Hi,

I currently have a bright 12 year old pupil who has recently passed her grade 1 with high merit, and at the moment we are just expanding her repertoire before thinking about further grades. However, I have started going through the grade 2 scales with her, as it seems to make sense to keep stretching her plus she quite likes technical exercises. BUT....she absolutely cannot get the hang of putting them hands together. She is fine hands separately, and can on occasion (but only rarely) get the similar motion scales corect hands together one octave - but two octaves hands together is a complete disaster. I've tried going slowly, focussing on one octave and then trying to extend gradually, but we are really stuck in a rut now. The main issue seems to be that her fingering is all over the place, but she isn't listening or remembering when I try to get her to think about where her 4th finger should be in each scale.

I haven't come across this to such an extent before. Could anybody recommend any techniques that have been successful?

Many thanks,
C.

Have you tried contrary motion scales?
I know, I know, they're not set, because they're "harder" etc, but I don't actually think they are harder, and they might be easier for her to get the hang of.

I find contrary motion easier. Posibly because the hands are a mirror image of each other then?

Not for every scale, only C E and Eb major if I recall correctly.

Closer than similar motion by a long shot..

Hmm, depends how you look at it. There are a fair few scales where contrary motion doesn't end up being a nice "1-2-3-1-2-3-4-5" in each hand - think of the flat minor keys for instance! I am too tired to think of which ones off the top of my head, but there are plenty that are not really a mirror image at all in terms either of black key landmarks and which fingers you're using at any one time.

That said, I like contrary motion scales, but then scales are the only thing I'm any good at on the piano

Some of my pupils have this difficulty. I have tried the following with varying degrees of success.

Talking a lot about “regular scales” (like regular verbs in language learning.) I call scales regular which begin RH thumb LH finger 5 and finish LH thumb and RH 5. We “discover” the patterns of groups of three and four fingers in relation to the keys. For example C major is regular in both hands and alternates groups of three / four fingers. F major is regular in the LH but irregular in the RH because you can’t put your thumb on B flat. As they play I say the finger changes aloud “ RH thumb, LH 3” etc.

For irregular scales I try to establish little “tricks”. For example B flat major : “Watch your RH going up and do the opposite with your LH – i.e. RH 4 on B flat so LH must be 3. Coming down you watch your LH and do the opposite with RH. E flat major is similar except you have to say “different” for B flat and “same” for E flat. Sounds clear as mud away from the keyboard but in practice can work. I try to get them to see the logic of the fingering in relation to the geography of the keyboard. the biggest problem is the reluctance to use the LH 4 coming down. You can get away with it in some scales but not all.

A parent once passed me a set of pictures of the keyboard. There is one for each scale. the RH version is at the top of the page with the LH version below it. The fingering for each note over a 2 octave range is printed on the keys. I call these “picture scales” and use them a lot – again with varying degrees of success.

For the AB syllabus I try to teach Grade 1 scales while they are preparing the Prep Test and I try to start Grade 2 scales towards the end of their preparation for Grade 1. The first scale in the Grade 2 book is G major but I always teach C major hands together first.

I also do quite a bit of 1 octave practice before going on to 2 octaves. I think many children need a lot of time to absorb the different ways of co-ordinating the finger movements and you have to go very slowly or they muddle everything.

Like Noodle I get pupils to start with a key like E major as the number of sharps help to put the thumbs in the correct place generally.

For Grade two, I make people aware that their middle fingers should go together every time, with the exception of F major and B minor, where the thumbs go together every time. Slow practise at home and in the lesson generally gets things correct most of the time.

I have always found that my pupils have the most difficulty in remembering the finger-crosses, confused as to whether it is a 3rd or 4th finger cross. i now have them remember which note has the 4th finger on it (at earlier grades it is the same note throughout the scale). Also, as suggested before, I get them to do one octave ending on thumbs.

Seems to work.

I begin two octave scales, which is perhaps where your pupil is having problems, by using a Tea Coffee Coffee Coffee rhythm (Crotchet then six quavers, crotchet, six quavers etc) so that the key notes are emphasised. After each long note a finger four is used. When the pupil is playing two octave scales using C major fingerings the others can be added little by little. I don't find problems then.

I've tried that with a lot of my pupils - the fingering "rules and tips" as I call them, like RH 4 on Bb in every flat scale etc but they just don't seem to retain the facts - some I end up reminding week after week after week........and others just "get it" with no problems......

the biggest problem is the reluctance to use the LH 4 coming down. You can get away with it in some scales but not all.
yes - I agree this is one of the main stumbling blocks. I get them to aim for the "landmark" of thumbs together on the keynote halfway down - that is in "regular" scales. I also do quite a lot of one-octave work hands together before embarking on two octaves.

I think B flat is the worst - nothing corresponds hand to hand - although the 3-4 thing is certainly useful - not sure I've used that! I find Eb less of a problem than Bb - and I usually teach it in contrary motion first.

This is a really useful thread. Something I picked up in the Music Teacher mag a while ago is to sing the number of sounds (not to be confused with finger numbers) between each 'thumb under' for the regular fingering for 2 octave scales.

Sing - 123 thumb, 123 thumb, 12 thumb and up to (key note).

This works going up in the RH and going down with the LH and has a nice rhythm as well. I think the children find it difficult for the less time and notes available to get the 'last thumb under the 3' movement.

