I have two daughters who both play violin. Older one at an intermediate level, younger one who has only just turned 12, and taking her grade 5 this coming month, but plays at a higher level, and at present is still on a 3/4 size instrument as she is still quite small, but obviously, the big growth spurt imminent considering her age. Problem is, her teacher has mentioned in passing, that when she moves up to a full size instrument, it would be good to consider a new instrument costing approx 3-4 thousand pounds. She has a French antique instrument at the moment which sounds good, but obviously, a full size instrument is going to be more expensive, just because of size as well as the quality being taken into consideration.

Obviously the teacher does not know of our financial situation, otherwise I am sure she would not have suggested this, and as she is playing pieces of grade 6 and 7 level, I can see that she is now in the advanced category, and needs a better instrument accordingly to carry her further. Big problem is, we simply can't afford it, and can't see us affording it in the future either.

I thought she was probably exagerating at first, but having done a little homework, and calling around a few suppliers, it seems that those instruments of around £2,000 and under are only suitable for intermediate players, and all of this of course is without taking into consideration a bow.

I feel quite inadequate in knowing that I could potentially hold her back, any suggestions???

How do teachers usually cope with kids playing cheaper instruments either of the string type or other. Do you think these instruments hold them back?

I don't know anything about string instruments but what about looking for a 2nd hand instrument rather than new?

a plus point, is that some 2nd hand inst. are in great condition and the price you pay is very approachable

Agreed. One of my pupils just got an amazing deal on a second hand flute - worth about £2500 new and she bought it for £500. She nearly bought a new flute for a similar price which had a silver headjoint - for the same money she now has a far superior instrument which is solid silver throughout apart from the keywork.

It doesn't always work that way with string instruments. If the teacher is happy with a new instrument (as in made in the last 20 years) then second hand is fine. But when teachers of string instruments are asking you to pay a few thousand it is often because they are taking it as read that an old instrument is required and new will not do.

Wow!!! Bargains

If you are in the UK have you thought of applying to Benslow Music Trust for a suitable instrument on loan?? They loan instruments out to promising young students whose parents are in the situation you are in.

While it is inevitable your daughter will move on from a 3/4 size violin, an imminent growth spurt isn't always what happens, she may just turn out to be a petite person - how big/tall are you, her father, grandparents etc.? This can often be used as good indication on the potential size of your children.

There are lots of good new instruments around that would be very adequate for taking Grade 8+ which wouldn't cost the earth. A Gliga Gama for example, would make an ideal instrument and won't set you back more than a few hundred pounds. I have a student of mine playing on a Gliga Gems and I also bought myself a Gliga Gama 15 inch viola, which I am very happy with.

I have a Gliga Gama viola and have no doubts it would see me through G8 if I was good enough to take it!

Benslow is another great option - have known several people have fantastic instruments from there.

Look at the Musicians Benevolent fund web site - they have a 'funding wizard' for students, with links to relevant awards. Also the BBC fame academy site has the instrument bursaries award open at the moment, 11-15 year olds. (This closes soon). Two of my students received these last year, so it's definately worth a go.
There is quite a bit of money out there for young musicians, some taking into account parental income, some not.

I'm having this problem too.
I'm looking for a new cello, but one which will potentially allow me to have a career in music is eye-wateringly expensive - the only one so far that I've fallen in love with was £200,000. (and yes, it was left Very Firmly at the shop).
Stringed instruments are just so expensive! I have not yet found anything decent under fifteen grand for the standard I'm at
I'll just keep buying those lottery tickets, I suppose.

Don't feel inadequate - Your daughter, through not having a top quality instrument, will always be striving to get her tone/fingerwork the best that it can be. Having an excellent instrument can make one lazy about tone etc. - I've been there, done that, got the T-Shirt. If you don't give your daughter a top notch instrument now, the difference will be all the more astounding when/if she does get one. Also, at 12 I would have thoguht she is a little young to have a 3/4 thousand pound instrument - My parents were hesitant about getting me a £2000 one, and I'm a sensible 15 year old! You won't hold her back, by not buying her an amazing instrument at this stage.

Thanks for your input, to clarify things though, when the teacher suggested a new instrument, she meant an instrument specifically made for her by a professional luthier. I think she felt, if I were going to invest in another antique instrument, and knowing I would probably need to spend in excess of £2,000 to get one to meet her demands, then I would get more she felt for my money having one specifically made for her. I can see where she is coming from, as, the way things stand, we are just going to have to trade in the violin every 12 months or so, as she progresses, each time, putting a bit extra in the pot until we get an instrument which meets her final demands as a player, or until she can pay for her own of course.

I think, in general, string instruments seem to be in a different league to some of the instruments out there. Firstly, the older the instrument is, the more expensive it seems to get and secondly, you seem to be expected to spend about a third again of the cost of the violin on the bow! The sky really is the limit!!! (I have seen just bows in a local shop costing in excess of £25,000!!! - I know she doesn't need one of these just yet but still, all that for a bit of wood and horesehair - go figure???)

