingers for a good hand placement. I also play quite a bit of contemporary music which requires the open holes for multiphonics, glissandi and other extended techniques. I dont think any of the mega high notes require open holes, or at least the fingerings up to top top F which I use dont use any!

If the closed hole flute sounded and felt much better go for it. I doubt there is any sound difference. The open hole flute might have been sounding slightly weak as you are note used to the holes and there might not have been a complete seal.

Let us know which flute you get in the end!

Open hole takes some getting used to - I'm not surprised it feels strange if you're used to closed hole (personally, I now find closed hole feels really odd and "wrong"). The feel of an open hole flute is naturally likely to be totally alien to you. (Even two open hole flutes can feel very different - first time I played Nicki's open hole flute it felt really odd to me - difference between Yamaha and Pearl keys).

If you're spending time saving up then it's not a decision you have to make straight away, yesno? You might have more opportunity to familiarise yourself with open hole flutes in the meantime. You don't have to take all the plugs out straight away, either.

Some people say it makes a difference to the sound - I am yet to be convinced either way. The two things I can imagine might've made some difference when you were playing is: different headjoints (which will make a difference anyway) and/or not covering the holes totally (very easy to do especially if you're new to open holes, and can make it sound bad or make some notes hard to sound.

Pluses: alternate fingerings, especially in the top register (and I don't just mean "to get weird sounds", but also the possibility of using different fingerings if tuning was an issue on a particular note). Forces you to have good hand position (not that hard to get used to unless you have very small hands) or you won't cover the holes properly. The possibility of doing note bends etc (no, it won't stop you from playing most music, but if you want to use note bends in jazz, or play some modern stuff, then you need the open holes). Also the rise of the keys is supposed to be lower I believe (?) because the keys are slightly better vented which may make the mechanism feel lighter - I don't know if that is true of all open hole flutes though - it may be something to do with the keys being less bulky too? I do find some closed hole flutes feel more clunky to me now.

As far as I am aware the altissimo register on the flute is more about having excellent support and embouchure, you don't need open holes or a B foot - as far as I understand it...

Minus points: you can't get away with dodgy finger position, and if you have small hands they're a no no.

I've had closed hole flutes up to grade 7 and then just before I took my gr.8 I bought a miyazawa open hole flute. I noticed the sound was so much better, a richer tone and intonation was better too. My original flute was the Yamaha 614 and my present one the miyazawa BR 402 RE (a much better flute - alot of money though). It takes time to get used to an open hole flute, I currently have plastic stoppers in mine and am taking them out gradually. The feel of the flute is much better with these stoppers. Without them, it's hard if you've been on a closed hole flute for a while.

I know quite a few people that reach the higher grades and decide to buy an open hole flute; certain pieces of music require you to use an open hole flute, or at least it makes life easier i.e. in some of Clarke's music.
It's possible to do really well with say the yfl 211 flute; after all it is the player behind the instrument that really makes the difference.

There are professional flute players who still play on closed hole flutes, so it's not as if you have to get one to be a good player.

It really is up to you whether you want open or closed hole.

That's the flute not the holes though, surely?


Amen!!

Yeah, it probably is the flute, but I have heard that open holes are suppose to sound better. (Can't really believe this though).

I think if you're noticing the difference with the plugs still in, it's the flute!!!

Yeah. Without the plugs it would probably sound airy as my hand/finger positions aren't great.

You'll get there, I never ever thought I would manage my first open hole flute, drove me up the pole. Now closed hole flutes feel so weird!

Hopefully I can master playing the flute without the plugs by Dec. when I am taking my diploma.

I'm sure they'll be long gone by then.

I took my plugs out all at once, Except the G key which took a couple of weeks longer than the rest. I find the top notes are alot easier to play, but i dont know if thats because of the B foot or the open holes. Closed holes feel really weird now I agree, and you can be very lazy with them. With open holes, you have the option of having closed holes aswell so why not have a little variety?!

The holes on both my pearls I feel are a little bit smaller than on my other Deford flute. Then, the deford is in line aswell so that might make more difference.

It took me about 3 weeks, taking a plug out at a time. I think the E key one stayed in the longest...bad hand posture!!
And yes, the holes do vary between flutes! I can hardly tell the holes are there on my teachers Brannen flute, but my Powell has a very obvious ring around the key, which I like as I can feel whether my fingers are in the right place or not.

