I'm now at the stage when I'm thinking a lot about potential careers, and, certainly, one of the ones I'm looking at is the possibility of becoming a cellist - something that has been my ultimate dream for years.

However, many things scare me about this, and one is this - do you need to be pushy to get to the top in music?

Most people I talk to have stories about making sure you're in the right place at the right time; putting oneself forward all the time; being ruthless.

Trouble is, I'm not like that at all. I'm fairly quiet, hate putting myself forward, and definitely don't have the massive ego/confidence that most of my musician friends seem to have.

So, is this going to hold me back?
Do you need to be pushy to get to the top?

Any suggestions appreciated....

cellocase, you sound just like me (I am also quiet and not one to push forward) .
Us humble ones just have to get by and ignore the ignorance of those who think they have it all.
I belong to several bands and the flautists are quite competetive amongst each other, it's a terrible atmosphere . I have let people above me, when really I should have been above them (clearly) - Not being big-headed or anything like that, just stating the facts. I think you do have to push forward sometimes, to get what you want - don't worry, people wont think bad of you - with me it was just seen as determination/keeness or whatever you want to call it.
You have got to fight for your place and people will see that and hopefully back down, they will see that you are a good player and respect you more for standing up to what you deserve.

You don't need to act pushy or anything.

Let's just say, if you work to your best and opt. for playing solos etc. you could just get that bit further in your career.
I think in music there are alot of different characters around, just stay true to yourself and ignore the immaturity of others.

I think that in music you have to be extremely self-disciplined and wor hard, but you don't have to be all aggressive. It does help if you're very self-confident, as it shows in the performance. Just grab every opputurnity (sp?) you get, you don't have to be pushy

It depends what you mean by "the top". In cello terms, the top probably involves filling the recently vacated shoes of the late Mstislav Rostropovich, but you can be a professional cellist without reaching that level. (In fact most cellists don't reach that level - if everyone did, it wouldn't be the top!)

If you really are aiming for the stars, here are the issues.

Yes, you have to be in the right place at the right time, which partly involves luck but also means constantly engineering the situation in your favour.

If you don't like putting yourself forward, pretend that you DO like it and get on with it. Either that or spend a lot of money on people who will do that for you, and make sure you do what they tell you. (On this point, I would bet my house that not all - in fact very few - of your musician friends have massive ego/confidence. They've just persuaded you that they have, and that's a trick you'll need to learn yourself.)

Being ruthless - well, it depends what you mean. Pushing your rivals underneath double decker buses is probably unnecessary, but putting in effort to get jobs that they want is crucial.

Being fairly quiet - fine, no problem. But be noisy when you have to.

There are many very fine players who could have made it musically but do not have the stage presence and charisma to fire the public.

A career as a soloist these days (generally) means you need to be able to have this stage presence, and increasingly look good too (!). (Times have changed since Slava's day, and there are still those who make it without this performing personality (eg Kissin) simply because they are so good they stand out anyway)

If you will be satisfied in a career as a cellist in a group or orchestra, rather than as a soloist, then you maybe don't need so much push and media machine behind you.

Well, the trouble is that a solo career is what my dream has always been, although I do love chamber music too - but not an orchestral cellist.
Stage presence and charisma is hopefully okay - but do you need the push to make it noticed?
Thanks for the helpful replies, everyone.

ASSERTIVE. That's probably the word you want to look for. Don't go too far and end up in agressive, that is pushy and diva-like (you are more than welcome to act like a diva once you get to that stage ).
Probably with the stage presence and charisma and exuding-self-confidence, you want to turn it up to 11. As in, be as stage-presence-y as you think you need to be, then give that little bit extra. Don't go out there thinking you're good, go out there knowing that you're brilliant...

surely you need a certain amount of 'push' to get most places in Life.
the amount you need to find depends on you, and on what it is you want to do.

Very right Maizie, ASSERTIVE.... maybe POSITIVE? Able to spot opportunities and be in a position to take them as they arise.

If you are determined, you'll make it.

That's the word: determined. You need to have absolutely no doubt in your mind that you'll get to where you want to be. There's no need to be pushy or ruthless. Just let your playing speak for itself.

The most important thing is to show others what you can do. Even if you're a fantastic cellist, only the neighbours will ever know if you don't "put yourself out there". That's why music colleges organise frequent recitals and gigs for their students (and sometimes it's the students who do the organising).

I gave up any thought of doing music professionally in any way because deep down I don't believe that I am good enough, no matter what other people say, no matter what my certificates say. I knew I couldn't convince other musicians of that so I gave it all up. I don't know if I made the right choice, but an understandable one...