I have also noticed that when you start progressing into 4th, 5th, 6th position etc. a cheaper instrument does not appear to rise to the challenge so to speak, as well as projection being poorer. She does have to play solos on a regular basis, so this is important. My daughter, has also expressed an interest in persuing music as a possible career choice, if she can reach the acquired standard to perform, so obviously we feel under pressure to try and give her the best opportunity to fulfill her ambition, as any parent would. I know this all sounds a bit pie in the sky for a twelve year old, but she is mature for her age, started playing piano also 18 months ago to gain a more rounded musical knowledge (another expensive instrument we got into debt for) but has also reached a very good grade 5 standard in this, so don't want to ruin her chances.

I have looked at some funding available out there, but the majority of it is earnings related, often in comparison to government linked handouts, so often, only those who are single parents, on benefits etc. etc. get the best out of these. We unfortunately are on that ever important boarderline, where you don't get a penny!

I can't help but feel a little frustrated at the fact when you start reaching a certain standard, it appears, the only ones that appear to have a fighting chance in what is a difficult profession to be successful in, are those families that have a bit of money behind them (no offence meant for those that have money) but places like NCO and NYO are notoriously full of middle class kids, who undoubtedly deserve to be there, but I therefore feel we are not all on a level playing field to begin with. Money obviously can't buy you natural ability, but it can buy you a better bow to allow your technical ability to grow faster, and pay for longer instrumental lessons. I just wonder if us parents were aware of the pitfalls further down the line financially, whether we would let our kids go down this road at all, knowing we had not necessarily got the means to finish the journey.

Ooops, seem to have waffled on a bit as well as going slightly off the track. Think I may just have a go on that Lottery this week, who knows!

Not sure if this is true anymore, but I had to get a loan to get a wooden descant and treble recorder when I was working for my Grade 8. I got the loan through the Music Sound Foundation I think.... who are now part of EMI but they weren't back then. They might be worth a try?

Rant mode on.

This sort of thing really annoys me. I took grade 8 on a Poller (present RRP about £250), albeit with a better bow and a full professional set up. I know someone else who did Grade 8 on a zeller which is slightly cheaper. Before I injured my shoulder I was seriously contemplating dipLCM on a Gliga Gama - as it came from the workshop - and I would have passed. I did Grade 8 flute on a battered old Boosey and Hawkes emperor and Grade 8 recorder on a plastic aulos. I did my LGSM on Moeck Rottenburghs (which are good factory instruments but not handmade). The bottom line is that the examiner is not judging the instrument but the player.

£2000 will not get you a luthier made instrument, except perhaps by special order from China or Romania. I've played a £6000 luthier made English instrument (admittedly possibly in need of a good set up since it was a few years old) and I honestly wouldn't have chosen it in preference to anything much beyond a Stentor 2, it was that bad. I own a luthier made German viola from 1978, it cost me £1200 back in 1984. It has a proper professional set-up and is of course thoroughly played in. I like it . But whether it plays better than a £435 Gliga Gama depends entirely on what strings are on which instrument. It's got a signature and it's German. Those are two factors that put the price up.

There is a price point at which you have to vastly increase the amount of money you spend to get a noticeable difference in the tone on the instrument. I am not convinced that the time to do that, for most people, is grade 5 or age 12! Save it until you know whether or not your daughter is going to be going to conservatoire - and let's face it, the great majority of players don't do that. If she ends up as one who does, THAT'S the time to be looking at spending a 5 figure sum, in my somewhat less than humble opinion!

Rant over.

Take this over to the strings forum, you will get more response over there.

Liz

Nope. My instrument is bad

My teacher is going to find me a cheap, but good quality violin for me over half-term. IF that doesn't work, then my mum'll have to look for one.

Yep, even the teacher agrees that a Stantor is too bad for a grade 4 player.

Ouch! I take on board a lot of points mentioned above, but her teacher was suggesting a sum more around the £4,000 mark to have a violin made, and it would have been from a luthier she has used before and comes with many recommendations. I think if possible she thought it would be a good idea to have an instrument to grow with her and allow her to develop her technical ability, as she is actually more of a grade 7 standard, but is taking her grade 5, whilst finishing off her study for her grade 5 theory, as she obviously can't go any further until this is taken, and there is no rush, she just wants to attain a good distinction at this grade as a bit of a bechmark, she probably wont bother with grades again until taking her grade 8.

As for other student instruments, I think I would have to disagree with their ability to fulfill someones true potential. I cannot comment on the Gliga, I know they have a good reputation, but have heard a Stentor 11, with good strings and set up, and it's not good.

