Hi - Im putting a pupil in for Grade 2 violin this term who is playing moonsprites. I am not a violinist but live in an isolated location so if the child did not learn violin with me they would not learn at all. PLEASE could someone explain to me what sort of bowing is need in this piece (especially the repeated notes near the beginning ) to make it sound quite light..
Thanks

Hi there

I'm playing Moon Sprites in June for my Grade Two. I'm an adult learner and a former musician and I'm having great fun with it - it's a lovely wee tune.

For those repeated notes I use a single bow in each direction; the first of the three 'E's is about a quarter bow, the second longer and the third longer still. This is mostly to sound the crescendo but also varies the notes so they don't sound repetitive. Then, the three 'F's are the opposite; bowing getting shorter to sound the diminuendo. This also makes them sound quite light. I also keep the three notes starting with the high 'B' quite light by making them a fraction shorter than written, but just a fraction to separate them.

The 'forte' on the low 'D' I really bring out loud and deep because, again, it's a good contrast to the lighter notes and sounds very 'violiny' (well it does and I am a beginner) but I love the sound of the lower end of the instrument compared to the higher in this piece

Then on the last line I keep the first two bars very light with an emphasis on the two 'E's by playing the first with my fourth finger and the second on the open string - this is a lovely effect and I use as much bow as I can to emphasise it.

Then I do use pizz at the end to round the whole piece off on a very light tone.

Hope this is of some help - I'm only a beginner so might be wrong - I'd love to hear what anyone else thinks.

Gracious: Lottie, I wish I'd been that conscientious as a grade 2 violinist

*Seconds*

I just kinda bashed my way through it!!

I know someone else who's bashing their way through it lol!

my daughter is playing this for her grade 2. what speed are people playing this at? I believe that it is played much slower in the CD than what it is supposed to be played at.

On my CD (the ABRSM one) it is played so fast it sounds silly!!!! I'm going to play it much slower than the recording.

Without wanting to sound a miserable old boot, stifle enthusiasm, or show a lack of appreciation for the situation in hand, is this case really a good enough reason for a non-violinist to teach the violin?

What sort of left hand technique is this child developing? what about the correct development of their bow arm? and how will you tackle things like shifitng (required at grade 3) and (if the child continues further) vibrato? How do you know if the childs development is correct. At grade 1 and 2, imperfect technique will not be so visible or audible and it is possible to 'get away with it' too, but heading for grade 3 onwards, things start to ramp up.

Taking online advice via this forum will not teach you the skills you really need to know. Playing a bowed string instrument is extremely physical and you will have to know physically how to perform these tasks for yourself. Verbal explanations without practical demonstration will not be enough when it comes to staccato, ricochet, martele, sautille bowing etc., all of which need an introduction sooner rather than later.

If you intend to continue teaching this child, then it would be more than advisable (essential) for you to take a crash course in violin playing yourself, so that you at least know what it feels like to play the instrument and you understand fully the damage that one can do through incorrect technique. A bad technique will not only debilitate a learners progress, to the point where progress stops altogether, but it can physically injure the player as well.

I'd like to second AmandaL on this. It's seems a harsh judgement on your generosity but it does seem misguided. A violin teacher is constantly looking at and correcting the all important posture and making sure no negative tensions are developing - all necessary to facilitate smooth movement on the fingerboard and good bowing technique. If you are struggling with Grade 11 then you are probably doing a lot more harm than good. Sorry

I see you gave up piano at age 8 yet also teach piano.....? Please explain! As Amanda says, it's highly inadvisable to teach any instrument unless you can play it to a high standard yourself, because you're highly likely to pass on bad habits which can be very difficult to remove later on. I'm a self-taught pianist to a moderate standard - can play things like Bach preludes, easy Chopin, Debussy's Clair de Lune, Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata etc reasonably well, and am always being asked to teach piano but always say an emphatic 'no' because I'm not at a high enough standard myself and haven't been taught properly in any case as I only had lessons for a short while (big regret).

