Hi, I am new to this forum so sorry for any rule breaking

Anyway, What do you need to teach? I am hoping for Grade 8 in 2 -3 years on Piano, and 3-4 until Grade 8 on Classical guitar, I enjoy theory and am starting grade 6.

Can I teach when I'm Grade 8?

Do you have to register with ABRSM so you can enter pupils for grades?

Do you have to take "working with people/children" or "safety" type exams?

Thanks in advance!!!

I will never be persuaded that a full time music college course is not the best foundation for teaching. There you will take your own studies to a very high level, have lots of opportunity to perform and will have formal tuition in the principles of teaching. Also you will have the chance to observe lessons at all levels, attend and take part in master classes etc and these are things that you may not get the opportunity to do if you do not follow a full time course. If you decide that school work is for you a follow on PGCE course will enable you to do that too.

We were just having this discussion the otherday at college - where we are all studying for ALCM/ATCL and LLCM/LTCL and how pupils get passed onto us after they have been taught by someone who has just got grade 8 on that instrument themselves relatively recently and assume they must now be qualified to teach, which, more often than not, is just not the case and they have appauling technique and have been taught quite badly. The teaching diplomas need a high level of peformance skills - not just to prove that you can competently play through a concerto, but that you are technically very able. Teaching is not as easy as it looks. A good teacher will have the ability to comfortably merge all the aspects of musicianship - aural, scales, theory, sight reading into one lesson without them all being completely seperate tasks. Learning aural is not just about going out and getting the ABRSM aural test books and just going through them page by page - usually two weeks before the exam...

*seeks cover* Dont get me wrong, there are some teachers who do a good job, but the first few years of learning an instrument are so important, that the person teaching them should be on thier toes looking out for faults before they grow into bigger problems.

I couldn't agree more. I have had many walking disasters of students who have been taught by family friends, parents who have passed some exams or the little lady down the road who is very good and who plays in chapel every week! The parents do not understand why their kids have to re learn so much basic stuff.

A college education and lots of letters after your name are all well and good, but cannot guarantee that you will be a good teacher. A warm engaging personality, enthusiasm for your subject, the ability to communicate well and a willingness to keep learning are also important. Some excellent and inspiring teachers have no formal qualifications.

I think you need both the college education & the personality! If it's not possible for a teacher to go to college (perhaps for financial or family reasons), I think you need to have lessons with a very good, advanced teacher, read as much as possible, attend seminars, masterclasses, courses etc. & aim for a standard that's well above grade 8.

I have often had pupils from unqualified teachers who have given very enjoyable lessons but really don't know enough to teach. The pupils come with very poor technique, appalling fingering & no musical skills & I really need to start them again without demoralising them. This doesn't mean that an unqualified teacher can't be excellent, of course, it's just that so often I've had problems with their ex-pupils.

I've also known well-qualified teachers who put very little effort or care into their teaching, so really I think it's both that's important - training & personality.

That's true, but you also (in my opinion) need a very high standard of technical skill on your instrument, and I have yet to meet a singer who has that at grade 8. Grade 8 is not a professional level qualification, and teachers are (should be) at professional level. It's possible that, with grade 8 AND continuing study that this can be acquired in advance of formal qualifications, hence my partial agreement with what you say. But to get grade 8 you will have overcome technical problems/faults etc. yourself, but it is another thing to detect faults in other people that you have never experienced yourself, and have the knowledge to be able to put them right.
I once asked a newly qualified grade 8 student who said they believed they had had enough lessons now, thank you, and were leaving to start teaching, how they would overcome a nasal sound, or inability to get a good sound in the top register. The couldn't tell me. They were just happy with teaching songs. I'm sorry, but that's not teaching singing and is potentially harmful.

I think it depends on what instrument and level you are teaching. I have been teaching flute beginners since I was 16 and hadn't sat any grade exams when I started. I have been told by many people that I am an excellent teacher and I feel that if you can communicate well with your students as to how to improve tone etc. and are patient then you will succed with them.
I am yet to sit my grade 8 exam, yet I have been teaching for over 5 years and have had many successful students through various grades. Obviously I don't teach students in higher grades (only up to grade 6), but nearly all of my students have done extremely well in their exams (save one, don't get me started!).
I think it also has a lot to do with how good you are with kids/teens, I have talked with university level players whose students haven't done well because they can't express corrections and don't have the patience to help less experienced players.
It sounds like you have had a lot of musical experience, so if you think that you could be a good techer, I say go for it!