My older daughter plays a Stentor Arcadia violin which is top of their range and possibly comparable to the Gliga, and although sounds fine, it sounds nothing like the 3/4 violin of french origin that younger daughter plays even fitted with same strings, the projection and tonal quality is far superior.

Technically, yes, I suppose you could pass grade 8 on many a student instrument, but whether you could get a good distincition, I'm not sure, as the pieces you play require a lot more than just hitting the right note, they require the dynamics, expression and mood of the piece to be recognised and the player surely needs to feel able to do this to truly pay tribute to the piece, and I have not heard any cheaper student instruments that could do that, know matter how good the set-up.

As for bows, there is no way you could comtemplate performing some of the more demanding pieces, with a cheap student bow, they will not pull any real volume out of the violin, tonal qualities are weak, they don't tend to be particularly well balanced either as well as being too bouncy, making control difficult.

I do agree though that the expensive instrument will have to wait until she is older and if she decides to go to a conservatoire, which she seems dead set on doing at the moment.

At this stage, she is more than able to identify a violin which suits her from a selection of violins, and I would like her to have a choice, it is important after all that especially at this age, they want to pick that instrument up and play, because they love and appreciate what they can get out of it, and they want to keep picking it up and strive to get even more, (its not just about passing grades). Just feel a little sad that I can't afford it, but I intend to maybe look at loaning a better instrument for the time being.

I can sympathise with your situation, musical instruments are very expensive. I just wanted to make this point though, if you're a pianist, then you have to take grade 8 on whatever instrument is at the examination centre. Sometimes they're good, sometimes they're not, i'm pretty sure that an examiner would be able to see past the quality of the instrument and mark on the individuals playing. I remember borrowing my teachers wooden treble when I took grade 8 though as I was still on my trusty Aulos plastic!!!

I would also recommend looking into applying for an instrument from Benslow - they really appreciate the difference that a suitable instrument can make to a developing player.

Yes, you will need to get the right bow for the right instrument. Indeed, if money is short, I would suggest you look into upgrading your daughter's bow first to the best you can get, then think about the instrument. (Benslow also have bows but there is no guarantee that you can get a bow at the same time as an instrument,)

Alternatively, have you thought about hiring? Some of the specialist dealers may be prepared to hire you an instrument. I currently have a 10 year old pupil who has a fantastic german 7/8 violin on hire from Ealing Strings, and which has bought her playing on immensely. Her mum would not have been able to upgrade her previous 3/4 to anything like this extent and I believe she is paying about £150 a year to hire. The instrument she is hiring is definitely one that I would feel very happy with my pupil taking grade 8, although, realistically, when she gets to that level I will be trying to find the next level for her again so as to maintain her progress and momentum.

The 7/8 is a fantastic half way house for this young, aspiring player. She will probably apply for a Benslow instrument when she is really ready for a full size. At that stage she will also be a little older and hopefully ready to take on the responsibilty of caring for an even more valuable instrument.

Good luck in your search.

I understood that. I was having a rant


Then, if you can afford it, and you know you will like it or there is a 100% returns policy / try before you buy, that would be a good way to go. I have to say though that is a VERY low price for a luthier made instrument. But then perhaps the luthier does it for love - or perhaps it's not totally handmade (no reason why that should mean it's not great value of course)


That would be unusual and I doubt if many of us would recommend it, but it is of course a decision for those involved.



Then you'll have to bite the bullet, unless you can get one from Benslow. It's just that in the first post you said £2000 was not an option. If in fact it is an option then that is another matter and you have lots more choices.

Of course it's not, there's no comparison. But then a Stentor 2 should only cost about £100, unless it is from a shop with very high markups and has had a lot of set up work done. I don't see anyone here recommending taking Grade 7 or 8 on a £100 violin. There is a lot of difference between that and £2000 and there are MANY choices in between!


Disputed!!!!


See above. You could of course be lucky and find an older 4/4 or 7/8 that will fit the bill. I know there are some nice 3/4 old violins out there, but then I guess there are just not so many people chasing them.


Again, no-one here is suggesting a cheaper student instrument. Perhaps it's a matter of definition though. By "cheaper" I am talking £250 maximum. If you are thinking that £2000 is a student instrument (which is a line taken by some, I know) then I would say you have been very unlucky in the £2000 instruments you have seen so far if you have found none on which you think it would be possible to get grade 8 distinction. I repeat, I got grade 8 on a Poller, nearly a merit, and if I'd actually practiced I might very well have got a distinction. My teacher did not even suggest a better instrument at that stage - she was well aware that I was broke, and well aware that even at grade 8 I was still a limiting factor rather than the instrument - and that was just a Poller. I am quite confident that (if I wasn't injured) I could get ATCL / dipLCM / dipABRSM now (assuming practice of course!!) on an instrument that costs less than £500. Forum rules mean I cannot say what I would really want to say on this issue but I am perfectly serious.