I agree mostly.
There may be times when you need to be a bit pushy, possibly ruthless - because someone else may push YOU aside.
but do it politely if you can

I definitely think you can learn to be more assertive (which I agree is a better description than pushy - if you're truly pushy then you'll quickly start to nark people off!!)

I think a lot of success in music is luck, too - I know two sisters, both extremely musical, the eldest played flute and then learned piano (astonishingly quickly!), the youngest played violin then switched to viola. The eldest is possibly the more musical/has the sheer raw talent of the two, performs beautifully, had an incredibly beautiful flute tone even aged 11, but she is (last I heard) teaching as a peri and working in box offices, whereas the younger, who is, don't get me wrong, a very musical lass, very much a performer, and picked things up quickly, but did not have the same versatility or sheer musicality, is being paid to go to America and play in an orchestra. Go figure. Partly choice of instrument, and partly personality, but mostly luck... the one had to fight for everything, the other has had everything fall in her lap.

If you can make yourself act the assertive cellist in situations when it is necessary, you will become more used to and comfortable in the role. I'm certain that not every soloist is pushy and ruthless with an iron determination to get ahead no matter who they trample. Talent and being in the right place at the right time will get you further than being bolshy, surely!

Good luck

Thanks for all the advice, everyone. I'll have a go at being a bit more asserive (whoops, almost left caps lock on - a bit too assertive!) I just dislike the idea of putting myself forward so much. I like to think that if I'm good enough, I'll get noticed anyway - but I know that's not completely the case, and you have to make sure you're in the right places to get noticed.

Good luck, cc.

Maybe try to think of it more as not letting others be pushy to you or push you out of the spotlight - rather than pushing yourself in. Not sure if that makes much sense... don't feel the need to take a personality transplant I guess! Just stand up for yourself & get as good as you can

Maybe the way to think of it is that this is just something you have to do, like practising scales or doing a lot of travelling. Not all of the job needs to be as much fun as performing on the cello, and in fact it would be a bit concerning if there was anything you enjoyed more than that!

From my experience in various fields, including music, I'd say that being good at what you do is about 20% of what's required to get to the top. Of course it's important (though not essential, to judge by some of the well-known-but-not-brilliant people who are having a lot of success) but without all the marketing and networking and so on you're just not going to get anywhere on talent alone. Sad, perhaps, but true.

You made the right choice if it was right for you. No-one matters in this case. You make this kind of decision based on what you want to do with your life and how capable you feel of achieving it. Having music as a serious hobby can be equally artistically satisfying and remove the pressure from what should be your joy in life.

I don't know about the music industry, but I would agree that being good at what you do is only a small part of being successful in many fields. Making sure other people realise how good you are and what an asset you will be to them is just as important. Whether you do this by assertiveness or by employing more subtle "people skills" is a matter for the individual

Well my three areas of experience here are music, media and sport, and exactly the same issue applies in all of them.

I agree that there are different ways of achieving the same aim, but it's also worth bearing in mind what a friend said when we were discussing the subject - "successful people are successful because they say they are". It's a good rule of thumb, and one which he experimented with a few years ago, with spectacular results.

I'm very intrigued....

I think I mentioned this in another thread a while ago. Among other things, he's a church organist, and a few years ago he organised a Christmas concert based on music composed for one of the super-churches in America. The experiment was to market it in an unusual way - rather than saying, "we're doing this concert, I think you'll enjoy it, please buy some tickets," he told people, "this concert will CHANGE YOUR LIFE".

I played in it, and it was the cheesiest thing I'd ever done up to that point. In fact it's become an annual thing, and it's known to a few of us as the Cheesefest. I only do it because he's a good mate.

But the marketing worked. The church holds 600 people, and he filled it in the first year. People went there expecting it to change their lives, and it did - one gentleman in the chorus, who was suffering from terminal cancer and died a few months later, told my friend that it was the finest thing he had ever been involved with.

In the second year all 600 tickets were sold out TWELVE WEEKS before the concert. Same again for the next few, which were all in the church.

Last Christmas he booked a city centre venue which holds 1200 people. It sold out. And this time he didn't have any new material, so he just cobbled together stuff from previous concerts, so most of the audience had already heard everything that was being performed. Didn't matter - they still loved it.

This is what inspired the line about successful people being successful because they say they are. We also agreed on the importance of not apologising for what you're going to do. Don't hope that people will come along and enjoy what they hear - tell them that they're going to!

Crumbs!

Reminds me very much of a Derren Brown show I watched called "Messiah." It's all about how people perceive things. Very very interestsing.

Click here to watch it.