Well done, Becci - but I fear you are probably in the minority. Unfortuantely in a thread like this, we can only make generalisations.
There is much more responsibility with teaching a beginner than anyone else, who has their basic technique established.
I once used a piano teacher as an accompanist for grade exams, who told me she taught singing to grade 2, before passing them on so "someone who knew what they were doing". Unfortunately, by this time her "singing students" had learnt many bad habits, because she knows diddly squat about singing technique herself. As I said before - she was just teaching them the songs - anyone can do that, especially pianists, without ever having had a singing lesson in their lives. And as Petrat has said - we are left to pick up the pieces.

I was very wary of this when looking for a singing teacher - and luckily I've found a very highly qualified one who can take me to diploma level and give me the key skills to get there right at the start.

The cost of lessons where we live doesn't vary a great deal from teacher to teacher and so I'd be wanting as highly qualified teacher as I could get for my money. I can understand that not everyone can fit going to college to get a music degree into their lives but I can't understand any arguements against a teacher not having taken the grades themselves. It has been argued on this board that some people don't have the time or funds to do the exams. I do find this a worryingly weak arguement.

I was also teaching before I'd done grade 8 but befroe I began I took the advice of my own teachers and one of the things I asked about was whether I would be likely to pass on any bad habits.

Some people can teach after gr.5 (my sister was offered to start teaching the piano).
Grade 8 is supposed to be a good time - exams out the way etc.

For beginner young ones (4-5 yr olds, anyone with knowledge in the particular instrument should be able to teach this age group).

I agree, Becci you are in the minority. Since moving back to my 'home' town 5 years ago, I have inherited a lot of flute students from a teacher who I did hear in concert. I would have put her playing at a poor grade 5 standard. Yet she was teaching post grade 8. All, except one, (who has since gone to college and is naturally very talented) of about 30 students had exactly the same problems and it has taken a lot of time and effort to put them right. The problems were both technical and musical, and some had scraped passes at grades that frankly I would have failed them in. I started teaching when I was at music college, so had already reached a high level of performance. BUT the teaching was under the supervision of a great teacher who always made me analyse my own playing in preparation for passing things on. My advice would be to keep studying.

Hey, thanks a lot for all your posts! (very active forum)

I am still quite young, so I still have the oppurtunity to learn what courses/skills would be needed.

My old piano teacher taught me many bad habits, I didn't even learn the right height to sit at at the piano, I just learnt now, grade 6...

I haven't been taught how to pedal well, and much of my "skill" (if i can say so) has come from having to study pieces on my own, and whenever I showed him a piece, it would lose all its "emotion" and "feeling".

I now have a great new teacher which is highly recommended, hes quite old, and a bit old fasioned, but he's very techinical with the fingering, and how long a note goes on for, say a crotchet and a quaver played together, my old teacher NEVER pointed out I need to hold it on.

Also, my old teacher teaches many instruments, I think flute, clarinet, piano, cello, classical guitar, and something else.

Is this way too many? I now have him just for classical guitar because I get the idea it's his best, and a piano only teacher.

I think it rather depends on the person if they have 'too many' instruments. I would have thought that he would not have enogh time to practice the seperate skills needed for so many instruments from different familes, whereas if it was say, all woodwind, then a lot of the skills are transferable.

I would think it's better to concentrate on the one instrument rather than being jack of all trades

agreed

this forum is SO active, I only posted 5 minutes ago..

It can be an active place - lots of addicts

(a little bit of good talk)

Maybe this topic should be closed now, or it will become spam!!!

I think finding the opportunity to observe a teacher(s) in a lesson would be very useful. I started teaching before my I had finished my grades but only because I was able to watch my Mum teach on a Saturday morning. I grew up with spending hours in the music shop with her and even as a very young child I was able to see what happens on exam days as she was a representative for the LCM.

I was lucky to be able to be part of her 40 years experience so I'm not sure if I would have started without her. However, I think EPTA is very supportive of beginner teachers as long as you are willing to study and continue aiming for further knowledge and experience - then qualifications will follow. I wouldn't have passed the DipABRSM without lots of teaching behind me.