Again, no-one is suggesting a cheap student bow (which i think of as being up to about £50). A moderately priced carbon fibre bow (assuming the weight suits) will perform in a manner comparable to a wood bow of many times the price. The bow I used for grade 8 cost me £40 in 1982 but that was before carbon fibre bows.

Best of luck to you then. All I would say is, don't disregard the suggestions you have been given here, all of us are speaking from experience and some here are professionals. If you think in terms of Eastern Europe or China (depending on your taste, China for loud bright and resonant, Eastern Europe for warm and dark) rather than Germany or France, you will get FAR more violin for your money.

Liz

If money is an issue I would try and borrow a suitable instrument as that would give you time to find funding for an instrument for your daughter if she decides to take up music as a career. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong but I think Benslow will loan instruments until the borrower has completed their education at music college.
I'm sure, if you wanted to try a gliga, that Liz would let you try it without you being committed to buying it.
Last person I knew who bought a luthier made instrument paid £7000 so £4000 does sound a little cheap.

My local violin shop (Glasgow) sells a lot of Romanian violins which are very good value for money, varying from £500 - £800 or so, with a lovely sound. He also has a lot of turn of the (19C) French and German trade violins at varying prices which are a lot better than a Stentor (no comparison!) but at affordable prices. You can get a good bow for around £300 if you really want to go that high, but bows are quite vulnerable in school situations, and you can get a perfectly adequate one for less. Besides, bows are very personal - I have two, a Hill and and anonymous German one. The Hill cost more but I prefer the other one, just keeping the Hill for a spare.

I dabbled a bit in violin making and one thing I found was that the set-up is crucial, and if the bridge tuning, string and soundpost combination is not correct the instrument will not play anywhere near its best. By which I mean that a cheaper instrument can give very good results. A good shop or luthier can do this for you.

I have heard good players make a fantastic sound on a poor instrument, and bad players make a rotten sound on lovely old Italian instruments......

I think your teacher is being quite unrealistic and I think you should tell her so. In your place I would decide how much I could afford to pay and then visit a dealer and try out what they can offer in that range. Or go down the hiring route. After all, your daughter might change her ideas about what violin she wants.

Good luck!

Indeed, in fact I would recommend avoiding ANY shop that does not allow instruments to be taken out on approval. It is after all standard practice in the marketplace.

Liz

Did I read right?? You're having it recomended to you to have an instrument made?? Perhaps violins are different, but I would have thought that to benefit from that you would truly have to know the instrument inside out - not something that a 12 year old would have, nor a grade 7 player.

As I've said before, but I'll repeat it, if you can make a good sound on a student instrument (and it IS posible) then the sound you make on a pro instrument will be amazing. As for passing exams, people get distinctions at grade 8 with the instruments they first started on, and a typical student clarinet is getting very old and battered by then! You don't need a pro instrument - its just a nice bonus at this stage. And the sums that are being considered here, for a 12 year old, most likely to be taken to school and back etc etc? I'm hesitant taking my clarinet in, which is worth less than what you are considering here.

Definitly try any instrument before you buy it though - what suits in the shop may not be so good the next day etc.

Another issue is that while your daughter can tell what instruments suit her now it is likely that her taste will change. The instrument I bought at the point of taking grade 7 was nothing like the one I loved 2 years later, which was much less fogiving of my technique. These were harps not violins, but friends tell me the same sort of things applies. I would advise before making any decision taking your daughter to try as many instruments as possible and see how she reacts to them. I am a great believer in buying sensibly and trading up frequently, rather than buying once and for all early on.

Also I would advise being open to the advice of instrument sellers- the good ones are not just out to sell the most expensive instrument possible, and actually have more experience at matching the player to the instrument than many teachers.

I agree, having one made specially for you is not a very sensible option except for a professional I would have thought. There is too much developing still to do at age 12! But there are some luthiers who generally have one or two instruments hanging around (literally!) and those presumably could be taken on approval as with any violin from a specialist shop.



Absolutely. I find I spend far more time talking people down in price than talking them up!

On that subject, I'd recommend simply telling the teacher that the budget she is suggesting is beyond your means (assuming it really is - I recall one parent telling me that I had to talk down the price of a used Stentor student that they were contemplating buying for their grade 3 son. They weren't rich, you see, in fact they had to paint their own landing stage!!). The teacher very well may not know, few of us are likely to push parents into purchases we know they can't afford. Just tell her your budget - and then think outside the box. You can get far more for your money from some sources than others.

Liz

Liz

This is an interesting thread which reminds me of a conversation with another mum while waiting for my daughter's cello lesson. The mum in question is, herself, a violin maker, and mentioned that violin teachers sometimes enquired if she would pay them commission on sales she made as a consequence of their pointing pupils in her direction. Apparently it is not uncommon for such arrangements to exist between specific violin makers and teachers. Hmmmm...

