I'm beginning to despair of myself when it comes to reading bass clef fluently on the piano. I'm better at reading it on the cello which I have been learning for about a month!!!!!!! It's crazy. I can even read bass clef better when transposing it to play on flute than I can on the piano.

I'm not bad when it's only the left hand playing, my brain does the necessary decoding pretty well, but as soon as I am playing two hands together I have to know the left hand inside out to have any hope at all of managing it.

Whereas on the treble clef I can instantly translate the note into playing, on the bass clef it's all a bit more tedious and involves more conscious thought.

I know I've read about books to help people to get better at reading bass clef - any such book recommendations or other ideas?

I don't have any ideas, but I have exactly the same problem. I can transpose it onto flute, or play it with just my left hand, but can't play both together. I normally cheat and write both parts into treble clef!!

Perhaps (bwahahah) you need to indulge yourself in some more scales and technical excercises. Here is my theory.

You can play the notes, so reading the clef is not a problem - you can play it single line on flute and 'cello for instance. Good.

But, you struggle with two hands at once: the co-ordination needs working on. There was a thread on this a while back about the 3 stages of playing a note: recognising, translating to keyboard, playing note etc, and how after time the second step was missed out (or something similar) - this is the same thing. Once you can spot patterns and shapes, it all becomes more fluid, and is easier to do.

So I prescribe some scales for thee - hands together. Try some obscure ones like thirds and sixths for fun.

Whoops! Did I say fun?

Oodles

meanie!

Thing is, I'm good at scales - they're the only thing I'm good at on piano - I do 3rds and contrary motion in all keys (including some melodics - interesting when contrary!) and 6ths in some... and chromatics in contrary and both hands at weird intervals.......

Maybe I'm just weird. Don't fell obliged to agree

Piano is too haaaaaaaaaaaaaaard

Sorry, have no advice , but yes, it sounds like your brain is mentally getting scared when you see bass notes on music (I presume you don't do scales from a book)...

Aren't there some pieces which are just in the bass clef? Maybe those will help...

(and yes, you are a bit odd )

What about reading through some simple duets where you play the lower part - many will have both hands playing from bass clef (or is that likely to cause a complete meltdown?!) Agree with above - your brain has to learn to translate bass clef directly into finger movements/patterns. Nothing fo rit but lots more practice I'm afraid...

I wonder whether you are trying to read piano music in the same way That I think you might read flute music (or similar)?
What i mean is that, from my limited experience, when playing something like woodwind or brass you tend to see a note and either think of a fingering or the note name.
On piano you don't need to do this and largely read by interval and chord recognition.
If you are trying (maybe not consciously) to read note names in 2 clef at the same time it's not going to be awfully efficient.

I think you need to think of it as the bottom half of the great stave, so it's actually an extension downwards of the treble stave, instead of a totally different clef with different notes (if that makes any sense!). I teach my pupils to use the F line as a landmark & read by interval.

You do have to be patient - it does get better gradually. I find most adult pupils take quite a while to become really comfortable with the bass clef, whether they're completely new to music reading or have great experience of reading treble clef. Even some people with experience of bass clef reading find it quite hard on the piano - perhaps it's more to do with learning to read & play with the left hand than the actual clef.

I would grab a hymn book (or something similar with plenty of material in it) and do some sight reading everyday. Do it hands together, but read from the bottom of the chord up, if that makes sense - so instead of reading left to right or (as most of my students do) top to bottom, look at the bass first, then the treble for each chord. Slow? Yep. Painful? You bet! ...But it will help!

Sorry Oddy. I don't see how scales can help improve bass clef note reading fluency. I suggest lots and lots and lots and lots of sight reading! I know, I'm cruel, but the more practice you get the better! Get a hymn book, song book and get practicing Miss Flute!