Go for it and good luck

I really wanted to add my voice to this subject!

I took my Grade 8 a long time ago, when I was 18. I'm now 25 and have been to University. But even with a Degree I knew deep down that I would not be ready to teach to a high level yet; Grade 8 is brilliant as an achievement, but to teach? Some people are good enough to do that but I felt really uncomfortable about it. My education in Music, fortunately, is a very strong one, but teaching is an altogether different experience. I felt - personally - that I wanted to be studying for my teaching diploma at the same time, and that also I had other tutors around for advice. I want to be the best teacher I can be and part of that is knowing your limitations and how to improve, deep down I felt that I was not good enough to teach straight off the bat without studying teaching at the same time. But that is my own personal feeling, I'm not in any way implying that it is the same for everyone!

I would have to be inclined to agree with Petrat on this one though.... one thing I have noticed since getting into teaching privately is just how much competition you have. Studying for a degree is something I will never regret, I chose that path because I wanted an academic grounding. But studying your instrument to a high level at a Music College is sooooooo important these days, you are far more likely to be taken seriously especially as you are competing with people who are just out of music college. This is why I am studying for my Diploma and hoping one day to take an MA in Early Music or on the Recorder. There are many good routes to knowing your instrument, but I'm starting to see that the proof that you can not only teach, but PLAY your instrument to a very high level is very important, whether as an undergrad, postgrad or through diplomas. That and the fact that I live in an area of London where musicians are around every corner!!!

I totally disagree with this. It's not so much high-level instrumental skills but you really do need to know a lot about teaching to work with this age group. I think this is where teaching courses really are so important. I've learnt so much by taking the Mtpp course at Reading University, after already having been to college & taken various part-time courses. I would say to any aspiring teacher - learn as much as you can about teaching, as well as getting your playing to the highest level you can manage.

umm...bevpiano some of the quote is not mine (middle paragraph).
I think what you're saying is true, however for young ones that aren't that serious in becoming anything special, what's so wrong with a little voluntary teaching? (those who play an instrument aren't necessarily going to be good teachers, but they must have some knowledge and their teacher is a good example)

My sister actually had no grades, but was a very able pianist (very musical indeed). Playing stuff of a high level and was asked if she could take someone's grandaughter (4 yr old). Friend of the family - is there really much harm that can be done?

I completely agree with bevpiano:

I am always shocked when I hear people saying:
"Oh, I am grade 8, but I only teach beginners, so I won't do any harm" or, even worse, when they are teaching little children without any particular knowledge in this field of teaching. This is particularly bad, as has already been said, with singers.

The so-called singing teachers who think they can teach just because they passed grade 8 (or sometimes not even that!) should start feeling a bit more responsible (especially since I haven't heared one yet who was vocally far enough to take teaching up at all, the level is still quite low to be totally honest, although some people might not like to hear this)

The harm you can do to a beginner is so much higher than anything else, and it is very hard to get rid of mistakes that were taught at such an early stage. And I am not particuarly keen on "inheriting" those students at some point, because normally it means that you have to start from scratch again. I feel just sorry for those poor souls ...

Taking up teaching first of all has to do with respect and a feeling of responsibility towards the students, it is a serious profession and not an easy way to earn a few bucks ...

I have a flute pupil at the moment and don't charge; I know the family and they wondered if I could take their daughter for some lessons, just until she moves into yr 7 (next yr). She is about 11 yrs old and can just about play the first 8ve of notes on the flute + a few higher ones. I have heard her play and judged what level I think she is at - I am giving her very easy tunes to play and getting her to play long notes etc. I check embouchure, fingerings, posture etc. I don't feel that I am doing a bad job and advice from my own teacher and parents seem to be beneficial to me too. I am due to take a diploma soon on flute and am pretty confident that I can help this flute player along with her flute playing. She plays other instruments i.e trombone, so knows a fair bit already. Are you saying that I am doing her no justice?
I am not a thoughtless person and I do like to give a helping hand when needed.

How do you know who will go on to become something special?
Also According to the OP (and he is not the only one) the teacher may not be a good example.