Possom's comments about pianists being stuck with the exam centre piano also reminded me of my surprise after my daughter's grade 1 singing exam that the examiner said nothing about whether or not she had a nice voice - a trend continued in subsequent singing examination reports! Thinking about it, however, I realised that the examiner would not have commented on the quality of her instrument in an instrumental exam but was, rather, looking to see how my daughter used the equipment she was stuck with!

It's not totally unknown for music shops to do this too, though apparently it's far more common in the US and in Continental Europe. We can spot these arrangements a mile off. And no, we don't do it!

Liz

Thanks for all the comments, although I feel some of the observations of my intitial and subsequent posting have been a little misinterpreted by some, I am however grateful for all the advice, and intend on acting on some of it right now.

I don't think her teacher is trying to make any money out of it herself, she is more than generous with her time, when preparing for an audition of late, she gave her extra lessons for free, and has built up a very good relationship with my daughter. She also had her own violin made by this same luthier she had suggested, although I presume from what others have said about £4,000 being a conservative amount, it maybe wouldn't be as good as hers, I don't really know, as we have not persued this idea as the most I can afford at the moment with trade in of her French 3/4 is £1,000, if I could afford the £2,000 upwards as many dealers seem to be asking for violins suitable for advanced players, there would not be a problem.

I am going to put in an application with EMI for a grant along with our local council which run a scheme for the arts. I will reassess the situation if we are successful with our applications.

I will also look at the Benslow Trust for loan of one of their instruments, which I didn't even know existed, so a big thanks for that!

I don't know what your French one is worth as a trade-in, but from what you've said it's perhaps, I'm guessing, about £500 or so? £1500 gives you LOTS of options. Just some I know of - Gliga, Jay Haide, Otto Klier, Heritage series from "The Soundpost" (nb I am not recommending all these, there are some I have tried and some I haven't, I am listing them to give you some names that's all), and that's before you even think about older violins. Ask some different dealers. There is nothing magical about £2000. To be blunt, going along to a dealer and saying "I need a violin for an advanced player" is inviting them to push you over the £2000 mark. Try a different line - say "what can you sell me for £1000 plus this trade-in?" or "What can you suggest for my daughter who plays at about grade 7 standard?" Do an internet search, get on the phone, get on the email, just think outside the box. You might be very pleasantly surprised. After all, what's the worst that can happen? You lose your petrol money, or you lose the postage when you send approval items back. That isn't a great deal of money in either case (unless you are driving hundreds of miles)

Liz

*gulp*

Would you be eligible for help from Benslow in the short term?


I believe you're right, that the quality of an instrument shows more in the higher positions, but I do think you're wrong to assume that you will have to spend thousands and thousands to get your daughter an instrument that will last her for some time.

Possom, I think you've summed it up perfectly.

But the marketing departments of the main instrument manufacturers are paid a fortune to make us think otherwise! Their job is made all the easier by the very natural snobbish behaviour that is part of our life.

If we all take a deep breath for a moment, we're not talking about international contract for millions of pounds, nor deals with Hollywood. We're talking about run of the mill ABRSM exams!! Things that kids do. Sixth formers do. Music loving adults do.

Anybody who believes that they need to spend thousands of pounds for this needs to take a cold shower and come back down to earth - pronto!

Steve

Before doing anything I would recommend going to and asking the opinion of a specialist violin shop (maker / restorer / dealer) who is completely independent of both your daughters teacher and her luthier contact. Such a one is Ayres violins in Didsbury, Manchester. I'm sure there are others.

I would be surprised if they do not at least partly agree with those whose opinion of getting a custom-made instrument for a still-growing player is that it does not seem sensible: Almost certainly, in a years time it will be custom-made for somebody who isn't her size and shape any more. It may well be reasonable later (though I still doubt it - ask while you are there) but for the moment at least, getting a reasonably priced good old one rather than a custom built new one seems like a much better option.

Can I make one more appeal to you, for your own sake, to take this over to the strings forum, at least if you get nowhere with Benslow? You see, dealers have different reputations and different markups and there are limits about what can be said on an open forum. But many violinists hang out on the strings forum who rarely visit the teachers forum. You want to speak to people who have dealt with the dealers you are mentioning. Tell them where you are and someone may have other suggestions. Some will be prepared to mail you off the forum. Being in the trade I do know something about two of the dealers that have been mentioned on this thread. We have only dealt with one of those and I do have confidence in that one. I can't go any further on open forum. I will be happy to mail you privately if you agree.

I do agree with the comments about the JTL from my admittedly very limited experience of them. You should not imagine that represents the best value at either price point - don't forget the fact that it is French puts the price up.

£2000 with a soundpost crack, or £695 without, gives a limited number of possibilities: one dealer is marking up excessively or one dealer is selling off a trade-in at cost or the models are completely different.

