The day before the online closing date for this term I had a phone call from a mother who wanted me to enter her daughter for grade 5 theory this term. Note that I'd never met these people and didn't know what the daughter could do. She's year 7.

I explained that it wasn't possible to put a student in for an exam without being fairly certain of her capability - mum a bit disappointed but I stuck to my guns (fortunately) and offered a meeting a couple of days later which they accepted.

Amicable meeting - mum and daughter both very pleasant and seem to understand - albeit reluctantly - points I make and that the next possible date is November. Daughter is learning piano with a local music service, has done all grades to 5 and started on pieces for gr6 (aagh). Has done some theory in classes provided but isn't finding it easy. Presumably if the centre were willing to enter her for the exam this term they would have done so.

I offer to book in a few lessons and see if I can move the child forward in time for the autumn term. They accept this and we book three lessons to the end of May.

First lesson goes fairly well, except that pupil seems to know very little. I tell myself that perhaps she's better in a written context than in answering questions verbally, and anyway it's the first lesson and she's bound to feel a bit "put on the spot". I have prepared a checklist of things I want to know, and I apologise for asking so many questions, but I need to start to build up a picture.

Well most of the things on the checklist are not known. We can name notes on the stave and leger lines if we think about it for a few minutes. Counting intervals is a mystery - not talking major or minor here but simply counting lines and spaces on the stave. Note value names are muddled and most not known - so we can't do anything that needs fluent use of value names. Time signs are a complete mystery. We look through a grade 3 sample paper and talk through some of the questions, but it's clearly way too far ahead of knowledge.

I compromise by giving pupil a grade 2 paper to have a go and see how much she can do. Leave what you can't do - don't worry, ask me next time and it will give us some useful points to start with. I also write down some note-value names and egs in an ms book to be memorised.

Second lesson comes round - pupil is dropped off. She hasn't brought any of the things that I gave her for homework, but she brings out a grade 5 workbook and a loose pad of ms paper. I'm a bit thrown by this as I'd wanted to spend the lesson working on things that had foxed her on the grade 2 paper. I check what I'd noted from last time and ask some questions based on the things I'd suggested she memorise. Nothing is known. She has attempted some questions in the first chapter of the grade 5 workbook (irregular time signs) but clearly hasn't a clue and all are way out. We practise counting through a few of the bars in these exercises so she feels that we're doing something useful - but since she 's not clear what a quaver is, or what a dot does, it's hard going and not really where I want to be working.

OK it's early days. If she genuinely couldn't do the gr2 paper I'd rather know - but she claims to have done it, just not brought it. I have a feeling I only have a very small part of the picture here. I'd like to ask her to play something for me - to help build up another part of the picture - but since she has lessons with another teacher it seems slightly shaky ground. Mum picked her up and I mentioned that I'd not been able to do what I'd planned because no homework was forthcoming. It felt a bit mean - but I had a hunch that the mum was only partly in the picture and felt we should start as we meant to go on - I am not starting at grade 5, I am filling in the gaps first. I feel that in fact we are really working at around grade one level, although I'm reluctant to make it quite so obvious, and given a little learning at home I feel we could skip some of the basic stuff and start working at around gr3.

I'm interested to see what happens next time. Child seems very pleasant but says very little. I double checked with her that she is in fact NOT already entered for the exam this term - and she agrees she's not - but I can't help wondering.

aargh. Think I may yet regret taking this one on. I think mum's agenda is to get through the practical grades.

Doesn't sound good.
And how on earth has she managed to get grade 5 practical without some of those basic concepts I wonder?
I had a year 10 boy once who said that the school considered he was about grade 6 theory.
Managed to get him up to grade 4 before he stopped lessons and was not happy to hear that the school had entered him for the grade 4 theory exam! Was good to hear that he got a distinction though.

Of course it is. When the AB insist on having Grade 5 theory before entering grade 6 practical, it's not hard to see the connection.

I agree with Sbhoa though, how on earth did she get grade 5 practical without the theoretical knowledge? It might be informative to look at the results sheet - I'll bet she did abysmally in aural tests and sight reading but passed having learned the pieces and excercises by rote. It's fairly clear from your post that she can't read music, if at all then at least not well.

It seems to me that you need to talk to the parents and point out that, in theory terms, it's catch up time: A complete ignorance of theory such as this girl seems to demonstrate, can be bypassed up to a certain point, and the point is now. Like a lot of subjects where passing the exam requires knowledge, that knowledge needs to be learned, learning requires work and there really is no substitute for working. Unless she does the work, and provides evidence of that work, merely attending the lessons is a waste of your time and their money. If you set homework again and it's not done, politely decline to continue the arrangement. Let them waste their money somewhere else if they want, but don't waste your time.

