Hi there. I have a bit of a problem and was wondering if any of you had any suggestions. I have two pupils (twins) who play the saxophone. They had five teachers in a year before me and were quite impressive when I first had them. After getting them through Grade 3, cracks seriously began showing in their playing. As I started to give them harder pieces, it became abundantly clear that they have never been taught rhythm. They are very good at listening to me and repeating in the lesson but they don't relate what they see on the page to what they play, they play the notes and pay absolutely no attention to rhythm. I have tried everything I can think of to teach them rhythm, but it's such a basic skill, all the exercises I've found are easy and bore them so they won't do them. They also won't believe me when I say that if they just practise counting in their heads, pretty soon it'll become second nature! I eventually spoke to their mother about it and told her that basically, they won't be able to progress any further if they don't at least try and learn rhythm! She said that they weren't too fussed about taking exams and that they just want to enjoy playing. I totally agree on one hand, but on the other, what's the point of them playing if they don't want to get any better? And if she doesn't want me teaching them things like rhythm, what's the point in them paying me for sitting and listening to the kids play for half an hour? These kids are intelligent, they know note names and values, they just can't seem to comprehend (or don't want to or don't care!) that four semiquavers should fit into the space of one crotchet etc. I find it very hard teaching rhythm to kids like this as I was never really taught it, it must've been something I picked up very quickly, so I have no points of reference as to good ways of teaching it. If anyone can suggest any, I would be massively grateful.
Thanks!

Lizzie

Point out to them that reading music well is an important part of playing and perhaps add some written theory work into the lessons too. Ask them to write in counting to simple pieces at first. They may not really understand just what they should be counting as they play.
Then find some really easy trios for you to play together. They will soon see how important it is to count. The easier the better at first.

Hi
There are many ways of teaching rhythm using word association.
The first is using tea for crotchet, coffee etc coca-cola etc the list can go on

However the one method that I really like is the Kodaly method, they have most rhythms covered. Each rhythm ta, te-te ect is good because it uses the same sound that you teach for the tongue. Another benefit of the Kodaly way is the emphasis of the beat. Also connected to that is rhythm cards using stick notation - that way rhythm is taken away from the notes. If you want to later to add notes you can by introducing scales to it.

but i am a strong believer in Kodaly. (a search engine will find many hits)

Hope that helps
How did they do in sight reading.

Good suggestions, unfortunately, I've tried most of them! I've told them till I'm blue in the face how important rhythm is, they simply don't believe me. I wrote out a worksheet with gradually increasingly complex rhythms, starting with four crotchets, then eight quavers, then sixteen semiquavers, then various differing rhythmic patterns. I also asked them to count themselves in to set a beat in their heads. They counted in and then proceeded to play the rhythms wrong and in a completely different time! I always clap a beat for them as they play to try and make them relate it to what they're playing but I think they just zone me out. As for their sightreading, note-wise, it's good and that was commented in their exam, as was their disregard for the rhythm! When they have passages of several repeated notes, they don't even try and count the correct number. The main problem is that they don't seem to want to learn it, so they don't put any effort into it in the lesson or at home. I don't think theory would work as I don't think they'd do it. My own teacher wisely pointed out that the pupil who just wants to play tunes he knows in his room is the one who'll give up soon anyway, but I don't want them to give up, rhythm is the only thing holding them back at the moment, everything else in their playing is pretty good! I don't think it's me as none of my other pupils have such difficulty comprehending how I teach them rhythm. I think I need subtle ways to get it through to them, so they don't realise they're learning it. I suspect such ways don't exist!!
Typical example of their attitude: they've been asking me to play the james bond theme for months so I finally wrote it all out for them. I'd resisted before as it's quite a complex rhythm, especially for two such rhythmically challenged kids! Sure enough, two bars in and they complained they couldn't and therefore didn't want to do it. I nearly screamed!! They actually have one-on-one tuition too so there shouldn't be any excuse for not concentrating.
Sorry for long post, I'm quite frustrated with the situation as you may have guessed!

Daztan beat me to it!