100% trade in means the dealer has effectively taken a loss of about 15% on the first instrument. This is because (assuming the dealer is VAT registered) she automatically loses the VAT she had to pay when she sold you the violin, and unless you are VAT registered she cannot now reclaim that VAT, it's just money lost. She has to make a profit, unless she is in it for a hobby.

Here is an example which is hypothetical only:

1. Suppose shop A and shop B both buy a standard make of violin from the wholesaler. One shop has a high turnover and has nice premises to upkeep and the other has a low turnover and has back room in a converted mill. The wholesale price is £100 but a shop that has a higher turnover can get a discount bringing the cost down to £85. Shop A buys the violin for £85, does 10 minutes work on it and sells it for £200. Shop B buys the violin for £100, does 10 minutes work on it and sells it for £150. Shop A tells you that they will give you an 80% trade in if you move up to something costing £500 next time. Shop B offers a 60% trade in if you move up to something costing £500 next time.

2. A £500 instrument costs shop A £220. A £500 instrument costs shop B £320 (this is very rough and I have not allowed for VAT, it is a general illustration only). Both shops use the same wholesaler but their different markups mean that for £500 you are going to get a better instrument from shop B than from shop A.

3. Now take the trade-in, Shop A offered 80% so they will give you £160 back, leaving you £340 to find. Shop B offered 60% so they will give you £90 back leaving you £410 to find. But you're getting a better violin from shop B, the violin you are buying from shop B costs that shop £100 more than the violin you are buying from shop A. In other words it is the next model up in whatever range it is.

4. The total you have spent for the two violins you have had is £540 with shop A or £560 with shop B. But the second violin you would get from shop B has a list price of £140 more than the second one you would get from shop A (I repeat, this is very rough and I have not taken any account of VAT, but you get the general principle). So by going to shop B rather than shop A, you have spent only £20 more in total but have a violin with a list price of £140 more.

Now add in the rather interesting factor of direct imports - dealers importing direct rather than going through a wholesaler - and there is even more room for price variation. This is because the wholesaler's margin is FAR higher than the retailer's margin (it has to be, they have to keep a lot of stock and of course they have done the work to get the best prices, they can get far lower prices than a small retailer importing direct, but those low prices don't get passed on to the retailer and so they don't get passed on to you).

The following example is based on fact and I have the catalogue here to prove it, but the actual instruments and prices and details have been changed to avoid falling foul of the rules. Wholesaler A sells violin X to retailers for £4000 (plus VAT). The anticipated retail price for violin X is £7400 (inc VAT). Retailer B buys from wholesaler A and sells violin X at the retail price of £7400, having first done some adjustments to it which would cost £200 if done to a violin brought in from elsewhere. Retailer C has personal contacts with the makers of violin X and is able to sell violin X to the end user for £4000, having first done some adjustments to it that would cost £200 if done to a violin brought in from elsewhere. The end user pays almost double for the same violin if bought from retailer B than he would pay if he bought it from retailer C. Retailers D E and F realise they are not going to be able to compete with retailer C on this particular brand so they don't stock it, instead they obtain their violins from wholesaler G. So the end user has more choice.

The country where violin X is made is a poor country and the prices paid by retailer C are higher than those paid by wholesaler A because wholesaler A can buy more violins than retailer B. However the workers in the factory that makes violin X benefit from better working conditions and higher wages because the owner of the factory is prepared to deal with smaller independent retailers rather than insisting on sending everything through one or two large wholesalers (which is an easier way to run the business but means the price he gets per instrument is much lower because wholesalers with a lot of buying power can insist on the very lowest prices, it's "take it or leave it" for the owner of the factory). Because the factory where violin X is made has a reputation for being the best place to work, workers in the area are very keen to work there and so the very best people get employed and the quality of instruments made in that factory rises, thus giving an even better deal to the end user.

Economics lesson over

There are several examples of this sort of thing and there is more than one country to which this scenario applies. It is the hope of many of us in the trade that this sort of economic empowerment will be the route by which certain countries will face internal pressure to deal with their human rights record, as factory owners realise that they have a huge amount of economic freedom, but little freedom in the rest of their lives.

One of the problems with trade-in - and the very reason dealers offer it - is that it ties you in to that dealer. The only way to get a good trade-in is to go back to the same dealer. Now, the very best way to get your violin sold is through the teacher, that can sometimes be done. Certainly if you end up selling on ebay you will take a crashing loss, that's not under any dispute at all, been there, done that! It IS a good place to buy IF you know your stuff and are prepared to take a small risk.

Liz

I don't know if this is any help but I play a very new Gliga Gama and I've been told it will take me through to Grade 8 easily. At the moment it has a nice rounded sound. I'm taking Grade 2 but I'm playing grade 4/5 music already with it.

My teacher plays a Gliga Gama professionally and says that they take a little time to 'play in' and develop the sound and, going by hers, it's true because it has a much deeper, fuller voice than mine. She also plays an instrument that was hand-made to her own specification and I don't think it sounds as good (hard to believe but true!).