How to play and how to teach are two different things, and only the former is tested in grade 8. Yes you have to know your instrument well to teach it but what about knowing how to impart that knowledge, plan a curriculum, motivate pupils, work with a whole spectrum of abilities, motivation. The best way to learn those things is probably to get the backing of your own teacher. The ones who think grade 8 qualifies them to teach usually fail because they lack more teaching than playing skills. I mainly teach clarinet but have taught piano and flute despite not even having grade 8 (though play them to about that level), but only because of my teaching experience. I would never have dreamt of this before getting the teaching diploma on clarinet and teaching that for a while.

OK, who are the best football coaches? The best footballers or those who know how to build and motivate a team? No contest.

Peris are often forced into being jack-of-all-trades which doesn't help, and who would have the time or money to do a diploma in six woodwind instruments??? But they would usually be qualified in one of them and be grade 8 on most others.

This sort of opinion causes so much harm to young children who want to learn an instrument. If anyone wants to teach music they must learn about the many different ways it can be taught, in a musical way. Of course interpersonal skills / teaching skills are vital but without specific knowledge as to how to teach MUSIC so much damage can be done by people who just don't know any better. I totally agree with bevpiano that anyone wanting to teach music should do a course and the Mtpp is an excellent option.

We all have to start somewhere and I am the first to admit that while I had the right people skills, I did not teach young beginners at all musically and while they enjoyed their lessons, their musical developement suffered. Since nearly completing the Mtpp course my teaching has been absolutely transformed.

Sadly music teaching in this country is totally unregulated and much damage is done, even at the county arts level where there is little understanding of what good music education looks like. I believe it really is time that some regulation was brought into this area of teaching.

Ditto.

I inherited a flute student from a peri at the local secondary school, who presumably has a certain number of letters to be "allowed" to do such work, or at least a good deal of experience. Student still had some awful technical problems, and although I haven't even done my G8 let alone a diploma, her playing has improved greatly in the less-than-a-year that I have been teaching her.

I would never have started teaching had my own teacher not felt I was up to the job, and I am constantly looking for ways to learn to be a better teacher. Even then, I have not advertised - the only students I've had are those that I have been asked to teach, and who have been (or whose parents have been) happy with my teaching in the long run. I wouldn't set myself up as a teacher or advertise as one.

And as for the criticism of teachers for poor technique (a popular theme on this forum) it is not always the teacher at fault. If the pupil doesn't practise, care about doing things right, or simply doesn't suit the instrument that's hardly anyone else's fault. People are often quick to blame their teachers for poor technique.

Teaching is a two way thing. The pupil has their part to play as much as the teacher.

I did not intend to say that everyone with a formal degree is a good teacher (I had my best singing lessons not at Uni, but with the people with the lowest formal qualifications), neither does having none at all make you a bad one.

But FIRST of all, you have to know your instrument well and be a good musician, not "just" over the level you intend to teach. That just does not work. I could show you tons of people who are teaching and don't even manage to handle their own instrument properly (in my case the voice). And I better shut up before I get my foot in too deep, since I could really get furious about this matter

But even being a good musician does not make you a good teacher. You have to be able to be very abstract and at the same time to "crawl" into each student. It is not easy to understand problems you might have never experienced yourself and STILL have an appropriate solution at hand.

And sorry, no: Young children and beginners are no guinea pigs to try out teaching skills. They are the most vulnerable ones.
If you want to try out teaching skills, you should do it (preferably under supervision) with intermediate or advanced students. The fact that people feel not comfortable in teaching advanced students just shows that they are ot ready, because otherwise they would not lack confidence in working with advanced students. My opinion ...

But this is a subject we probably all could write novels about ...

Hi, what is an OP?

did I help someone make a point?

you are doing well then Sarah .
We all have to remember that some people are better at it than others and you obviously are benefitting your flute student with some jolly good teaching sarahflute.

'High flying' Qualifications don't necessarily mean that a person is a better teacher. It seems that experience is good.

neil, you're of course right here. But I think an experienced teacher can tell the difference and see where the problem lies. And if I tell you that I have students with over 10 year vocal tuition with ONE teacher (with the "right" letters behind his name btw.) who never heard about the function of the diaphragm but who are NOT to silly to pick it up in a couple of hours, then the problem should be clear.