I have found that rhythm names are an immense help - and, as daztan says, it is essential to relate rhythm to pulse, both consciously and unconsciously. As a child I never actually understood what '1 and 2 and' meant, written all over my music - so, as petrat says, you also have to make sure that the students understand what it is they are meant to be counting, if you use that method.

Rhythm cards are a wonderful asset - as daztan says, they mean that you can work on rhythm away from the instrument (but then, of course, incorporate the instrument too). David Vinden produces an excellent set which I think cost around 11 pounds - I think they're available from the British Kodály Academy's website but also from David direct (PM me for details).

I would heartily recommend that you get some training in both the Kodály and the Dalcroze approaches. Dalcroze is wonderful for teaching rhythm - I can think of a one exercise that could really help with the understanding of sub-division of the beat (I'm not Dalcroze trained although I have been on courses and have worked closely with some wonderful Dalcroze teachers).

I think I need subtle ways to get it through to them, so they don't realise they're learning it. I suspect such ways don't exist!! - - - KODALY KODALY KODALY does exactly what you want.

If they don't understand pulse - rhythm will never happen.
You can do ball games, bounce the beat - one bounces the other claps the rhythm.
Sing while bouncing,
When we do band we use Kodaly to teach rhythm (passing rhythm)
Marching the beat - cheap plastic round placemants - set out 4 = four beats of the bar. they walk on each beat, while playing, clapping etc.
Kodaly principle is around singing - if you have the opportunity to see any of the Hungarian schools training, I have some secondary kids that can't do what these can do in primary school. - scary stuff.

Kodaly help with dictation, but for it to work with your kids - you need to believe it. I look around my teaching room, and we have a whole wall display set aside for Kodaly.

It works - I have seen people that went from not agreeing turn around to the idea.

KODALY! KODALY! and yes dont forget David Vindon!!!

[/quote]
I think I need subtle ways to get it through to them, so they don't realise they're learning it. I suspect such ways don't exist!! - - - KODALY KODALY KODALY does exactly what you want.

If they don't understand pulse - rhythm will never happen.
You can do ball games, bounce the beat - one bounces the other claps the rhythm.
Sing while bouncing,
When we do band we use Kodaly to teach rhythm (passing rhythm)
Marching the beat - cheap plastic round placemants - set out 4 = four beats of the bar. they walk on each beat, while playing, clapping etc.
Kodaly principle is around singing - if you have the opportunity to see any of the Hungarian schools training, I have some secondary kids that can't do what these can do in primary school. - scary stuff.

Kodaly help with dictation, but for it to work with your kids - you need to believe it. I look around my teaching room, and we have a whole wall display set aside for Kodaly.

It works - I have seen people that went from not agreeing turn around to the idea.

KODALY! KODALY! and yes dont forget David Vindon!!!
[/quote]

Wow, that's some serious love for Kodaly! I think I will definitely have a go at that, I've considered doing some sort of physical stuff with them to try and relate pule and rhythm together so I'll try that too. I do believe it...they unfortunately don't! I think I may come to some sort of agreement with them: they can play whatever pieces they want, as long as they do some rhythm work whilst they do it. If they enjoy their pieces enough, perhaps they won't be so resistant to rhythm exercises!

Gosh - and I thought I went over the top...

You say that the main problem is them not appreciating how important rythm is....
mine might be a silly suggestion, it probably won't solve all the problem but it might be a little help on the way...
We know that rythm is so important as without it music would not sound the same all the time....ie: if one plays a piece with the correct rythm and the next person plays it with 'mixed up rythms' or the wrong one even though it's the same piece it will sound totally different right?
Have you thought about or tried finding out what pieces the LOVE to listen to and possibly play one day then during one of your lessons tell them you have this 'cool' piece for them to listen to and play it with completely jumbled up rythm so mixed up that they won't recognize it....then ask them 'Well how was it??? this was one of your favourite pieces, can you tell me which one it is?'...they won't recognize it..then you have showed them exactly why rythm is so important!

Are they boys?