I know you live in an isolated place, but unless you can play violin and piano to a high standard yourself (self-taught can be OK but only if a professional violinist/pianist has looked at your playing and OK'd it), my personal view is that you shouldn't really be teaching them. Sorry etc but it's such a dangerous thing to do.

I see you're an experienced clarinettist - why not just teach that?

Violinia




You sound like a distinction-kinda-girl!

[quote name='lottie' post='505564' date='May 1 2007, 02:39 AM']
Hi there

I'm playing Moon Sprites in June for my Grade Two. I'm an adult learner and a former musician and I'm having great fun with it - it's a lovely wee tune.

For those repeated notes I use a single bow in each direction; the first of the three 'E's is about a quarter bow, the second longer and the third longer still. This is mostly to sound the crescendo but also varies the notes so they don't sound repetitive. Then, the three 'F's are the opposite; bowing getting shorter to sound the diminuendo. This also makes them sound quite light. I also keep the three notes starting with the high 'B' quite light by making them a fraction shorter than written, but just a fraction to separate them.

The 'forte' on the low 'D' I really bring out loud and deep because, again, it's a good contrast to the lighter notes and sounds very 'violiny' (well it does and I am a beginner) but I love the sound of the lower end of the instrument compared to the higher in this piece

Then on the last line I keep the first two bars very light with an emphasis on the two 'E's by playing the first with my fourth finger and the second on the open string - this is a lovely effect and I use as much bow as I can to emphasise it.

Then I do use pizz at the end to round the whole piece off on a very light tone.

Hope this is of some help - I'm only a beginner so might be wrong - I'd love to hear what anyone else thinks.
[/quote]

You sound like a distinction-kinda-girl!
[/quote]




Unfortunately, I'm 99% guaranteed to go to pieces with nerves. It's why I had to give up music in the first place 20 years ago and it's SO frustrating because I KNOW how I want to sound....

Actually I think it is....Jacky says she lives in an isolated location - possibly her definition of isolated is an understatement compared with what people from more southern areas might define as isolated. "Isolated" quite likely means several hours drive to the beginning of anywhere. Many parents in such situations would find it impossible to get the child to violin lessons with any teacher - let alone one that other people might deem to be "very good". So in such a case as this either the child doesn't learn the instrument at all - crushing the child's desire to play - or learns some of the very basics & if talented & works hard may get themselves to a point at which the parents might be able to transport the child some hundreds of miles once a month to get tuition from "a proper teacher".







........Maybe Jacky doesn't know but I bet she knows her limitations & has told the parents of the child so. Which has to be far better than some "teachers" that I know who work as peris, who let the children hold the violin with the most appalling posture, teach them to play by finger number rather than reading the music....the list goes on. Maybe if she can get the child through grade 2 the parents might be able to manage occasional lessons for the child with a better qualified person
.


That sounds an excellent idea - except if there are no violin teachers in the area it could be difficult



...so who tells the kid "sorry you can't even try to play the violin because nobody is prepared to try & help you with it"
No, I agree it's far from ideal but the world is not a perfect place & never will be. Sure if each child learning an instrument was taught by a specialist of the highest standard so they never got taught bad habits it would be wonderful but it simply doesn't happen. My eldest 2 were taught violin by an incompetent peri in primary school - unfortunately I didn't know enough at the time to realise soon enough how useless he was. My yougest 2 are taught flute in school by a trombone player....a great musician but I do all the technical stuff/technique at home with them - so they don't play with umpteen bad habits.



...because the kid wants to play the violin not the clarinet.... how sad if the child grew up to say later in life -"I desperately wanted to play the violin but nobody would help me try"

Then they could join the adult learners forum and have as much fun as everyone else here!

While I agree that there are many bad teachers out there of all musical instruments, I still think there is a limit on what one should take on with the knowledge one has. As for the definition of remote, yes, I do understand the definition in this term. I am well aware that nobody in the south of England is 'remote' in the true sense.

Would you want to take driving lessons from someone who's never driven a car themselves??? Learning the violin might not come under such a dangerous occupation lisiting, but the fundamentals remain the same - start off wrong and it all goes horribly wrong very quickly, which can actually serve to make the learner not want to carry on.