Having said which, a school friend of mine only started with practical exams by taking grade 8 piano (he got a good distinction aged 11 and passed his diploma a little over two years later at the age of 14!). He only needed the theory exam to do the practical as well but he was (and is) musically brilliant so sailed through it. The day I sat my grade 6 theory he sat grade 8. If I remember correctly it was nominally a 2 hour paper. He left after an hour and still got a distinction! For the past 20 years or so he has been a musical director for a living and composed the music for a show in the West End last year, so I suppose I forgive him!

agree with Sbhoa though, how on earth did she get grade 5 practical without the theoretical knowledge? It might be informative to look at the results sheet - I'll bet she did abysmally in aural tests and sight reading but passed having learned the pieces and excercises by rote.

My thoughts fairly exactly. Interested in others' responses though.

I think turning up with no work done and no materials at the second lesson says everything you need to know about the attitude. If you are going to get anywhwere with this girl, you need to know exactly where you are starting from and go on from there. It seems you've established that she basically knows nothing, so the only thing you can do is start with grade 1.

If she is prepared to work hard at it, getting through the grades shouldn't take too long, but you are going to end up tearing your hair out if this isn't sorted, and soon. Is it worth a phone call midweek before the next lesson to check that she is getting on with the work set and will bring it to next lesson? - might save another wasted trip, and give you a chance to talk to parents again. If they are not realistic about her current level of knowledge it will be very difficult for anyone to help her.

How about letting her do the grade 2 paper in front of you? I recall my ex- teacher doing that to some of her new students to determine which level they were in.

I'm sorry, but there are just too many alarm bells ringing and red lights flashing in my brain when I read the original poster's remarks. I'd say, stay well clear. It sounds like the classic case of a parent who believes that throwing money at a problem will somehow alleviate the situation. If there's no real will to work or too succeed, and far less joy in music making (it would seem) they why put yourself through it. If you've been told some half-truths or worse about the child's recent level of achievement, then there's nothing to be gained by taking on someone else's reject. Her attitude is not likely to have changed; she may be using you as a last ditch attempt to prove someone else wrong (i.e. trying to imply that the previous school / teacher should have entered her for the Grade V).

It sounds like the classic case of a business woman mother or else one who is working in banking etc. who believes in getting return for money invested. You and I know that it doesn't work that way in music - practical or theory. There has to be a love for the subject, a willingness to succeed and straight, direct communication between teacher-pupil-parent. If none of these essentials apply, then don't take her on a permanent basis.

LR

And perhaps having the mother sit in while you're doing the Grade 2 paper, so that she can see how far from Grade 5 level her daughter is?

I'm afraid I would steer clear of this one..unless child/mum agreed to actually sit for a lower grade theory exam (3 possibly in this case) before going in for Gde 5. We will soon have the long Summer holiday coming up, and if like some of mine, this girl cancels for the whole summer, there's no way she would be ready for gde 5 in November. You wouldn't be sure she would be studying for it while she's off..particularly if she hasn't done the work you've already set.

I would be asking her to bring in the Gde 2 work for the next lesson and if she doesn't I would be saying thanks but no thanks.

Just a random thought - is it worth being really blunt, having a list of all the things the child needs to know with the very few things she does know ticked off? Give the mum an idea of how far she is from this standard. She may genuinely not realise what a lot of stuff needs learning.

You poor thing Maggie! I've been in this situation before, and had second thoughts from the moment the student turned up to her first lesson. On the phone she told me that she wanted to study theory, and had done the Grade 2 exam- no worries. Comes to her first lesson, admits that her teacher has put her in for Grade 5 theory (in 2 months time), and now the teacher is saying that Gr5 theory is too difficult for her to teach, and that she needed to find another teacher

The student couldn't understand why we started working through Grade 3 & 4 work before starting on Gr5! Needless to say, she failed the exam (although to her credit, she worked very hard and only failed by a few marks). I was honest with her straight up, and said that she (or her teacher) were putting unrealistic expectations on her, and that anyone in that situation would find it hard to pass the exam.

Like Maggie, I really did regret taking her on as a student! (until after the exam was over, of course!)

Totally agree with all the answers given.

In addition Maggie, I have the funniest feeling that mum may well have known full well that daughter wouldn't be bringing the grade 2 theory.

It seems very brash for a young girl to decide to turn up with something completely different, and quite cheeky. I can picture the scene at home..."Why are you doing that? Doesn't she know she's supposed to be teaching you grade 5 etc... Next week take the grade 5 book with you...." assuming she knows the best way to proceed.