Of course I had students myself that did not practise (and they always thought I don't notice ), but I think that's a difference to being technically misled, which is pretty obvious sometimes ...

How does a 'young one' have any idea about whether or not they are serious about music? When I started the piano at 8 I had no idea that I wanted to make music my career, but an excellent teacher brought the best out of me. Had I gone to someone with no teaching talent I might have been put off, and picked up horrendous problems.

Here, here!
And just to emphasise some other peoples points, no amount of teaching could have prepared me for my Grade 2 10 year male pupil bursting in to tears after one of his pieces on Wed. Luckily the Diploma of Life has been passed and I was able to smooth the waters!

No, of course it isn't. But if a child has bad technique coming from one teacher which they then correct without a problem under another teacher, then...

I had a flute teacher in school who taught me things (as "proper technique") that I then had to unlearn, and some of which I have never EVER met another flute teacher or flautist whose reaction to me telling them some of the things hasn't been "He taught you to do WHAT?", and which I have found in books about flute teaching under the heading of "Never, ever do this..."

Students aren't infallible, but there are teachers out there who fail to teach good technique, or who teach bad technique as correct technique.

Be especially careful in judgments about peris. Those with no experience of peri teaching have little idea what they are up against. They often teach in groups, rarely meet the parents, discipline can be poor, other school acitivties interfere so continuity is lost, they may have diabolical 'teaching' areas, people are often late getting there from class, I could go on. Suffice to say I achieve far more with my private pupils in general than in school. Then of course they may not be specialists in their instrument, and let's face it, flute and clarinet are fairly contradictory in terms of correct technique, so even people aware enough would physically be more adept at one than the other.

I am very aware of what peri conditions are like, Neil, I had lessons with them throughout my school career. I had only a few years of private piano teaching, and less then 8 months private flute lessons in that time. ALL of my other lessons were with peris, most of them were shared, and I am fully aware of the difficulties of being excused from lessons, having to rearrange, rushing from one part of the school to another etc etc. There was still a VAST, VAST range of teaching quality, despite all the teachers working in the same conditions. The school had a high turnover of violin teachers, and so I got experience of a great many teaching styles over 7 years, and in the very same conditions (indeed, all of my violin lessons happened in the same teaching room for 7 years) there were some very good teachers, some indifferent, and some dire.

(And the school where I had peri lessons, is the same school said child attends, thus I have a very good idea of the teaching areas etc, and they are small but relatively well equipped/soundproofed etc)

As far as I am aware, the peri concerned is a flute specialist. The child concerned is conscientious and has come on in leaps and bounds, and I consider myself FAR from an expert in flute or in teaching. Some of the things I have told her as simple basic technique, she had no idea of. She hadn't been taught bad technique, fortunately, as I was, but she hadn't been taught any at all, and her teacher had her learning grade 3 pieces without doing the basic work to bring her up to that standard.

YES, I teach her one on one, and of course it helps that she's relaxed and at home - I have a much easier time than I would as a peri. But 2 years of lessons should include some stuff outside of "learn this tune", even if it's very basic technique or a vaguely correct posture, or some idea of how to go about improving tone, rather than attempting to push a child who clearly wasn't ready into an exam.

I know of at least one peri who has got students through G8 with fantastic marks in group lessons. Not all peris, by any stretch, are bad teachers. And teaching as a peri is simply no excuse for teaching badly.

(I am not intending, in any way, to target peris, some of them are brilliant but pointing out that bad teaching is bad teaching - no matter how many letters a person has or how many years of experience. One of my worst ever teachers, in terms of a bad learning experience rather than being taught bad technique, was my private piano teacher...)

And as for my own experience being taught flute by a peri - there may be excuses for not picking up on technique that well, there may be excuses for not knowing an instrument as well, but there are fairly basic books out there that give good guidance, and a peri who is teaching something that is opposite or wholly incompatible with good technique for the instrument concerned should d*mn well read up on it. This wasn't high level stuff, tongue colour or triple tonguing, or whatever, it was basic tone production and single tonguing. (And I have yet to find, in fact, a teacher who would apply the stuff he taught me as good flute technique to clarinet, or indeed any other wind instrument. I have only ever seen the way he made me tongue derided as how you should never tongue. I assumed for a long time he was a clarinet specialist but that was largely on the basis of his terrible teaching of flute...)