I am a multi-instrumentalist myself, but if someone took that as an indication that I could therefore just pick up and teach any instrument, the trumpet for example, I would say 'no', even if I was the only teacher for 200 miles.

If the parents are well and truly interested in the childs development and not doing it just to keep the child quiet, then I'm sorry, but they should seek professional advice by contacting an organisation such as the MU so that they may be able to be put in touch with recommended persons of repute who teach the violin.

The early stages of learning anything are the most crucial. Start off wrong and there may be no hope of putting things right.

Sometimes one needs to be cruel to be kind.

With regards to a crash course for Jacky, could this teacher not spend a week or two away from home learning the skills? It might cost money to begin with, but would pay dividends in the long run.

Hi, A-P-F. Can I just point out something that hasn't been mentioned specifically here. No one is saying the child can't play or be taught by someone whose only one step ahead if all the child aspires to is folk fiddling or playing for their own enjoyment. Many fiddlers on the folk scene have never taken a lesson and their playing is sufficient for their means. But Jackie is actually putting this child into the examine system and that's a very big difference. The child might just scrape past Grade 11 but think how demoralising it would be to fail Grade 111 (which is a huge probablity in this case). I would say if Jackie continues to teach the child she should do so with the proviso that she keeps clear of examinations. Do you think this a fair compromise?

I recently had a chat with someone who teaches at a music school who says that they often have people apply who are very musical but have not felt able to offer a place to because of severe technical problems which would take years to correct. Not something which is possible if they apply to the school for their A level years.
Now while it can't be guaranteed that technical problems won't arise if a child is taught by someone who teaches the instrument they play, i was told that more children with technical problems had had group teaching or hadn't been taught by specialist teachers.
I appreciate that it can be hard finding teachers in remote areas but I also feel that getting it right from the start is vitally important.
I'd also like to say that I'm not having a dig at teachers who group teach, I've seen some good group teaching, nor am I having a dig at those who teach instruments they don't play as many do a great job but good intentions can sometimes lead to problems in the future.

It does make me snigger that many classical violinists somehow assume folk fiddling to be easier... but then it's also great fun when they turn up at sessions and try to play - it's almost always dreadful, just like a fiddler attempting to play classical would likely sound awful too. They're just other sides of the same coin.

Having been on both sides of the fence, I can absolutely confirm that they are just as difficult as each other and each has a basic technique that has to be correct. Those 'folk fiddlers who have never taken a lesson' are pretty much now a thing of the past - mythic Irish and Scots players who never had a formal lesson but frequently learned at a relative's knee - and when you listen the the recordings, they usually sound pretty awful.

Things have changed - many virtuoso folk players now release CD's and that has lifted the standards considerably - pretty much everyone playing in sessions and professionally has had some training, if only to get the basics, and the majority have had regular lessons with a fiddler they respect.

Let's avoid knocking fiddling down as a poor cousin to playing the violin - it simply isn't.

I understand all the arguments being presented but here in the NE of Scotland 'isolated' can mean just that... one school can serve several hundred miles on the Islands and my local primary schools have one teacher for several ages all at once.

So music teachers can be hundreds of miles away. Quite literally. Rural areas don't have the luxury of music teachers in every school at all!

I would rather be introduced to an instrument by someone even vaguely knowledgable rather than not at all (and have my heart broken trying by myself).

It does make me snigger that many classical violinists somehow assume folk fiddling to be easier... but then it's also great fun when they turn up at sessions and try to play - it's almost always dreadful, just like a fiddler attempting to play classical would likely sound awful too. They're just other sides of the same coin.

Having been on both sides of the fence, I can absolutely confirm that they are just as difficult as each other and each has a basic technique that has to be correct. Those 'folk fiddlers who have never taken a lesson' are pretty much now a thing of the past - mythic Irish and Scots players who never had a formal lesson but frequently learned at a relative's knee - and when you listen the the recordings, they usually sound pretty awful.

Things have changed - many virtuoso folk players now release CD's and that has lifted the standards considerably - pretty much everyone playing in sessions and professionally has had some training, if only to get the basics, and the majority have had regular lessons with a fiddler they respect.