If so, could you try engaging them on the noisy/physical level? One of the schools I teach at has some plastic pipe sets, consisting of lengths of different coloured plastic pipe that you can hit together and which make different pitches. All pupils, but boys especially, can get very involved in any sort of percussion work especially if it involves a lot of whacking and noise (we tried empty plastic squash bottles once but they didn't last very long!).

Get one person to keep a steady beat then another to fit another rhythm to it eg fit quavers to crotchets. This can be trickier than it sounds to start with but with good physical input can seem like fun. When they're comfortable with that, change it, say to tripple time (dotted minim against crotchets). Gradually, over a few weeks of short bursts you can build it up in length and complexity but do make sure that someone always keeps a steady pulse. Use lots of word associations in strict rhythms too, again you can make them as straight or as silly as you like - crotchet, 2 quavers, 2 crotchets might even become 'ice - cream and - gra...vy ......


As I'm typing I am begining to wonder whether it is simply a mathematical/rhythm problem or is it that they have never learnt to establish a steady pulse to fit everything to. If this is the case then it may take a while but don't make it seem like a chore - with a bit of planning it can be the bit of the lesson they look forward to as a means of 'letting off steam' (in their eyes). If they have consecutive lessons can you do a burst of rhythm work around changeover?

hi
just a note the pipes are called boom whackers, you can get them with octave adjusters and also they also come chromatically.

I think the problem needs to be dealt with away from the instrument. Clapping or verbalising as Cyrilla & daztan have expressed (I also use the Kodaly rhythms and they work wonders) work best. It doesn't matter if they ignore it completely at home. If it takes you a whole lesson to clap/verbalise the first 4 bars of the piece they are working on, and drill it into them then you've made progress. And I assure you that they will go home with that rhythm stuck in their head, because it will sound far better than what they were doing!

Remember to start with very simple rhythms - make sure they can feel the pulse and evenly divide beats - before moving on to trickier combinations.

Good luck!

Tea,
Coffee
Coca cola
Or-ange juice
Salt pepper

I teach drums as well as Piano - and if drummers understand it - it must work

this is all really helpful, thankyou everyone! yes they are boys, only 10 but I think they are fast approaching sulky teenagerdom! they do love sport though so I think physical stuff might really sink in with them.

Sulky teenagerdom often only happens if you let it. Make sure you speak BOY to them (it is a completely different language to that used to the female of the species) and engage them in lots of short bursts of activity rather than trying to get them to concentrate on one thing for too long. 2 or 3 different books with pieces of different styles is good - they can then be working on a piece from each rather than just getting bored with one book.

Are there any bands for them to join?
At that age with both sexes, the more reason they have for playing, particularly in a social context, the more chance you have of keeping their attention (and business) as they get into their teens. Several of my pupils regard band/orchestra as one of the highlights of their week, and son no.2 (age 13) seems to find himself a new girlfriend every time there is a band weekend. I only have to point out that I might be unwilling to pay for another year's band unless his practice rate improves to hear a very audible diference.

Grade 3 at age 10 sounds like a very encouraging start - good luck with the consolidation work!

Sometimes I use T E E E for semibreves, T E E for dotted minims, T E for minims, T for crotchets, Coffee for a pair of quavers, CATERPILLAR for a group of four semiquavers, PELICAN for a triplet and UNIVERSITY for a quintuplet.

Perhaps some playing of simple pieces together at sight might get these kids counting?

I like PELICAN !

For boys you might do even better using names of favourite football/rugby teams or players. Failing that, and only if you can bear to hear it week after week there are always the 'back seat of the bus' versions....
Much as I personally prefer CATERPILLAR I have one group of boys for whom it will always be GRANNY's KNICKERS....

Not sure if it's my Aussie accent, but pelican to me is closer to the pattern of two semiquavers & a quaver rather than a triplet. I can turn it into a triplet because I know what a triplet is, but as a child I'm not sure if it would help with even divisions of the beat. I've heard some teachers here use 'pineapple' instead - not sure if this is any better!

Pineapple is certainly a triplet the way I say it. Not so sure about pelican!