He had a half hour lesson with me, not shared, which was scheduled in free lessons in 6th form, which I always turned up on time for or early, and worked as hard for as I could, lessons given in a soundproofed room with a piano, with a room next door in which I could warm up as I was lucky enough to have lessons in the double practice room... It even had a mirror so I could be shown what it looked like when I was doing stuff right or wrong. So where is the discipline problem with an intelligent, motivated 17 year old? Where is the dreadful teaching area? Nowhere to be found. The conditions he was working under, with me, were such as he would have had had he traveled to my house to teach me, (except that I didn't have a soundproofed room) and better conditions than many other peris or even private teachers have. And yet he managed, in one short school year, to teach me some extremely bad basic technique, teach me almost nothing worthwhile, take all the joy out of my flute playing, and practically kill my motivation stone dead.

There may be an excuse for a teacher not working at an optimum in a shared lesson with lazy students. This wasn't the case. He had all possible advantages of an intelligent student who desperately wanted to be good at the flute being taught on her own in reasonable teaching conditions, and I left his tuition in almost all respects a worse player than when I started. Not because he was a peri, not because I was a bad student, not because he had a "diabolical" teaching area, but because he was NOT a good teacher. And it took me months and months of work to get rid of some of the bad habits, and some of them still bother me now. Excuse him if you can...

The private teacher I had somewhere between 6-8 months of lessons with, didn't get a lesson once a week (she couldn't fit me in that often), so probably an average of 45 minutes per fortnight if I was lucky, only in term time because she's so busy she takes all the school holidays off to stay sane, in a teaching room the same size as at the school, with a worse piano. The main difference was that she had LESS time to give me, and that after traveling 30 minutes to her house, I was invariably more tired than when I had had lessons in a free period at school. Nevertheless, the benefit from the lessons was enormous. Not because she had ideal conditions, but because she was (and is) a very fine teacher who knew what she was doing.

...said teacher also works as a peri and gets great results.....

You know, this is all getting rather scary for someone like me who is new to teaching. I have little experience of teaching but I know it is what I want to do. I am studying for my Diploma but have only just begun advertising for pupils. I have good qualifications but does the fact that I have no experience make me a bad teacher before I even start? This seems to be the vibe I'm getting from some of the posts, how hard it must be to be taken seriously as a private music teacher these days!

Do the very best you can, read up on things, look for guidance from your own teacher(s), read books, and always be open to becoming a better teacher; be enthusiastic, be excited about teaching, love your instrument, care about your students (enough to be kind, and enough to discipline them when necessary) and want to pass on your knowledge to the best of your ability.

The flute teacher I mention, with venom, above, had been teaching flute at the school I was at the whole time I'd been there, since before I was there, and still does last I heard. Didn't stop him from being both seriously lacking when it came to teaching the flute, and deeply deeply unmotivating, sometimes downright mean. Experience and qualifications are all very well but years and letters don't make the teacher.

You know it is what you want to do, and you are intelligent and inquiring and care enough to do the best job you can AND take every opportunity to become better at it... I'd say that's a pretty good start. That's the kind of teacher that I want, and that I appreciate. The letters and the years will come with time. The enthusiasm and the love of what you're doing, even though some of the lessons may drive you bananas - they are priceless.

I'm sorry aspiringmusicteacher. We all have to start somewhere and you sound a very consciencious teacher. Just go for it. It's been said many times qualifications do not make the best teachers. Do try and get support from your own teacher, they should be only too pleased to help. I would never have started without the support from my own teacher at the time.

In answer to other posts, being taught by a peri is not the same as working as one, just like a few appointments with your GP doesn't tell you what doctors go through in their regular work. I know that anything else I write will just be stormed/flamed back at so I'll step out this discussion. It's possible to disagree with other posters, but honestly.

Yes, of course it is different, Neil - but like I said, being a peri is not excuse for being a bad teacher, AND I am well aware of and was taught in the conditions that the peris at my local school teach in. So I know exactly what the teaching rooms are like etc, because I have first hand knowledge of it (and have had a few friends do peri work there) - so none of this "diabolical teaching areas", because they aren't at that school. Also, in my case of being badly taught, your list of things including lack of discipline, and students not turning up, simply DID NOT apply. I always did turn up, and I worked hard.