Let's avoid knocking fiddling down as a poor cousin to playing the violin - it simply isn't.
[/quote]

Oops pressed the reply before I'd replied. Anyway - hey I wasn't knocking folk fiddling - that's an assumption on your part and it's a wrong assumption. I was saying that folk fiddling doesn't require a rigid set of rules that are applied to classical violin playing and the exam process. I've seen folk fiddlers who rest the fiddle on their arm and not under the chin - and done brilliant stuff but they can do that or choose to hold it in the classical way - but the classical violinist cannot choose this. Folk fiddlers can choose to never stray beyond 1st position - you can't do that beyond Grade11. That's just a straight observation not a knocking. But if, as you argue, many folk fiddlers are professional vituosos of a technical standard to equal that of a virtuoso classical violinist then it isn't really folk music is it. The whole idea of folk music is that it can be played by 'folk'. You seem to be talking about traditional music revamped and upgraded beyond its original democratic roots.

Certainly modern folk players have advanced considerably, but then so have classical players - that doesn't mean the music is no longer the same - just that expectations and abilities have advanced.

Some folk players can choose to never venture beyond first position, certainly. Scots folk players do not have, and have never had this luxury - the national keys of A major, Bb major and E major mean that reels and jigs frequently venture into the higher positions - and have always done so. It's not a recent development. This is also the case for Donegal players from Ireland, Québecois players, Breton players and most Cape Breton players, so such a straight observation is an incorrect one, or at least one based on a lack of facts.

What we were talking about in this thread is simple technique, your response led me to believe that this base technique was important for classical violin playing, but not so important for fiddling, which was a discipline that one could learn alone. This is not true and, even in the days of the poor players of yore, was not the case. They were always taught by someone and shown basic technique. Furthermore, in a sense, every session is a lesson, with musicians showing each other tunes and explaining how to achieve a certain sound - this is also something that has always happened.

Base technique is just as important in folk fiddling as it is in classical music. Sometimes the technique differs (hence the classical musicians who are totally unable to reproduce folk sounds and tunes as they should be and vice versa), but the technique remains the foundation and to suggest that one could learn from anyone, even someone who doesn't play the violin, was ok - as long as one was only aspiring to folk fiddling - is ludicrous.

That said, if I misinterpreted your message then I'm sorry. I just get very tired of classical musicians assuming that you can self teach fiddling. You can't.

Allan

Hi Allan,
What we really started off talking about was putting a child through an exam by someone who couldn't pass the examine themselves and whether this was a wise move. I was trying to suggest that rather than deny the child any form of tution or encouragment she could be taught without the trauma of putting her in for examines. When I said 'folk' I just had in mind simple folk tunes - yes - I should have said simple classics as well but simple folk tunes are more fun to play! I was trying to find a happy medium. I assume you are saying by implication that the child shouldn't be taught at all?

But you still seem to insist that my comments were derogatory and ludicrous. I think that says more about your attitude than mine. I don't have a problem with folk music vs classical - or any other kind of music. My favourite fiddler/violinist is Warren Ellis of The Dirty Three!!!!!!! Even better if you get to see him without Nick Cave - although they're brilliant together.

I love folk fiddle. I particularly love that mad Scandanvian stuff!! - I used to own nearly the entire old Folkways albums of the early field recordings of music from all over the world. So to pigeon hole me as some classical purist is errr ludicrous!

Would you teach someone dance if you couldn't dance? I don't think so.

Half my teaching work in schools is taken up trying to sort out the bad habits of previously taught violin students. Hands like claws, thumbs that grip like there's no tomorrow, tense shoulders, locked wrists, fingers that raise themselves high in the air after every note, violins pointing down towards the floor, left elbows sticking out to the left (!?!), right elbows jabbing backwards with every down-bow (leading to bows scissoring all over the place), chins sticking grimly to the chin-rest, feet glued close together or even pigeon toes (!?!). Then you get students with a combination of the above wailing: 'oh my wrist hurts!' or 'oh my shoulder's aching', 'my arm's sore' - or worse.