Just a thought, but I sense you may end up having a conflict with this woman

edit: Another though.. Imagine if you hadn't had the sense to ask to meet the girl, and had gone ahead and entered her, as per the mum's suggestion? I'll bet you would have blamed for the inevitable fail!

How do you know she actually HAS grade 5? You haven't seen any proof - she may have failed it, or it may be a figment of Mum's imagination!

Thanks everyone - that's all most helpful. I had a feeling that she hadn't just forgotten the gr2 paper.

I did point out to mum just as they left that really we were working at about grade one level, and that she hadn't brought what I'd set her. I wondered if I'd been a bit hard on her (telling mum etc - after all it's very early days) and I suppose it's just possible she had genuinely forgotten to bring the paper - I just didn't get that impression. But your responses have kind of confirmed my gut feeling.

She has school exams this week - so a great reason for not much achieved on the theory front. However, she did claim to have done the paper I gave her, which, if true, means that she doesn't still have it to do I don't imagine she will bring it back at all if it's not done - perhaps I need to get another copy of the same paper !

No, I don't have any proof that she's actually passed the practicals. I seem to remember she couldn't tell me what sort of marks she got ... always makes you wonder ! Her piano teacher has probably been tearing hair out for years - it would be interesting to compare notes.

Mum actually doesn't have great English ability, so communication is not that easy, although pupil seems to be proficient enough - my impression is that she was born here. Certainly I will need to see some work next weekend if we are to continue. (I have another student waiting for a Saturday place - !) I don't think sitting for a lower grade is going to be acceptable to them - mum was already put out that she would not now be able to take grade 6 next term. "but she needs to have all practical grades done before gcse's start". Hmm - your plan, not mine! I have no problem aiming for 5 next term if the child will work with me, but I can't do it on their terms.

Thanks again. Will let you know how it goes.

Good luck with it, maggiemay!

Thank you !

^What everyone said!



I have to say one thing I find most frightening about this is the fact that it is quite possible to (apparently, anyway) pass Grade 5 with this sketchiest of theoretical knowledge... .

The other aspect that makes my blood run cold is the mother's blithe insistence on 'having all the practical grades before GCSEs'.

Where on earth is the love of music in all this???

Gah.

Best of luck maggie - let us know how lesson 3 goes...

Have just read this.. I wouldn't exactly call it 'slight warning bells', Maggie.. More like a great flashing red light accompanied by a siren. Hope she brings the paper this week! If not, I'd agree with whoever said give her one to do in the lesson.. and make yourself a cuppa.
If you have others waiting for the slot, it should be easy to let her go. Myself, I can feel some drastic dead-wooding happening at the end of this term.

Do you have copies of G2, 3, 4, and 5, theory books? If you do, you could invite Mother in to view the books and explain that they build up in terms of knowledge - you could probably explain this sufficiently well with the hard evidence in front of her.

It sounds like a very tall order that she achieves G5 by November unless she realises how much work will be involved, but I think she may have to be an exceptional Y7 to achieve this.

I think your gut instinct about the family is probably right but (speaking as a parent) you can't really blame a parent for not understanding what it takes or where their child currently sits. You can blame them for being unprepared to take your expert advice or for believing that simply by setting a target - grade 8 in year 10 - or whatever, it will automatically happen.

In fairness I think the way to go is at the next lesson either mark the grade 2 stuff if she brings it or to have her attempt a paper in the lesson. Maybe also get her to "sight clap" a rhythm or two and sight sing a couple of simple intervals (she is supposed to have done grade 5 aural and sight reading after all). At the end of that you have clear grounds to talk to the mother and say what level the child is at and discuss what can reasonably be achieved and what it will take to do it, including whether you can teach over the summer holidays if they want you to etc.

You can perhaps agree that you can review progress with mother at the end of term and that the grade to be entered for November will be decided at the start of next term dependent on how much progress has been made this term and over the summer, but that, at the moment, you would expect it to be perhaps grade 3 or maybe 4. You could say that she will need to be able to get at least 60% (you choose the figure) in a past grade 5 paper in September to put the entry in. You need to be firm and set reasonable expectations (pehaps grade 4 November, Grade 5 march if things go well), and let them go if they can't accept your assessment at this stage.

Best of Luck

Maybe also get her to "sight clap" a rhythm or two and sight sing a couple of simple intervals (she is supposed to have done grade 5 aural and sight reading after all).

That is a point about the aural - she didn't seem to know what an interval was. At all. I could ask about the aural and how she found it ...

