I've been reading an on-line article that kc-kerobe posted a link to on another thread in which a famous US violist (now deceased) recommended that half prac time should be technique and half repertoire. Well, that makes sense and is probably what I do anyway. Half of the time fiddling with scales and intonation, some long bows etc, and the other half trying to perfect the pieces in the workbook I have. He also says that half the time should be left hand technique and half right hand. The left hand I can see what to do - work on keeping wrist straight, intonation and so on, but the right hand and what exercises to do, that's something that I certainly need, but am not sure what would be a good programme. Any ideas?

Also, I hear there's a lot of difference between viola and violin technique. Could someone be more specific for me on this one? I learn with an occasional viola playing violinist and she said the techniques were exactly the same. Any comments? Also, how long/to what level should I take lessons from someone who doesn't make a very serious study of the instrument I'm learning? Finding a suitable viola teacher will be a challenge, (I can advertise at the Uni and College of Music), but I know I will need one in time.

If anyone has any thoughts on the above, or indeed any other useful tips, I'd be grateful. Wow! I've been playing 3 months today!!! Almost a prodigy!

It is a good idea to structure your practice time so that you use your time efficiently. It can help to set an achievable goal for each practice session. I have a long list of practice tips that I have collected from various places over the years, and from time to time I work through them. Most of the exercises mentioned in the article aren't really appropriate for someone at your stage of playing though. It is difficult to suggest what you should be working on with your right hand without seeing you play, but I think that you could usefully try practicing long bows (right from the frog to the tip and back) checking that the bow moves parallel to the bridge and that the conctact point of the bow with the string is correct at all times and that your arm is moving correctly (flexible wrist etc). Whilst practicing long bows you could try putting in dynamics (for example doing a diminuendo on a down bow and a crescendo on an up bow and vice versa), and try improving the tone that you generate. You could also work on crossing strings really smoothly, making sure that your arm moves correctly as you change strings. These exercises would also help you to play your grade one pieces really well.



Don't worry about the differences in technique at the moment, they really only start to become important above about grade 5 or 6 level when you will have learnt the basics of playing. Viola players tend to use different fingerings and bowing technique and they also have to pay more attention to the way they hold their instruments due to the increased weight (compared to violin) and the difficulties of reaching the highest positions on a larger instrument. I would find it a bit worrying, though, if I had a teacher that was not aware of these differences.

I actually find having the 'handicap' of small hands makes me more aware of the difficulties in both playing the violin and viola. If you have small hands (or a big viola) you need to be inventive with your position changing and fingering patterns so as to facilitate fluency on the instrument without undue strain to the left shoulder, arm and hand.

The same goes for those with small hands and/or a short fourth finger when playing the violin.

I would never teach the viola using exactly the same technique as that for violin. They are similar in the way the instrument is held, ie. on the left shoulder, but that's as far as the similarity goes.

Just curious - if it is a disadvantage (in some ways) to have big hands and long fingers on the violin; are those features an advantage on the viola, or do they just cease to be such a disadvantage?

Could you enlarge on this please, Amanda? I would find it very helpful.

I think I have kinda average sized fingers and a 'standard' 15.5" viola, so I shouldn't experience anything too way out, but I've only been playing for 3 months so far, so the simpler the stuff, the better! I'm a long way off changing position and all that as yet. I'm still playing on 2 strings, (the 3rd comes in next week, viva la G!!!), and have just begun using 4th finger. So, it's very basic stuff and no history on violin to compare it with.

I have found that the disadvantage of large hands or long fingers comes when the teacher has those and tries to impose their fingering or technique on a pupil who has small hands. Some of the 'old school' style teachers don't make allowances for a players physique, it becomes a case of 'play it like I say, or don't bother coming to me for lessons'. (I've been there, so I speak from experience).

This is what has, in the past, resulted in many players developing tendinitis - just because the teacher is able to cope with 8th position on the G string because they have hands the size of shovels, they think everyone should be able to do it. They forced the issue to a stage where the poor student ends up injured and unable to play. The actress Marlene Dietrich is one such an example. A potential professional violinist, she only turned to acting after developing tendinitis in her left forearm, having being forced to play repeatedly in high positions on the G string. He physique wasn't able to cope with the strain and permanent injury ensued.

Thankfully that sort of teaching is in decline. Ivan Galamian was one of the first violin pedagogues to realise that the physique of the student needs to be taken into account. Dorothy DeLay was an exponent of these methods and Simon Fischer, who has written the violin instructional books 'Basics' and 'Practice', has really pushed the more hollistic methods to the fore.

Obviously there are issues in violin/viola playing that cannot be avoided regardless of hand size, but it then becomes a case of finding the best method for the student. Flexibility and finger independence are inextricably linked and have to be developed if one is to play the violin/viola/cello or bass even with some moderate success. The process is to use exercises or studies that exploit certain movments, but also vary the movments too. A analogy here is that a ballet dancer will always be a lot stronger and more flexible than an athlete, because a dancer's range of movement in the joints of the body have to be through 360 degrees in order to achieve all those different positions, often very slowly and with holds in between which requires a huge amount of muscular strength! An athlete tends to train for rapid repeats of a movement in one or two directions only - hence why a stumble in the wrong direction can often leave them with a strain or tendon injury.