These children were presumably taught before by people who could play the violn to at least a reasonable standard, yet those teachers had managed to let bad habits grow and fester. How can a non-violin playing adult possibly be expected to teach violin effectively? There are so many tiny details that have to be got just right - for instance the fact that the exact placement of the right thumb on the bow has maximum bearing on the whole bowing arm - how would a non-violinist be expected to know that? Or know how to teach it?

As a violinist and violin teacher I study and think about this stuff on a daily basis and am continually working out new and better ways to teach violin effectively, so that bad habits don't even have the chance to develop let alone grow and fester.

Even a top teacher at a top UK conservatoire tells me that bad habits can set in even with the very best teaching, and have to be watched out for and corrected. His own daughter, who is taught by a Professor of violin, started developing a few strange habits a while back for no apparent reason, and that's with a weekly lesson from said Professor and help from another violin Professor at home!

How can a non-violinist teacher possibly expect to know how to teach a flowing, graceful, relaxed, expressive technique? Bearing in mind that violin paying without a flowing, graceful, relaxed, expressive technique is just not the pleasurable experience it's meant to be?

It doesn't make any sense to say that a child living in a remote area miles from the nearest violin teacher has the same 'right' to play the violin as anyone else. You could just as easily say you have the right to a mobile phone signal if you live in a remote area, but, um - there's no signal - so that's that. Move to where there's a signal, or find another way of communicating!

I've just taken on an adult pupil (she's 29). With a lot of care and attention I've managed to help her to develop a pretty good technique - she certainly plays a lot better than most of the previously taught children I've taken on. This is because she's been taught from the word go by somebody who has played violin all her life and has studied violin teaching in depth. I think this illustrates that violin playing can learnt in adulthood, as long as you're a good listener/observer, have a teacher who knows what they're doing and are prepared to do a lot of practice. I would probably be in despair if I was having to sort out yet another badly taught violin student.

So to this mother - I'm sure you have the best of intentions but with the best will in the world I have very strong doubts that you will be able to teach the violin as it is meant to be taught. This child would be far better off leaving it till she lives within reach of a good teacher, and then take it from there. Why take the very strong risk of creating a faulty technique that might be virtually impossible to remove later on?

On that subject I know several adults desperate to play violin well. They were badly taught in childhood and have been to numerous teachers to sort their technique out. Two of them ended up having private lessons with violin professors and had nervous breakdowns as a result of having their technique 'stripped down'. They managed to sort themselves out in the end, up to a point, but in my view both of them have a slightly strange technique, with the residue of the bad teaching still there but now overlaid with layers of good teaching, so that you end up with a sort of hybrid of different methods and with the poor violinist barely knowing who they are violinistically.

Why go through all that when you could start off later on with a teacher who knows what they're doing?

I do feel very strongly about this - in fact it's one of the subjects I feel the most strongly about, so rather than saying 'don't get me started' I'm afraid I have started and will carry on until the point is acknowledged that it's a bad idea to teach violin unless you're a good violinist yourself and have studied how to teach it.

Violinia

NB As for the fol/classical argument, you need a good technique for both. Folk playing needs nimble, well-trained fingers and nifty bowing as well as numerous well-taught licks, ornaments and flourishes - oops, you've got me started again...

Is there any point in trying to reply - probably not? But there are some points that I'd like to make:



There are far more inadequate teachers out there than good ones. V. you make it sound as though everyone should be able to find a good teacher for whatever instrument they would like to learn. In reality you'll probably find a teacher but as to whether they're any good is another matter.
eg My own children went to a piano teacher with all the right credentials - a music degree, piano as 1st instrument,a PGCE. Turned out she was a lousy teacher. I'm a bit more informed now (though wasn't then) than a lot of parents as to what makes a good teacher & I managed to get it wrong. They now all go to a teacher who is a world apart in her teaching. And I am prepared to spend an entire evening getting them all there, waiting for them & getting them home again but having discussed it with my husband (from a very "not-musical" background) he pointed out that the majority of parents don't know what distinguishes a good teacher from a bad one & many equate cost to value - the cheaper the better, & the more convenient to travel to/lesson time etc. Although he now understands my point of view he says that a lot of parents just don't know any better



Doesn't matter what age you are you can still very easily end up with a lousy teacher. As an adult I went to a flute teacher - again with the right qualifications & in 16 months ended up with more bad habits than I care to think about.