Yes - I have been thinking about how I play next lesson. I think I must major on grade 2 stuff - until she proves she can get through a gr2 paper with reasonable marks and understanding of what's involved.

I'll need to look briefly at the gr5 workbook because I asked her to correct the ex that she'd guessed at ( I showed her how to count up the beats, and the meaning of the time signs is given at the top of the page - it'll be interesting to see how much of this higher level she's taken on board.) .
But otherwise I think we should put the gr5 book on one side - politely ignore! - for the moment.

Yes - I have other workbooks I think and could show the mother - if there is chance. I think mum's view is that music is part of the general education - no blame there as far as it goes - and Cyrilla I have no idea but I think next week I must ask the girl what she enjoys about music and what sort she likes playing. It would be all too easy for this to turn into an earnest "get grade 5 at all costs" exercise. If the whole thing falls apart and we part company, she can perhaps remember me as someone who was interested, and not just someone who was put out when she didn't bring her homework !

She really does sound like she's around grade 1 theory level and I'm glad you were able to point this out to the mum. Does the child know this? If she's aware, and willing to work through the material systematically, I would probably keep her, but it doesn't sound like the pair of them are willing to tackle this logically or take your advice. She is also unlikely to be ready for grade 5 theory this year.

A year ago I took on a grade 3 piano student, working towards grade 6 violin at school, and her mum explained she HAD to get grade 5 theory in November as her violin teacher planned to have her do grade 6 in March. However, the girl is really motivated and keen to learn, had just begun the grade 3 theory book and is doingGCSE music. We agreed that I would only enter her for Grade 5 theory in November if she had completed gr. 3 and 4 by the entry date and was working on gr.5 by then. Lots of extra lessons throughout the summer resulted in merits in the gr. 3 and 4 practise papers, and a gr.5 merit in November. She also achieved a pass in her gr. 3 piano the same month and did well in her mocks; she passed gr. 6 violin in March and is now doing her GCSEs. So it can be done, but only with dedication and a willingness to be taught!

It sounds as if you, at least, are being very sensible about this, Maggie. Stick to your guns and trust your gut feeling.

Thanks to all for replies and messages so far. Elliewelly - yes, that's the kind of thing I had in mind. I reckoned if her general understanding was similar to what (I hope) a grade 5-6 pupil of mine's would be - we'd be in with a chance.

Well - an update. Theory child arrives this morning. Surprise surprise - theory papers are lost.


OK - we'll look at a grade 2 paper in the lesson and see how much of it you can tackle.

Time signs not understood. We look at a 2/4 example and she asks if it's 3/4.
Triads - what's a triad? Clefs misread (ok maybe just careless). Intervals partly correct and partly not. Notes of half the value - question not understood. We didn't get on to the general question or the scales.

I have now laid my cards on the table and suggested they give it some really hard thought - I am only prepared to work with this pupil if we can start more or less from the beginning.

We talked about grades - yes - it seems she starts work for the next grade as soon as - I needn't go on, need I? I discussed with her what kind of pieces she likes playing and suggested that there is much more to music than taking exams. I stated to mum that doing grades as the main aim appeared to be achieved at the expense of basic understanding. I tried to express some sympathy for the child- it must be really hard for you. I made it clear that I am not confident about reaching grade 5 in one term.

Have asked them to go home and think about it.

Wow well done you! I bet you feel better for that.

I wonder if you will ever see her again? Let us know if you do!

" Think I may yet regret taking this one on. I think mum's agenda is to get through the practical grades."

You are a saint for taking on/continuing with this student. From time to time, we all encounter a parent who 'just doesn't get it'. They firmly believe that pushing their kids through exam after exam, in subject after subject, or (worse yet...) competition after competition, is the definition of successful education. Somehow the idea never sinks in that examinations are a means, not an end. They are a fabulous tool, if approached with the correct motivations.

I encountered one family who had their only child after about twenty years of marriage. Their hobby previous to that was breeding and showing labrador retrievers, with a wall full of trophies to proudly display. They are now working on a wall full of trophies produced by their daughter--it's eerie. They resented any attempts to lead the child to embrace the idea of learning to read music, and learn literature from the printed page. The child placed in the final six entrants of a national competition, and the father was enraged because she didn't take home first prize. At that point, long overdue, the teacher sent them on their way.

I'd suggest you run the other direction from this student. There is no 'upside' here, and you are too good a soul to be abused by this particular mother.

Best wishes!

This should be written in large letters and displayed above the door of all educational establishments, whether a large comprehensive or a small private teaching practice...

A lovely post, abrsmtn, and to the forums!

Hmmmm, not sure I agree there: There is a very unlikely upside and that is that you get through to them. Oh look, there's a flying pig outside my window - Kosher too!