As the Gama is a factory instrument I've also been told they improve with a 'professional' set up; re-setting the bridge and soundpost. I have the utmost confidence that my Gama will be a great partner for the future as I'm planning to play in various ensembles, orchestras, sessions and possibly even paid work with it.

My Dad owns a Glasgow-made violin worth in excess of £5000 and, yes, there's a difference in the sound but my Gama still has to 'develop'. In time, I will be playing Dad's violin but I don't see that as necessary until well after grade 8.

There is a point also where the sound from the instrument is dependent on the techniques and skills of the player. Any examiner/auditioner I've met (I'm a diploma level clarinettist) would certainly ascertain that.

BTW my Gama cost under £400 but has had £50+ strings added and will have a 'set-up' later. I've heard it played through all positions and it sounds extremely even - I'm delighted with it and I'm very hard to please!

Absolutely. Is there anyone here who doesn't think Vengeroff would sound better on a Stentor 2 than most of us would on a Strad?


What strings have you got on it?

Liz

There is a lot of advice on this thread, most of which I generally agree with, although I think some people's faith in examiner's/adjudicators ability to distinguish the underlying ability of a performer from the quality of the violin is optimistic. I've seen enough examples of exam results achieved from different children in my area to believe that many examiners are very influenced by a large sound from an expensive violin especially in the hands of a player who appears very young for their grade. There have also been various comments from teachers on this forum and viva strings complaining about unfair advantages of rich children with big investments in violins to make me believe that plenty of teachers believe it is an advantage too.

Anyway it's all a bit beside the point. TRACY's problem is that she has the advice she has been given by the teacher. As a parent there is enormous pressure to follow that advice. She is not someone who has decided for herself that her child requires a special expensive instrument, it is what the teacher has told her. Only TRACY knows how easy she will find it to go back to the teacher and discuss buying a Gliga Gama, for example.

There are certain sorts of teachers who are very protective of their track record of high grade distinctions and festival results, and some of these teachers believe that much of this success is partly dependent on having pupils playing above average instruments, whether they admit this openly or not. They put quite a lot of pressure on parents to provide the goods. Also, in fairness, because of where they teach they may find most of their parents can afford it and don't realise when they are asking too much of a family.

Another way of looking at this whole discussion is to imagine what the collective forum reaction would be if a teacher posted "I gave this mother specific advice and she went off and did exactly what she wanted just because somebody on an internet chat room told her I was wrong"

The last thing you want as a parent is a year or two where the teacher is dissatisfied with the instrument you have obtained and end up having to move teachers or take a few hundred pound financial hit on the trade in of the instrument in order to get the £4000 luthier made instrument anyway to restore the relationship.

Grants and/or Benslow is a good way to go. I don't think the teacher is likely to object to the sort of instrument Benslow Trust might provide from what I have heard, although I don't have personal experience (yet). If you do decide you might take other advice from this thread and buy something cheaper then obviously discuss it with the teacher first and make sure she knows she will be fully involved and will have the right to veto any purchase if she is not satisfied. Get any instruments on approval and take them along to the teacher to hear and play. I remember turning up to my daughter's cello teacher's house with four cellos in the car one day for this purpose.

To put your mind at rest partially perhaps, my daughters £700 cello (about twice a stentor 2 or £240 in violin terms) holds its own fine in the NCO despite the fact that some children arrive carrying cello cases which cost more than that.

Best of luck whichever way you go.

I do hope this isn't really the case, though I have no more faith in the consistency of exam results than anyone else. You can make a cheap Chinese instrument play very loudly though, if it's sheer volume that is wanted. Just put Helicore strings on it. The usual problem with such violins is toning them down!

That is true. My only comment would be that teachers need to have more sensitivity on this issue. I used to teach a pupil from a lower income family who ended up getting into a Conservatoire (recorder) using instruments that no-one here would normally recommend for solo playing at all, and even those were borrowed. I lost touch and honestly have no idea what happened after that, but she got in. She was also a high level flute player and fortunately her flute teacher understood the problem and managed to find her a reasonable flute owned by the county. I'd suggest Tracy just tells the teacher, who might well be rather embarrassed that she didn't think of there being a possible problem.

Fair comment, though if the teacher had said "this girl is 12 years old and has grade 5 and I told her she needs to spend £4000 to have a violin made for her by my favourite luthier" I think there would have been a rather different reaction.

You see, I honestly don't understand why the teacher should be concerned about what instrument the child is playing UNLESS that instrument really is causing problems. If it is, then surely the thing to do is for the TEACHER to play it to the parent and explain exactly what the problem is. If the parent cannot or will not take advice when given like that, that is rather a different matter.

It's worth noting that Benslow have a minimum loan value of £1000 for a 4/4 violin. So this girl might not get anything from Benslow that is better than she could buy anyway. And then again of course she might. It is absolutely worth asking.