I don't know - I think I generally read by interval more, especially on bass clef (even when I play flute from the bass clef, I'll get to the right note and play by interval more than by going "ooh, that's a G") - I would have to think for a second to tell you what a note outside the clef (ie with leger lines) is in the bass clef. This is one of my problems, as as soon as you have a piece with large jumps (like the Lyadov I'm murdering at the moment...) it's not really possible to read by interval, and I have heaps of leger lines to deal with which I just can't read fast enough. I don't struggle with the legers at all above the treble clef, I can read instantly up to at least G, and by interval above that. When you're dealing with 4 or 5 legers, you just have to read by interval (well I do!) so it's something I do quite a lot.

The only way I've found to cope is by learning both hands really thoroughly separately, and only then putting them together, but this Lyadov is driving me up the pole because I can't even seem to read it very fluently (without serious mental gymnastics) just left hand alone.

I've only been back to the piano a few years but I started learning bass clef when I was 10... why is this so hard?

Write some note names in.
I think most people would do that with too many leger lines and you might only need them temporarily.
You know enough not to overdo it.

I think I used this method whilst I was in early stages of self-learning. The way I learnt the bass clef was via landmarks - I began at the top, with the notes going down being C,B,A. Next landmark to learn was that the penultimate space (I didn't count the under the staff space a space) was the C below middle C. Next, the last space was A. Then, the second line from top is an F, and the one above G. However, when you are looking at these landmarks, do not landmark the name to the 'picture' - landmark the actual visual aid of the key and the playing of that note to the 'picture of the note' instead.

Eventually, you fill in the gaps from there, and you can recognise all the notes. If you get your theory nailed, then in practice, when it comes to practising the practical part in the bass clef, it should be fine!

Alternatively, you could just sight-read loads of basic music for piano - actually, I think I played the same piece over and over again, and had the bass clef nailed from that one piece with help from landmarks!

~Wobby~

I definitely read bass clef the same way as treble, ie by interval. I taught myself to grade 3 standard so I had to figure it out myself.

My back-up system consisted of looking at for example the bottom line on bass clef and calling it E the same as treble, but on the piano I presumed that the G I was playing on the piano was actually called E (If that makes sense ). I guess to sum up, I read both treble and bass clef as the same notes but on the piano I moved the bass clef notes up 2

I find it so interesting that other people have the same problems as me with the bass clef. I thought I was just bad at playing the piano. I instantly recognize notes in the treble clef and can name them without thinking about them, but I can't remember the names of the bass notes, I just seem to remember their positions on the keyboard. I've been doing exercises with a basic piano tutor book, where you have to name a bass clef note within so many seconds, as I think this might help me. I also have terrible problems with ledger lines - I just guess the notes, and most of the time they seem to be right. Perhaps there's some subconscious part of the brain that helps with this, and that the more you play, the easier it gets.

What about doing lots of note naming with the bass clef? The following website is good for this:

http://www.musictheory.net/trainers/html/id82_en.html

(sorry don't know how to make it a link)

Well you did! (make it a link that is)

That's really useful. I'm going to recommend it for my students. Might use it myself for alto and tenor clefs.

Yes, not quite sure how it happened! Must have been automatic.

Here's a couple more:

http://www.practicespot.com/theory/?t=92

http://www.metronimo.com/uk/software/index.php?page=tetris

I'm presuming you were another type of instrumentalist before picking up piano then, thus why you picked up treble clef faster (i.e. you already knew it)! It's funny really, as us first-instrument-being-piano-pianists only know the treble and the bass clef played together, so by the time we've learnt one, we've learnt both. I guess the way we can see it from the non-first-instrument-being-piano-pianists' point of view is by trying to read from the alto or tenor clef!

I guess the only way you can cover knowing all the clefs fluently is by being a piano, viola and bassoon player - or some sort of singer with a tremendous span from bass to treble that can sing all parts of SATB simultaneously - that is providing they are using the old style scores, and not the ones that are just written in treble and bass clef!