And about the closed hole flutes feeling weird for open hole players.....I always find im really lazy and play with my fingers over the keys! - Not good....will stick to the open holes.

I misread that as 3 years

The one thing with open hole flutes is that they are good for making you have good hand postions.

Im actually going to change my mind now........just got my flute out.
Im now going to say it makes you improve your finger positions IF you choose to. I just got my flute out and played it fine using the middles of my fingers , fingers flat as a pancake.....played fine......

^ true, actually, though it is more difficult, I think it probably depends on your fingers... Easier to play with good hand position (for most people) than with rubbish hand position I think. Definitely, for me, I can play crappily on an open hole flute but more likely not to quite cover a hole somewhere & end up with a pants note..

I've had an Altus 1407R in-line open-hole flute since they were new to this country ( some 20 years ago!) and I was a student. Still love it, although I do now use a Michael Allen headjoint. I have small hands but didn't find the change difficult, and yes, it does force a good hand position. Bought the flute on a Friday without plugs, left my old Miyazawa closed hole flute in London to be sold, practiced for about 8 hours on the Saturday and had a concert on the Sunday. I have played quite a bit of contemporary music that has needed the open-holes, but wouldn't say they were absolutely necessary, though I do find intonation in the upper register easier. With students I advise them to go on the sound of the instrument and if they do opt for open-holes to do without plugs. In the long run they get used to it much quicker than thaking one out at a time.

The real test for playing open hole flutes is when you play low C or low B. Without all the hole sealed the note wont sound as strongly as it should. Whilst I was able to play fine with awful hand position, i cant get low C out!

Stickiest finger tends to be right-hand ring finger.

What do you mean

I find the G finger difficult, have to stretch and really lift hand up.

Hmm well my RH 3rd finger (if it is thumb, 1, 2, 3, 4) was the longest that needed the plug in for

Well, as usual, I'll stick my oar in.

I have found no disadvantages playing a closed hole flute. I might, with some contortion, manage open holes, but long-term I am risking damage by playing one, as my hand does not naturally fall into the right shape to cover open holes.

At least one of the main London flute shops advises against plugging because it affects intonation. Not everyone agrees with this.

It is still relatively common to find advanced players in the UK playing with closed holes.

Yeh me too! I think its mostly due to the hand position once the RH 12 are covered, if the hand isnt in the right position then the RH3 cannot place itself properly on the hole.

Andante - can you swing note bends? That's the only real "disadvantage" I can think of (apart from missing out on fine tuning top notes - is that cheating anyway? ) and it's pretty minor...?

Definitely not worth risking damage....

On an open-hole flute I only need a plug for the RH 2nd finger. It seems to slip off-centre when I apply my little finger for a C or a low B.

Note bends? Yes - I can bend up or down around a semitone or so - enough for Walk Like This! anyway.

Cool

Well actually I noticed on my closed hole flute that my rh ring finger was being very lazy - but I think this is natural because it has further to stretch - like the lh ring finger on the g key!

I have closed holes because I have small hands, however I'd like to try an open holed flute in the future

[quote name='magicflute' date='Apr 15 2007, 12:42 PM' post='494836'] [quote name='sags_3' post='494503' date='Apr 14 2007, 06:40 PM']

Well actually I noticed on my closed hole flute that my rh ring finger was being very lazy - but I think this is natural because it has further to stretch - like the lh ring finger on the g key!

I have closed holes because I have small hands, however I'd like to try an open holed flute in the future [/quote]


Can you check that your RH little finger is curved over the Eb key.... I usually play with a straight little finger (yes....bad!) and theres this bar in the Faure Fantasie which I just couldnt play as the little finger needed to be curved to allow the RH3 to work independantly- just something about the anatomy of our hands. I am now trying to fix it.......sooo hard!

Whenever it came to me replacing my Yamaha closed hole flute about a year after passing grade 8, I decided that my next flute would definitely be open hole. I remember trying my teachers once when my own flute was broke and it felt awful to begin with but I knew that it would help improve my finger positions which were obviously awful. When I received my Miyazawa it didn't come with plugs and so I decided just to learn with no plugs in from the start which worked fine for me. Within a few weeks I could play just like I could on a closed hole flute. The only finger i've ever had problems with is my D finger when playing low C and B but this is mainly due to my hand position which i've almost fixed!