Agreed

There is one Mum on here whose child got high distinctions on very cheap cellos. The player is the important thing - as long as the instrument is actually playable of course.

Liz

I once had the pleasure of attending one of these blind tests where a good violinist went behind a screen to play three violins- a decent student instrument of some kind, a respectable 19th century french instrument and a Stradivarius. On average the audience could not tell which was which, and it was obviously a musical audience. While I did manage to identify which was which I did not feel the player was far more important than the instrument, particularly once I heard a less expert player try the strad. It was, however, clear from the players' body language that they appreciated the differences between the instruments more than the audience. So, I would say the player may have to work harder to get a great noise out of a respectable violin than a great one it won't doom her to mediocrity (and all the time she will be getting better and more attractive for sponsorship or loans such as Benslow).

On the subject of finances consider also the difference between sacrificing the 100% trade in on the £500 violin, or later on a more expensive instrument where the total loss will be higher for a given percentage reduction in return. Also, as I hope you know, instruments for a child at a state school, or who plays with a county music service organised orchestra can be bought without paying VAT regardless of where they are purchased from.

When I was 12 I needed a £6000 (about £4000 then) instrument as at that time you needed a pedal harp to take grade 4 and much cheaper pedal harps simply don't exist. My parents paid half, the other half was mine to find, from relatives (in one case in lieu of all future presents), savings, and mostly as a loan from my parents. I paid this off very slowly, in the first years it was mostly with Christmas/birthday money but it gave me a great feeling off ownership of the instrument and an incentive to keep on with it and also not spend my money on things I didn't truly need, while my parents did get money back gradually. I have no idea if any of this would apply to your situation, but can speak from experience that 12 is not too young to be aware of the finances of a decent instrument and have opinions on choices like good violin versus holiday.

A reminder to all of us that there are FAR worse instruments to play, from a cost perspective, than a violin!

A professional player friend of ours plays violin and double bass professionally. He is a Conservatoire graduate with an MA in performance. His instruments are as follows:

£800 old violin, loud and brash, used for freelance orchestral playing
£400 new violin, dark and warm, used for regular quartet playing and also, amplified, for Ceilidhs
£435 viola, same as the violin
Rainbow violin in blue - yes I am serious - used with octave strings for special effects in the orchestra pit.
Battered old double bass, apparently East European and Laminated, with estimated resale value of about £200 on a good day.

And let's be honest, in many parts of the world professional musicians would be totally unable to afford even instruments like those, unless they were good enough to get one provided by the state.



O yes - very good point. We have all forgotten to mention that one and that makes quite a difference when you are talking about £1000. It's not quite "regardless of where" though - shops are not obliged to operate this system and a very small retailer who is not subject to VAT cannot operate it. And schools are not obliged to operate it either. Very occasionally one gets a snotty LEA that refuses to operate the system for any supplier that is not already on their approved list. Cardiff is one such. And Derbyshire charges £5 to operate the scheme, as they are permitted to do.

Liz

I think from friends' experiences with violin being so popular you'd be waiting longer to get a reeeally amazing insturment from Benslow. A friend of mine had a really lovely viola from them (though, in all honesty, not as much better than my Gliga Gama as I would expect given it was worth about 10 times as much! It was a very lovely instrument though) but when he asked for a violin instead the instrument was considerably more ordinary, though still a nice violin. Better than a £500 one, but we're not talking some amazing several-thousands type instrument.

(Both instruments were picked out by him by Louis Carus himself so it wasn't that he was unlucky or something! It was just that the better quality instruments are more in demand for violins and so one has to be that much more advanced (my friend was playing violin as a second study at uni, just to give you the perspective) to get the really fab instruments)

RE the instrument vs the player argument:

I have a violin from my own childhood. When my son, (a grade 1 passer at the time) grew out of his "cheap and cheerful" 3/4 size instrument we took my old one to a violin specialist who brought it up to playable standard (not much work required) and casually valued it at £500-700. When we got it home my son took it out of it's case and played a couple of notes: His eyes opened wide and his mouth went the same shape. He didn't want to put it down.

The moral of this story is: The difference between OK and good might be hard to spot but you don't have to be a good player to notice the difference between bad and OK.

Oh definitely!

As a child I went from a very naff 1/2 size violin to a reasonable 3/4 size and couldn't believe the difference.

That was, though, a difference between one worth maybe £30 on a good day to one that would probably be worth £100-and-something now.

O yes, that's quite true.

Liz

My daughter has already donated £500 of her savings, which has accumulated since birth to the piano which was purchased a year and half ago, as it was a condition of the music scholarship, that piano or keyboard should be learnt. She chose the piano and willingly paid approx a third of the cost to purchase one.

Good for her. It certainly sounds as if she has the commitment she needs.

Liz