~Wobby~

I've mentioned this before, but in case there is anyone newer to the forums who doesn't yet know about it

Oxford Piano Time has pieces online that you can download. I think it's in Piano Time 2 there is extra help for the bass clef.

http://www.oup.co.uk/music/pianotime/pieces/PT2pieces/

Also, there is a book called, helpfully, 'The Bass Clef Book' by Maisie Aldridge, which goes from easy 5-finger tunes through folk songs to quite advanced stuuf. Last time I checked, it was still available.

I had the same problem, and almost wrote the letter names on the bass clef. BUT, keep playing and it gets better.
Bev.

Not at all! Piano was my first instrument at the age of eight (second insrument was violin) - I've just always found the treble clef much easier. My son's piano teacher explained my difficulty with the bass clef as being caused by the fact that the bass clef goes backwards and the treble clef goes forwards (if you see what I mean).

The links are very useful - I'm going to try them.

My son's piano teacher explained my difficulty with the bass clef as being caused by the fact that the bass clef goes backwards and the treble clef goes forwards (if you see what I mean).

Do you mean the note-names (ie the alphabet) go backwards? That is one way of looking at it, it's true,

If that is the problem, have you tried ignoring note names and hopping down the bass lines from middle C?
Don't know if this will help - some find it useful. One hop (next but one note) gets you to the top line, two hops second line down etc.

If you need a space, hop down to the line above the space and then one note on for the space. if you see what I mean.

Could someone please explain the backwards/forwards idea? I can't for the life of my work out how the alphabet goes backwards in the bass clef, unless you read from the top of the stave down - which is like reading this post starting from right to left

I guessed that was what ChrisH meant - thinking from the top down. If you are working from the centre out.

Thanks for clarifying Maggie. I had never thought of reading music like that! (And consequently have never taught my students to read like that). Which makes me wonder if there is a convention to reading music from bottom to top, or if that was merely the way I was taught so that's the way I teach. Very interesting!

I have no way of being sure if that was what ChrisH was thinking - but "middle-out" is a natural starting point for some keyboard players. Theory books on the other hand tend always to work "up" from the bottom of each stave.

Even when I teach sing methods that start in middle C position, I always teach reading from the lowest note on the stave. So if the book is only using 3 notes, we read from A in the bass, B, middle C, then right hand D, E, etc. My students are aware of the concept that if the music is going up, the alphabet runs forwards, and if it is going down, the alphabet runs backwards (I like to challenge them to recite the alphabet from A-G backwards as fast as they can, the little ones love it!) However, they usually read by interval, and we only learn letter names of notes so that they can communicate with other musicians later in life ("can we go from the D in bar 3").


Apologies to the original poster for moving slightly

Yes, I do the "backwards alphabet" thing too - can you say it three times without a mistake ?

Nic, I'd say that broadly I do many of the same things you do. But I find that some pupils lose their bearings once they have a range of more than about an octave on the music to deal with. However much we use "whole keyboard" in other ways, some find joining music on the copy to notes on the keyboard leaves them a bit at sea. I teach reading by interval too much of the time - once start note is established, but a few less confident readers have found that hopping up ( into the treble) or down (into the bass) stave lines from the middle is a useful way to find start-notes, and has given some a clearer idea of general keyboard geography.

It has uses with leger lines too - younger students have enjoyed counting out the five stave lines (either way), then working out eg how many more lines you need to write the very last note on the keyboard.

TOO many!! I have never really read by interval, but as I'm primarily a clarinettist that could be why.

I played Guitar for years before taking up the piano and occasionally in error read the Bass clef as if it was treble, makes for some interesting counterpoint but not very musical. I like the idea of seeing it as one big stave rather than two separate ones.

Problem I have is sight reading or just playing whilst not looking at the keyboard, always hit a note/chord to to the left or right of the correct note, any help here?

My first instrument is piano, which I started playing when I was about 5. Recently I've switched from violin to viola, so I've had to start learning alto clef... to me it feels like I've just always known treble and bass clef, and it's really hard trying to learn a new clef now!

At the risk of saying something that might be obvious - make sure you are sitting directly in front of the "middle C" group of two black notes. even an inch or so one way or the other will risk throwing your sense of where you are.