Many children learn through the school peri system. There are some wonderful teachers out there working as peris but again I think they are in the minority. The children start an instrument in school, they get taught by whichever peri goes to that school. The parents (unwittingly) assume that a peri must be a good teacher. They trust the music service & the school to employ good teachers. The parents don't get the option to say "I don't think that peri is very good"
My personal experience - the string peri that goes into the local primary school may well be able to play to a good level but teach well, - no! My eldest 2 have spent the last couple of years with their wonderful peri at senior school, undoing the bad habits gained in primary school. I go into the primary school on a voluntary basis now having seen the damage that this particular peri inflicts. And I -as the unqualified, "shouldn't be there because I'm not a teacher"- try to instil into the kids all the things you've mentioned V. - good posture, left elbow/finger position/ fluid bowing/ playing with good intonation. If I took your posting to heart Violinia then I wouldn't go into the school again because according to your thinking I have no right to be there.... & then a whole bunch of kids would drop out of playing after 3 terms because their enthusiasm has been killed & the handful that carry on would do so with frying pan handle grips on their violins, death grips on their bows & fingers laid across the strings like sausages which the peri is happy to teach them.
Or the poor kid trying to learn the cello - taught in a group with 4 beginner violinists, given phocopied pages of the violin team strings book. The child had no previous musical knowledge, parents unable to help her & was being taught to play a bass clef instrument from treble clef music. And desperately confused because the peri was calling out the fingering for the violins - ie F# - 2 fingers whereas it's 3 fingers for F# on a cello.
Oh, and the peri who doesn't teach them to read music but gets them to play by finger number & makes them write in the finger number under each note ...aargh!



The argument that if you live in a remote area you should put up with it or move is complete rubbish. Farms & farmers can't just up & move to a more accessible part of the country. People in rural areas don't have less entitlement to enjoyment of musical activities because of where they live. We just have to make a lot of effort to get to things & probably appreciate them a lot more because of that.

In an ideal world I would love that everyone who wanted to play an instrument would be taught by a really excellent teacher. But unfortunately the world isn't like that . There are so many people on these forums alone who could tell you about the bad teaching they have experienced.

Regarding the matter of whether someone is a good teacher or not has recently been highlighted in a music service near me. In their infinite wisdom to (probably) try and make their teaching service look better than any competitors, they employed Stephanie Benedetti (Nicola Benedetti's older sister).

Fresh out of music college and with no experience of teaching in schools and yet, the service concerned has always had a policy of (claiming ) they will only employ teachers with excellent teaching records and those with plenty of experience teaching in schools.

I cannot see how someone who graduated only six months previously could have had 'plenty of experience' teaching in schools.

One can only assume that the service thought the Benedetti name would sell their lessons for them and have people clamouring for violin tuition. A marketing ploy. Parents are blinded by the name, but what they are failing to see is the name Stephanie in front of it, not Nicola. A name does not make someone a good teacher, even if their sister was BBC Young Musician 2004.

As for teachers who teach, violin-by-numbers arrgghhhh. I have lost count of the number of pupils I've inherited from this system of teaching. Laziness on the part of the teacher is to blame in most cases. It's the quickest way to get results from children who can't read music and make their parents think they've learnt something oh-so-quickly. In reality the process is a road to ruin. Short cuts never work in the long run, but where exam passes in the low grades are paramount and the teaching services wants fast results to keep the cash coming in, playing-by-numbers is one way of producing it.

Another system that gets my back up is that of teachers who stick pieces of tape across the fingerboard to mark where the fingers should be placed. Result = pupil never listens to the notes, so if the strings (or a string) is even slightly out of tune, they will still play the note on the sticky tape because they've never been taught to listen and adjust their tuning accordingly. Ultimately, sticky tape = that's where my finger should be placed regardless.