Quite why I still believe in miracles, I don't really know!

I disagree with the above, Maggiemay. I think you are in no danger of being abused by this mother because you are doing exactly the right thing. At least the last lesson held no surprises for you, and you may succeed in getting through to parent and child that music is not just for exams and that there are teachers out there who refuse to propel pupils through grades as a means to an end. In addition, pupil is Y7 at present, she may see the light and have discussions at home about the direction she wants to go herself.

You can only press on as you are doing in the hope that light dawns on them. If it doesn't then you can simply be happy that you have done everything you can, and no doubt pupil will move on to pastures new.

Thanks again for advice / support / votes of confidence.

You know what bothers me most about this ? Piano teacher is apparently continuing to push on with grade 6 pieces. The pupil showed me her piano book yesterday (briefly) and said she had been given a second piece to learn but that she didn't understand what she was doing with it.

Ha, a Kosher flying pig ... lovely image!
I fear you are right, but the optimist in me hopes that the light does dawn, and the pupil doesn't move on. A caring adult, like Maggie, could do wonders for this child's musical life. Wouldn't it be wonderful if she is able to discover through this experience that learning is more than passing exams; and that music is more than three pieces a year.

(The realist in me tells me not to hold my breath!)

Well - it's over a week since I last saw little miss theory - and no contact from her or her family in the meantime - so I have now offered her slot to another student.

Thanks again everyone for advice, support, kind remarks etc etc

Perhaps she just had the half term week off? I wonder if she will turn up as if nothing is wrong this week.

Would I be right in guessing this student is from somewhere in the Far East? And has probably been taught (badly) by something approximating to the Suzuki method? The enormous gaps in her theory while being (apparently) at Grade 5 level with her playing could be explained by having been taught - especially in the early stages - by a method that doesn't involve sight-reading.

I was approached by a very ambitious family from the Far East a while back. The child (aged 10) thought he was at about Grade 5 level and wanted me to teach him from there. I asked him to play me a scale of C just to check his ability and he didn't have a clue!!! I then got out a Grade 3 piece (appropriate sight-reading for Grade 5) and he found it really hard to play. I then asked him to play me something he'd been working on (he'd brought a swathe of music) and he played something with a sort of virtuosic-sounding technique but all out of tune and madly inaccurate. I was completely lost for words.

A couple of weeks later (before his first lesson with me) they decided to settle for convenience on the peri at his school - my relief was boundless. I understand this teacher is now being pressurised to teach him at her home in half-term and all through holdiday periods, something she doesn't normally do! I would imagine Maggie was similarly expected to teach this child through half-term.

I also taught a South Korean girl for a few months - she'd been drilled in a Suzuki-like method for a couple of years lately but seemed to have no understanding of the music she was playing so teaching her was a bizarre experience. I have a feeling there are Suzuki-like teachers out there pandering to the wishes of very ambitious mothers; the children are forced to practise for hours but develop no real love of music of their own. This is in no way a criticism of the genuine Suzuki method, which in the hands of a good, well-trained teacher, can be utterly fantastic.

Anyway, this sounds like a bit of a culture gap, Maggie, re initial training and expectations. However, another thought occurs - why doesn't her piano teacher just put her through TG Grade 6 where you don't need Grade 5 theory? Also, have you asked to hear her play? Now that would be interesting - either she's quite good but has learnt it all by rote (the inability to recognise intervals doesn't suggest good aural skills) or she's like this boy I nearly taught - all fur coat...

Good luck whichever way it goes, Maggie - I feel for you.

That's a thought! although I did make it clear that we had reached the end of the initial "trial" booking, and that I wanted them to discuss what we'd done so far and call me when they decided whether to continue or not.

(well I think I did - you can never be entirely sure, can you !)

Violinia. yes on a number of counts, although I'm fairly sure the child has lived here for most if not all of her life. At least I have lived in the Far East and have some experience of different attitudes to education.

She talked about two piano teachers, one private from about age 5 for perhaps two years, and the current one at the local music centre. I never did hear her play - but I asked her what she was learning and she showed me her grade 6 book and admitted she was a bit lost. To be honest I did not risk rocking that particular boat too much, as it was clear they were dissatisfied with the piano set-up, and I was slightly reluctant to get involved in helping with that - I could see all kinds of unethical possibilities arising!

Aha! Yes you're right about the dangers of unethical practice, but you could always ask her to play something for you if your piano's in the room where you teach her theory, but then just nod and smile afterwards while keeping tight-lipped but having quietly garnered more information about her musicality (or lack of). Just a thought!