I get my students to practise finding their way around with eyes shut. Give yourself a note that is fairly easy to find (eg F below middle C) and locate it. Don't just make a shot in the dark - take time to feel around for the appropriate group of black keys, using the spaces between the groups as landmarks, and work out where the F is. Play it and then look and see if you are right. Then try a treble note. Stay within the stave for the first few times, but gradually progress from note-names to actual positions on the stave. Visualise where it comes in the pattern of black and white keys before you try to locate it.

Sorry if it all sounds like a kid's game - sometimes a few minutes of this at the start of each practice session for a week or two can make quite a difference to your general accuracy and keyboard "geography". Hope my description makes sense.

I had never thought of the bass clef as going backwards either, until my son's piano teacher mentioned it. I wondered if this was why I had problems remembering the names of the notes in the bass clef - I have always played by recognising the intervals rather than by knowing the names of the notes on the clef, but have been teaching myself recently to name the notes as well. I play notes on ledger lines as well by recognising the intervals. This seems to work most of the time, but I find ledger lines very hard. I was interested to see that teachers actually teach reading by intervals - I developed this myself because I couldn't remember the names of the notes.

I'm having the opposite problem - the first instrument for which I really had to learn to read music was the piano, and I have no difficulty at all in reading the bass clef for that; like other contributors, I read by interval recognition and chord patterns, but can also readily identify notes on the stave and up to about three ledger lines each way by name....however, I'm struggling like crazy to make sense of trying to play my new bass recorder from the bass clef because the shortcuts from dot to fingering are wired a different way. Where there is a big imbalance between what your two hands can do quickly, I guess the hands separately approach may help, but I bet it feels sloooooow, doesn't it? I know I'm getting very impatient with my bass playing .

Frustrating, isn't it!

Thanks MaggieMay, I'll give that a try, I comfort myself saying that a semitone out is not bad, at least I'm getting close! I'll give it a few weeks with 5 mins practising as you say and see what happens.

I've resurrected this thread rather than start a new one because it contains some interesting comments and links.




I think this is what I'm trying to do, although not necessarily consciously. But because the bass clef isn't "natural" to read in the way that the treble clef is, I do sometimes have to consciously work out what the note is. It wasn't an issue at first, but I'm having more trouble now that I'm playing chords, and trying to do more sightreading. I am getting better at reading the music by interval but instantly recognising, say, the bass note of a chord still throws me when sightreading.

(I mean sightreading in the exam sense, ie looking at it for x seconds then making a reasonably competent job of playing it first time)



Yes, I think this is how I see it. So if, say, finger 3 is on a note and the next note goes down the clef (ie use finger 4), I will sometimes go up the clef instead and use finger 2 I don't do this when practising a piece I'm learning, but I do it sometimes when sightreading.


I've found this web site and trainer from another forum link - http://www.studybass.com/tools/bassclef-notes/ and I think it's quite a good trainer because you can see your times improve. But I would like to use a trainer for chord recognition - does anyone know of one? I know I'll improve with practice, but I thought a chord trainer might help.

To help with this I sometimes have my student close their eyes and place their hand (one at a time) on the keyboard. Then I call out either finger numbers or 'step up... skip down etc).
Sometimes having the left hand screwed on the opposite way to the right is a tricky one to sort out.
I did have one 7 year old who pointed out to me that this was far to obvious to be worth mentioning!

I've found this web site and trainer from another forum link - http://www.studybass.com/tools/bassclef-notes/ and I think it's quite a good trainer because you can see your times improve. But I would like to use a trainer for chord recognition - does anyone know of one? I know I'll improve with practice, but I thought a chord trainer might help.
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I like this, it's good because it actually times your answers and to be honest my bass clef recognition at speed is not great, and is a downfall to my sightreading.

There is a program called Noteable that you can buy (it's quite cheap). If you have a digital piano then you can use the MIDI out to press the actual keys for the notes displayed.

There is a free alternative called Jalmus which is good too, but I prefer Noteable.