It's not even guaranteed that the BBCYM herself is a good teacher... sadly I suspect the name would have some clamouring for lessons though

...and since she still feels she needs to spend something like 7 hours a day practicing, she wouldn't have the time

I'm afraid this confusion over 'good' teachers will continue until the profession is regulated, and you yourself Violinia have been against this in the past. On the subject of peris, it's not their fault they have to teach instruments outside their specialism. At school I had to teach a bassoon player about grade 3ish, I might scrape grade 5 on bassoon myself. Luckily most were clarinet and flute - my specialist instruments. There is more to teaching than playing the instrument well; teaching skills, people skills, communication skills, ability to motivate, enthuse, knowing how children learn etc.

I feel a bit sorry for Jacky who was just asking about a piece she was helping a very keen child play and just gets slated for trying to teach violin she doesn't play well herself.

Thanks Neil for stating that - I think that's the point I wanted to make but failed to put it as succinctly as you have.

I would second that but didn't want to say anything.

Thanks a lot for all your replies - - yes Violina - I do agree that in an ideal world I would want everyone to be taught by an experienced teacher - hence my daughter travelling 4/5 hours each way for violin lessons. But, I do not think that the average parent in this area would make this journey each week for a beginner (8 hours return trip on a good day - so often results in hotel bills as well) - that is if the teacher would take them on..
To defend myself - I did do Suzuki with my daughter for 8 years and did double bass at university - so can stay ahead of the child I teach - its just sometimes I would like to pick more experienced people's brains....
As for having music in the local schools ---- there are no peris and 'music lessons' consists of singing along to a backing tape unless a parent (guess who?) goes in to help....

I don't live in London; there are no music conservatoires where I live, therefore I have no entitlement to Saturday morning music conservatoire for my kid unless I'm prepared to travel long distances or move. If I can't do either, then I have no automatic entitlement.

People in rural areas don't have the same access to cultural activities as city people - it's just a fact of life and arguing otherwise is silly. Hammerklavier went to Hungary for a year because he wanted a particular kind of high quality Kodaly teaching. If he lived in a remote area do you think he would have approached the nearest singer and got them to teach him the Kodaly method? Of course not, and if he had it's highly unlikely he'd be getting very far with the Kodaly method and the chances are he'd have to unlearn it all again later on.

If your child wants to play the violin you do your research and find the best violin teacher available within the price range you can afford. If there isn't one in your area, you don't start teaching the child yourself unless you can play the violin and know how to teach it. It isn't rocket science.

I used the examples of bad violin teaching to illustrate just how difficult it is to teach the violin even when you can play it and have music degrees, PGCE's and all the rest.

You may have a music degree and grade 8 in any number of other instriments, but if you're not a violin player you're not going to be able to teach the violin effectively and the chances are that you'll do a lot more harm than good. Who would want to do that?

I've had a number of people ask me to teach them the accordion, the guitar, piano and cello because they've heard me messing around on all of the above. On each occasion I've refused because I haven't been properly trained on any of them so don't feel it's my place to be teaching any of them.

Obviously the woman has the best of intentions and all power to her for that, but it won't be possible for her to teach the violin properly without proper training - end of story.

Violinia

Ahhh - you never mentioned the double bass before! That kind of changes things a bit... so this means you have some good instincts for left hand technique and bowing... so I'd say all is not lost after all! In that case I'd say get yourself some violin teaching videos and maybe even look into online lessons? I do know of an amazing teacher in America who sometimes gives online lessons - I can put you on to her if you're interested. It's not ideal, but it could be the solution, and as you've played a stringed instrument before you'd be well placed to help with practice.

Now if you'd mentioned the double bass before....!!!

Violinia

How does one regulate it though? By qualification? How about those with a string of qualifications who are rubbish teachers? Or those who are good teachers without the money or time to take the exams?

School teaching is regulated - by which I mean classroom lessons. Doesn't by a long shot mean there aren't some really bad classroom teachers about........