I've had some success recently with walk for crotchets, jogging for a pair of quavers, and stride for minims. The advantage of these words is that you can move around the room to them. I've tried expanding the idea by using pitterpatter for semiquavers and hoppity skippity for a bar of quavers in 6/8. These can then become hop-py skip-py for crotchet quaver crotchet quaver.

I'm not sure to what extent these would work with boys! Unfortunately I teach only girls. One of the side effects of being a flute teacher.

I teach woodwind (all girls) and guitar (all boys). It is only the boys that I seem to have a problem with when teaching rhythm. They think that just playing the notes is sufficient - some of them are working on the initial guitar exam which is a real struggle so we just do a little each week, the rest of the time they play tunes that they know. If the lessons involves anything other the playing the music in front of them they quickly become bored and disruptive. As they put it 'they can't be bovvered'.

Today I have two girls for flute , then all boys for guitar

Sounds very familiar! What is frustrating is that I've had more than one 'break-through' point, where they actually understand, the understanding dawns on their face and then they promptly forget by the next lesson.
As for joining bands, I don't think they're ready, I've used that as an example of how important rhythm is and asked them how would they play in time with everyone else if they don't learn to count and their response was less than enthusiastic! I actually think maybe they're trying to prove me wrong, that they can play just fine without knowing rhythm!!
Very frustrating as they have potential! I blame it on their former teachers

VERY Dalcroze, Andante!

The way I say 'pineapple' naturally is quaver/two semis and 'pelican' is the reverse!

Oh that's fab. I have a study I'm doing at the moment and it's in 9/8 and the whole page is quavers. So in a way, the rhythm doesn't matter as it is the same throughout, but now I will be hoppity-skippity-skippity, hoppity-skippity-skippity for it. The most scary thing about the old G4 pieces I bought (for the 1990 exam that I actually took) was that it had stuff in 12/8 which changed to 6/8 and there were semi-quavers. Rhytms like this scare me a bit, only now they are just hoppity-skippity pineapples I think I'll be fine...!

I've been using sausages for triplets recently - and in one piece where there are triplet quavers followed by 2 quavers I used "sausages bacon". I'm a veggie but it seems to have worked with these particular pupils I suppose......!

My daughter's knowledge of the correct terms for note lengths is a bit hazy. She is learning in French, I tend to use the English ones and she is not particularly good at remembering new words anyway. The result is that a dotted crotchet has become a "bob the builder" (the first time she encountered one, it was followed by a quaver and two crotchets).

Yes, I'd agree with pineapple, although the reverse is peppermint.

I use Hickory Dickory and Humpty Dumpty for 6 quavers and crotchet/quaver patterns in 6/8 respectively.....although I quite often introduce 6/8 time by chanting and clapping "Oh dear what can the matter be?" (I usually change the next line to appeal to boys - "Little Johnny's stuck in the lavatory" ) and I use Flip-a-Rhythm to show the rhythms written out..........

It must depend on accent I think. Pelican is definitely a triplet here in Anglesey.

*Tries saying pelican in a Welsh accent* Yes, I see what you mean. Not in a southern English accent, though.

Am I wrong or is this the finest sentence ever written on the forums? New category please, Car Expert.

And if anyone wants to play a group of 15 notes, you know what to use now.

*Goes away humming 'Pel-i-can-is-def'-nite-ly-a-trip-let-here-in-An-gle-sey under her breath*

Crikey, why didn't I discover this forum earlier, these are some fantastic ideas! I particularly like hoppity-skippity I just wish half-term wasn't this week so I can see how it goes with them!

You see? It works on SO many levels.

Fabulous!

Been working with my youngest on the requirements for the aural for her grade 1 flute exam in a fortnight. (The peri leaves it to the school but the school doesn't bother..). She was having problems describing the rhythmic changes -so I said to see if "Bob the ..builder" fitted, then she could say it was a dotted rhythm. Worked really well- until we did one & when asked how it had changed she said "The 1st time it was "Bob the builder" & then it became "Can he fix it" . Not sure what the examiner will think if she says that in the exam !

Wonderful! I might use that one in lessons. She certainly 'hit the nail' on the head didn't she!!

haha - well said.

Excellent...I love it.