If you have small(er) hands and you play the violin or viola, it is essential that you warm up progressively. Launching into a concerto cadenza would not be the way to go about it. Two octave scales to begin with, progressing to three octaves - G, A and Bb are my standard three in major, minor (harmonic and melodic) and then mix all three into a three octave run, so that the finger placements cover all possible permatations. I then move to double stopped-scales and then the Kreutzer No.2 study, or similar. (For those familair with ballet, think of it as the barre exercises before moving onto your centre work).

It is equally important that these exercices are done daily if the flexibility and finger independence is to remain, even in an experienced player. Once again, much like a dancer, even a couple of days off can mean stiffening of the joints or slight loss of co-ordination.....

Elisabeth,
I shall return later and answer your question as well.

Elisabeth,

Just to give you a few examples of how differently I would teach the violin from the viola.


Bow hold is essentially the same, but the entire weight of the arm needs to be used in order to draw the same quality of tone from a viola as one would from the violin. The violin tends to require only the weight of the hand and forearm.

The viola, due to its increased size needs to come more forwards on the shoulder. This helps distribute the weight more evenly and also assists the left hand with the stretch across to the C string. It is also ok to let the scroll drop slightly downward - not so far that the bow is fighting gravity to stay on the string and don't tip your upper body forward either, stand up straight.

Finger independence is absolutely vital on the viola. The stretches are a lot bigger and 'freeing' the left hand is essential. For the average sized hand or small-handed violist, playing in high positions on the C string at not an option in any form.

Having also played the cello myself, I try to encourage viola players to imagine they are playing a small cello. A decent viola will have a sonority similar to a cello - exploit that sound, make it rich and luxurious!!



Hope that's given you a bit of insight into how I approach teaching the viola. It is a very differnet animal to the violin and therefore I teach it as such.

I can attest to this. I started working on C-string on my 15" viola and find out I actually have been "gripping" the fingerboard with my thumb, unconsiously of course. When playing G on C-string, my LF cramp up painfully. So, now back to working on wrist holding positions. Interesting how moving the left elbow in under the viola to give you that extra stretch a few millimeter could complete throw off your wrist and finger poistions.

Yes, it requires some adjustment in the fingers to allow for the elbow movement. Regular practice of the technique will soon sort it out.

That's helpful, Amanda! Thanks

Thanks, Amanda! Although Viohazard's problems are more the opposite - he's a head taller than even his male teachers, and nowhere near finished growing. I can span 9 notes on the piano with my fingers still curved, and his hands are already quite a bit bigger than mine... I've been wondering for a while if he'd be interested in viola, when his violin technique is more secure.

Which of your violin students do you recommend take up viola?

About the C-string/high-position stretch, I think I see what you mean. Viohazard's teacher suddenly realized a few months back that his left hand hold in high positions was sloppy, but his hands are so big that he was still reaching the "back" strings.

Since he's left-handed, I doubt that finger-independence would be a problem for him. 5-stringed violin, maybe?

Actual hand size is not the issue, although if you do have bigger hands, then sometimes a larger instrument is easier to play from a physical point of view because you're not trying to squidge fingers together into tiny spaces. Clearly it will be easier for those with bigger hands and naturally large stretches to play a 16 or even 17 inch viola, but I know of some quite small players who also manage with a farily big viola. Anyone with fat fingers will often do better on larger members of the bowed string family because the margin for finger placement is a lot greater.

I try not to recommend any particular person takes up the viola. It has to be personal choice in a lot of cases. Those who do sometimes take it up in addition to the violin, while others gradually swap from one instrument to the other.

Left-handedness is no indication of better finger independence. In fact, because the fingers tend to be bunched together more for such things as writing or doing everyday chores, it sometimes impedes the spread of the hand. For larger hands this is not so much of an issue, but in general and through my own experiences, right-handed people generally have more independence in their left-hand fingers than a left-handed person. Whether this is due to the fact that the hand itself is free of imprinted set movements or tasks it performs, I don't know.

Thanks Amanda for all your tips and insights - much appreciated.

Yes, I agree and always tell people a viola is like a small cello, NOT a big violin!!

I did have one student about seven years ago who decided to take up the viola (in addition to the violin) because she had always wanted to play the cello, but didn't want the inconvenience associated with transporting a cello around.

And I have a friend who loves cello, but said he would rather learn something easy to carry with him. Funnily enough, his next comment was 'I'd like to take up piano again.'

Anyway, back to the original question, that of devising a good practice routine for someone of my level - ie been playing only 3 months and just rejoicing in her first passable quality viola. I would prac for 20-30 mins per day and so I would be grateful for any ideas of how much time to devote to what. I've been givebn some super suggestions on technique and open string/boeing exercises to do, but what proportion would it be good to devote to which parts?

Paganini had extra long fingers and some say that's part of the reason he was able to do what he could do on the violin, so I don't think they could be a disadvantage!