It may feel bad to begin with but you do get used to open holes quite quickly and you can always use the plugs if you need. I also agree with Sarah that the action feels much lighter and more responsive, not just on my flute but all open hole flutes that i've tried.

I don't remember how long I took and how I did it in the first instance. I'm pretty sure the G and the F# keys were the most difficult.

I know that on returning to the flute properly, I found the open holes hard at first but didn't use the plugs except for the F# key, just stuck with it. The F# key took time getting used to again though.

I have just bought a new flute with open holes (Miyazawa PA-202 ) and have noticed that it really makes me hold my hands in the right places - didn´t realise how sloppy I had become. The owner of the flute shop put plugs in it for my first test play - so that I could concentrate on the sound of the flute rather than having to think about technique which seems like a good idea if you are testing instruments. He then took them out so that I could decide if I thought I would be able to get on with the open holes.

That's really sensible

Walk Like This is a fantastic piece

I play an open hole flute in a band, and sometimes, can't hear myself playing if everyone around me is belting out a really loud bit. So I like to be able to feel the vibration of the air coming through the open holes, to reassure myself that I'm actually getting the right note out - not sure if this really works but psychologically it seems to do the trick

Also the tone does seem to alter depending on how far away from the open holes my unused fingers are, but again maybe I am just imagining it?

I did not really use the plugs at all when I first got it, even when I tried it in the shop they were out, and I picked it up to play it expecting it to be dreadful as I hadn't had a lesson for 16 years, so was quite pleasantly surprised that I had no problems .

However I used to get a lot of horrendous paper cuts on the ends of my fingers, so occasionally have used a plug for a concert rather than open up a particularly bad cut e.g. if playing made it sore, or if it was bleeding a bit - therefore not any one specific finger, but probably my RH first finger mostly as this one was more prone to cuts.

Have lost a couple of the plugs over the last year - one, shoved in a pocket at the end of a concert, got lost in the washing machine, the other, I was fiddling with it during 24 bars' rest (lifting it up with my nail and pushing it down again in time to the music ), and it suddenly pinged out and rolled through a heater grating in the floor

Hi,

One question I have had for a while now..

One of the main benefits of having an Openholed flute is supposed to be the ability to bend notes easier, or perform glissandos. However, if only *some* of the keys are open then how useful is this over a whole scale ?

ie how do you gliss between low C/C# and low D/Eb ? or between G/G# and A ? or B/C2 ?


Thanks
Richard

Open hole for me

I like the way my flute vibrates! Didn't know it was to do with the open holes though, I thought it was just that I'm better/get more sound out now!!

I love it also

I know the whole flute will vibrate, but specifically I can feel the air coming out though the open holes that are not covered, hitting the pads on the end of my finger tips (so this would not work for bottom or middle D ha ha) and on more than one occasion, I've thought to myself, "I'm playing the wrong note because the vibrations feel wrong" - even though I couldn't hear myself. Not sure whether it's imaginary though!!

I don't know if I'd noticed that - probably will now though LOL

Hmm yeh i feel the vibrations too, but the vibrations vary on the actual air going though the flute, so any change in vibrato or air speed for different tonal colour will change the vibrations felt. I find i get a really nice vibration for low hollow notes....tingly!

open holed flutes aren't a no even if you do ahve small hands!!!

My hands are tiny, and i mean REALLY REALLY SMALL! but i never needed plugs in my flute!!!


Other than that, i agree with the others. I prefered the tone of the open holes so i got them, but when i said this to the shop assistant, he said that it was the head that really made the difference.. so i dunno..

The headjoint is responsible for the majority of the sound, say 90% or more. The body does make a difference though. I dont think open holes actually make much difference to the sound, it may be one of those things where you consider open holes to be one of those advanced features, so you expect it to have a better sound and therefore do think it has a better sound.

Yes, open holes are often found on more advanced flutes, which generally have a higher silver content/better headjoint etc which make the sound better.

Definately not worth the risk if you have any doubts about physically coping with open holes.I had to give up baroque flute playing as a student after repeated problems with the wider bore and steroid injections into my left hand as a result. Not fun. Luckily I hadn't continued long enough to stop regular flute playing permanently.

i upgraded to an open hole after my gr. 5 and i love the sound!!!!
however, go with whatever you feel is better.