I completely agree. My 'classroom' music teacher doesn't have anything higher than a grade 8 on her instruments (and yet she teaches 2 of them), and her degree isn't really that amazing, and yet she's one of the best teachers I have ever come across!! My violin teacher on the other hand has lots of qualifications and really knows her stuff, but isn't great at putting it across in lessons.

I can sympathise with that. I work at the Uni where there are some monstrously knowledgeable peeps who can't teach for toffee! I don't mean music, cos I'm not in that dept, but just the ones I have experienced. Some are pants and I just don't know how they keep their jobs!

Qualifications don't necessarily indicate the best teachers. What about the virtuoso Manouche gypsies of Europe, none of whom have a qualification to their name - they can't even read and write let alone read music - yet they manage to teach their children to become some of the best guitarists in the world - see Jimmy Rosenberg and Bireli Lagrene to name just two. Then there's Tcha Limberger, a wonderful gypsy violinist, taught by his dad (who can't read or write words or notation).

Some people just have an instinct for teaching; some learn as they go and become better and better as time goes on. Some see it as a vocation - others fell into it because they couldn't think of anything else to do and secrety hate it. I would hazard a guess these are the bad teachers.

I know teachers without a grade 8 who are frankly brilliant, and I know of Professors who've driven many of their students to nervous breakdowns because they have no idea of basic human psychology and learning styles.

However, I would still say that one prerequisite of being a good teacher of any instrument would be that you have good knowledge of your instrument and are a good player on it yourself; not necessarily virtuosic, but well taught and with a sound technique. I relaxed on Jacky's behalf when she finally mentioned that she'd studied double bass at university. If she only played clarinet I would still think it inadvisable to teach violin. If I was on a remore island and had a child who wanted to learn clarinet and I only played violin, I'd say 'sorry - just can't do it'. If I played saxophone and bassoon, however, and also had access to clarinet tuition dvd's, I might - with the emphasis on might - reconsider...

Violinia

The postings you make certainly prove you have a better idea how to teach than many with a string of letters after their name. Indeed my first teacher for most of school was a medical student, not even a music student or had grade 8, but was a brilliant teacher. Likewise I am teaching piano without really being qualified in piano (though am in clarinet) but I must be doing something right. Maybe qualifications is not necessarily the way but some kind of monitoring of the profession can surely be set up, somehow. Answers on a postcard.

I don't think a thread starting with a genuine enquiry about a piece is the place to discuss all these things though.

If people with strings of letters after their name can turn out to be bad instrumental teachers how could you possibly have a monitoring system? If somebody hears you play and wants you to teach them, could any monitoring system you have in mind then prevent you from teaching them in your own home? How could you prevent them anyway? Could the police be called?!? Think about it! But as you say, probably time for a whole new thread about it.

Violinia, feeling yuck with a stomach bug so all lessons cancelled today, aargh.

Sounds like my flute teacher!! I come out of about 60% of my lessons in tears. Probably not helped by the fact that I'm already less stable than a one legged donkey!!

It's really painful to hear so many stories about cruel teachers - they should be caught and banned from teaching, or they should only be allowed to teach very, very tough older students who actually want that sort of treatment. Well done to you for surviving and carrying on with music...

Violinia

I had a disgusting clarinet teacher at school; he had horrible bad breath and kept putting my clarinet in his mouth to 'try out' my reed - I actually gagged once because he had 'stuff' at the corners of his mouth. He was dour, negative and taught me nothing about correct breathing etc, probably because he didn't know it himself. AND he touched me bleaugggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg

I hated my lessons and the instrument until I met my next teacher who was a professional clarinettist and a fantastic, but tough, teacher. I learned practically everything again from scratch even though I only had one two hour lesson in Glasgow every month.

(I used to bunk off chemistry class to catch the train down to Glasgow (a 3hour journey) - I did well on the clarinet but my chemistry exams were not too hot!!! )

Oh goodness - these people need to be reported and thrown out of teaching.

Sorry to take your thread off topic Jacky.

But I've got to comment on the above quote - because, quite frankly, that is not good. At all.....