If you read the end of my post you'll find that the private teacher who actually taught me well had, if anything, WORSE conditions in some ways, and certainly less lesson time with me, than the peri - AND she teachers as a peri and routinely gets great results. Fact is, if the bad conditions made it impossible to be good teachers, then how the blazes could my teacher get students through grade 8 with distinction in shared school lessons? Lessons at her house in terms of space and equipment were exactly the same as lessons at school, except a lot less convenient. The quality of her teaching was not in her surroundings or conditions.

So don't "honestly" at me, because "don't judge a peri, they have it difficult" is no excuse for some of the shoddy teaching that goes on. Being a peri is no excuse (and there are some excellent peris who teach well despite conditions, so how it can be OK to teach badly just because one is a peri escapes me), just as being a private teacher is no guarantee of being any good. A good teacher may not always get such great results or get them as quickly at school as they do privately, but good teaching will out even if it's more difficult.

That's the problem - particularly with singing, It's so important that the teacher CAN sing. Much of teaching singing is demontrating technique and sounds. It the teacher's top notes are strained, they obviously don't know how to produce good sound, so how can they teach it if they can't do it themselves?
Since I've been hiring halls and inviting families and friends to student concerts, I've made a point of singing myself. I was pleased to have the comment "at least we know junior is in safe hands". It's so important for the parents/spouses/fee payers to hear for themselves what the teacher can or can't do.
If you've ever heard a teacher and their students sing, it's surprising how much like the teacher the students sounds. I remember after a concert once, an audience member said to me - I can hear so-and-so all over again.

I agree with you there Neil.
I've seen it happen and also experienced it first hand.
I don't believe that if it's not working it's the teacher's fault ALL the time. There are those who, whatever you do and however skilled the teacher, refuse to take notice and will do what they want regardless.
It's amazing how much effort sometimes goes into not learning something.

Sarah, your incessant trolling on this thread is completely unnecessary, especially when you are in no position to debate this issue. Fine if you disagree, but to keep coming back and stoking the flames when you've already made your point, in such a strong tone, is inviting strong responses. You are going by your own experience and a few other exceptional students. It's only when you start teaching you realise your own experiences do not reflect the job under normal circumstances.

To clarify trolling, from the FAQs



This is not the only thread where you have behaved this way to me and other members. If it continues you will be reported and dealt with accordingly. You may have different views, we all do, but there are ways and means of expressing these. Please think in future.

Hang on a minute, Sarah has made 5 posts on this thread, not all to the same point - hardly "incessant trolling", Neil.

Of course it isn't the teacher's fault all the time. Similarly, it isn't the student's fault all the time, and the student isn't in a position to know if a teacher is teaching bad technique. So teacher needs to do their utmost (and most, I am sure, do) to make sure they're teaching the basics right, as best they can, as best the student will accept, to the best of their knowledge and ability. My gripe is with teachers who don't do that, or who actually teach what is demonstrably bad technique and insist that it's right. That is dreadful teaching. It would be better to teach more slowly/expect slower progress than to allow or even enforce dreadful technique. As I previously said, there are some excellent peris who teach really well despite conditions, so how it can be OK to teach badly just because one is a peri escapes me. There's a vast difference between not getting results as quickly/having a more challenging time vs just teaching badly.

Neil: I don't believe I have been trolling. You have ignored perfectly valid points of mine and dismissed them offhand, I have defended my view, you have decided I'm trolling. As Sue has said, 5 posts is hardly "incessant trolling". If you believe I have been trolling, then your recourse is to the mods, not to me.

I would agree with Neil.Clarinet. I have just left a local secondary school after 2 years of frustration and difficulties. I tried to teach to the best of my ability, but was constantly scuppered by pupils forgetting lessons, working around exams and outings, poor teaching rooms that were sometimes locked when I tried to enter, poor support from agencies, only 10 lessons per term.. I could go on and on but you get my drift. I tried to keep the standard of my teaching up but it can be difficult when you are feeling harrassed and demoralised. Very different from teaching in the comfort of my own home!