Violinia



Sorry, disagree. If I pick up a viola and start playing it (have hardly ever played one) my fingers automatically go into the right places just by listening. It's a wider stretch, yes, but it's a narrower stretch when you change position on the violin so finding the notes on a viola shouldn't be a problem as long as you use your ears as a guide.

Cello, however, is another matter! I can manage a scale on one but miss a lot of notes at first because the gaps are so much larger. Plus you play it with the neck facing away from you and hold the bow back to front! So a viola is a big violin, not a small cello!!! Otherwise how could I just pick up a viola and play it?

Violinia

Hmm. Actually I prefer to think of it the other way round with the violin being a small viola. This is based on a simple analysis of the names of the different instruments.

In Italy the term viola was used as a general term for all instruments of the 'violin' family. The other names of the violin family instruments were derived from it:

viol+ino (smaller), which means small viola, the soprano viola
viol+one (larger), which means big viola, the bass viola
viol+on +cello (smaller than violone), which means smaller bass viola.

But actually I agree with Violinia, there are more similarities between playing a violin and a viola than between playing a viola and a cello. Various people have tried to make larger violas (up to about 21 inches long) and play them like cellos, but these experiments have not been successful.

Purple is right about the linguistics bit - I too think of violin as viola's baby brother!!

Anyway, what I meant about a viola being a small cello had to do with tuning C-G-D-A, not with technique. The strings, give or take the octave, are the same. To my mind, a 'big violin' would have the same tuning as a violin - G-D-A-E, however it was played!

Well, as there's no danger of anyone answering the original question, I think I'll give up asking it!!!!

I'm finding the move from cello to viola pretty easy, for what it's worth. The biggest difference for me is not in the fingering, but in the bowing. The lighter, faster bow of the viola is very different from my cello bowing. And the movement seems to me to come from different joints of the hand and the arm.

Sorry Violinia, but your quote about Paganini is wrong. It's an urban myth that he had extra-long fingers. And there's proof of that too, because a cast was made of his hand after his death. His hands were actually quite small for a man. (If you'd attended the Paganini exhibition at the RAM last year, you could have seen a photograph of the hand cast. The picture was taken with a ruler beside the cast too - a bit like a forensics photo).

What Paganini suffered from (if that's the way to phrase it) was extreme double-jointedness, a disorder of the connective tissue otherwise known as Marfan's syndrome. It is SOMETIMES characterized by extra-long limbs, but in the case of Paganini this was not so, certainly not in his hands. It comes at a price in the long run - horrendously arthritic joints can develop, but Paganini was spared that since he didn't live long enough.

Paganini had such flexibility that he was able to keep his hand in third position, or higher, and simply reach forward and back for the notes. The violinist Sivori also learned this practice and achieved a similar ability to Paganini. The modern day exponent of the Paganini school is Gacetti (now in his 90s and still playing the violin, he is the so called geat-grand pupil of Paganini) but for someone to learn this system with hands that are not so flexible, it takes a lot of hard work to develop the skill.

When I described the viola as a mini cello, I was not referring to it in the sense of the way the instrument is held, but in the power and sonority of the tone the player should develop.

Everyone's idea of the perfect or ideal practice regime is personal to themselves.

It's all about thinking for yourself and taking stock of what you consider you can do and what you consider requires more careful attention.

While playing open strings is useful practice, overdoing it won't actually make any further improvement. You might think you've got the hang of it, and you probably have, but no sooner the left hand comes into play, the right arm will lose the plot again.

It's more about learning to assimilate both pieces of information at the same time - much in the way a pianist has to take in two staves and several notes in each hand.

Getting both hands co-ordinated and working smoothly with good technique only comes with using both hands at the same time, not repeatedly using one and then the other seperately.

Take stock of what you have done so far and concentrate on what you find difficult, not what you find easy.

Thanks Amanda!

Yes, seems that you and I are in agreement about the viola/cello bit. That's what I meant too. I never meant anything to do with technique, just with tuning, sound and so on. I was messing with a friend doing some bits from the 'Pride and Prejudice' soundtrack book they have. After tranposing a line or two into alto clef, I tried to play it along with her on piano. It sounded better, and just like a cello, when I dropped an octave! Might also have something to do with the fact that my A string notes sound so strained. Any ideas why, anyone?

Yup, I totally agree about the practice being personal etc. I just wanted some general ideas about what would be good for someone at my stage. I've been sent some great open strings exercises and have plenty of repertoire to play with. I also quite agree about the getting the right hand perfect then it going to pot the second you join in with left hand. I think I need to work on both separately and together. Wish I could work on it for 2 hours a day! How my teacher ever managed to get to G8 within 3/4 years (from age 9-12) I can't imagine! She must have practised incessantly! Well, maybe that's possible for a kid, but for a woman with responsibilities, it's a bit OTT!

Oops sorry! But whether it was long fingers or extreme double-jointedness the result was the same - a peculiarity of his anantomy allowed him to reach notes most of us can't.

And sorry about my misunderstanding of what people meant by the similarities between violin, viola and cello. For the record I do agree with you about the power and sonority one should aim for with the viola.

Violinia