The basic thumb under exercises can be helpful if used imaginatively. One of my pupils suggested telling the time as 'thumb past 3' or 'thumb past 4' (o'clock)

I too find teaching contrary motion first very useful - especially for the older pupils - starting at the far ends of the piano with one octave and gradually extending to two.

[quote name='chocolatedog' date='May 20 2007, 12:04 AM' post='515882']
[quote name='Aquarelle' post='515768' date='May 19 2007, 09:23 PM']
Some of my pupils have this difficulty. I have tried the following with varying degrees of success.

I've tried that with a lot of my pupils - the fingering "rules and tips" as I call them, like RH 4 on Bb in every flat scale etc but they just don't seem to retain the facts - some I end up reminding week after week after week........and others just "get it" with no problems......
[/quote]


It's good to hear that other teachers have the same problem!
I've got a 12 year old boy doing Grade 2 in July and am going through exactly the same thing. I've tried nearly all of the tips that have been mentioned in this thread but he just can't seem to "get it". (Although Petrat's tea-coffee-coffee-coffee idea is something I hadn't thought of and just might work - thank you, Petrat!)
My biggest worry is that I'm having to spend much too long on scales in his lessons and so am not left with enough time on everything else! He's my only student with this problem - my other Grade 2 students just seem to be able to do it - although, of course, they did have to work at it initially. He assures me that he's working at home in the ways that I'm suggesting, but I wonder! Wouldn't we all like to be a fly on the wall sometimes?!

The moment my current grade 2 pupils did their grade 1 exams I put them straight onto one octave scales hands together and have done just that for a good few months........they are now starting hands together 2 octaves and so far they are doing OK but I have had pupils over the years who just can't get the patterns sorted at all........

QUOTE
My biggest worry is that I'm having to spend much too long on scales in his lessons and so am not left with enough time on everything else!

I have the same worry. I have tried to solve it by telling pupils if they want to do the next grade they have to learn their technical work by the end of the Christmas term. We only have one exam session here, in the summer and I have to follow the school year in timing my teaching. In any case I doubt if any of my pupils could manage more than one grades worth of scales per year! This works (more or less). After Christmas I divide the technical work into two halves. One week they practise the “blue” group and I hear that. The next week they practise the “pink” group. How I divide it depends on the individual difficulties pupils have. I also try to group scales and arpeggios with the same fingerings. Nearer the exam I tell them they may practise one group only if they like but I will hear a selection from both.

I also find that if I ask for the scales in the order in which they are printed in the book the children recognise more quickly and play them better. This won’t do for the exam so nearer the time I give them a set of little cards with the scales etc written on them and I ask them to “lucky dip” at home. The younger ones quite like getting a parent to pull out the little card.

This thread is really very helpful. I’ve picked up some useful hints

Sorry - how does this help with hands together scales? You can't sing both patterns surely?

I think the key thing is to get the pupil to discover the patterns for themselves - then they feel they 'own' the scale a bit more.

For all scales I watch my left hand and let the right hand look after itself. I have always advised pupils to do this too although I don't specify which hand they should watch. (I actually tried to do it the other way round a few days ago and found it IMPOSSIBLE! so it may be a brain thing which hand they need to watch)

Good thread!

Sing the RH pattern going up, and do the second thing you mention but letting the LH look after itself, then sing the LH pattern going down. Being very secure each hand should help hands together anyway.

By the way (edit abbreviation)! - it would work both hands in contrary motion!

Have you tried this http://www.practicespot.com/scalesmanual.phtml?t=77 ? sometimes when information is presented in a slightly different way the penny can drop rather than trying to make sense of reading dots on lines

I find the Paul Harris books useful for pre-scale exercises... does anyone else use them?

I tried them, but thought they were an overly complicated way of learning scales. Others will probably disagree, but I just didn't like them and they didn't seem to "click" with the students I tried them out on.

My solution to the hands together scales problem is to begin with C sharp major. They never have a problem with the fingering of this scale and if they practise it enough the fingers become accustomed to scale fingering principles. Follow this with F sharp major and then B major. I always give them a confidence boost by letting them know that these are really grade 4 and 5 scales so they are really doing something very impressive!
When these are being played with confidence then you can venture onto the more complex white key scales.
This has never failed for me!

So what LH fingering do you use for G,D,A majors? Do you follow the "LH 4th finger on F sharps" principle (same as "RH 4th on B flats") ? Or do you use the normal C major pattern? I'm only asking because I want to know how they find the change from having both the 4 groups together in Db, F sharp, B majors to the 4 group versus 3 group fingering you get in the white key scales (using C major fingering for them all.......) (If you can follow all that!!

My last piano teacher used the same principle as slk but because I had already learnt traditional fingerings for all the scales with another teacher I never really took to his system. As far as I can recall, you did always put the fourth finger on a black note which meant that you never started with your fifth finger in your left hand on the key note. (Although I can't remember what he did for C major).

Thank you so much for all of these suggestions - some I've tried, but many I haven't so will give them a go. It's just a case of getting the balance, I think, between wanting to get them right and not giving her a complex about them so that she dreads that part of each lesson! I did contrary motion E major with her this week and she is fairly good at that one legato, so we are now working on it staccato as she has to think more about her fingering. She seemed to enjoy it more, so hopefully I can gradually introduce more similar motion scales in a light-hearted way too!

C.

I use the standard C major fingering when I come to the white not scales. But I find that, by starting with the black sharp majors, the hands have learnt to play together. This takes the fear and confusion away. I then point out that the 4 th finger only plays one note, so that helps when the scales become more difficult.