There has been a very lively discussion recently (not here but elsewhere) on the technique of circular breathing...principally used by Oboists and Clarinetists...I do know it is taught here at the conservatiores but it seems that its a much bigger issue in the USA...the debate rolls on and on over there

I wonder how many here are able to do it and if they use it during longer passages in pieces that they are playing...do you think it adds to a phrase by being able to extend it for example in the Richard Strauss Oboe concerto where it seems almost de riguer to use it in the long phrases also the second movement of the Hindemith...do you feel that natural breathing is better and lends itself to making a piece or phrase seem less mechanical or does the sheer mastery of this make a piece seem even more incredible...

How many of you have never tried this and would be interested in trying it, have you spoken to or have your teachers mentioned this technique to you...it seems valuable in some cases and not worth the effort in others...

Your thoughts please

Kindest regards

Andrew

I have heard Bill Watrous, one-time trombonist with Woody Hermann's "Herd", demonstrate the use of circular breathing in a lecture recital. He explained that Hermann had the habit of holding the last note of one of Wattrous's solos while he talked to the audience, so that Watrous decided that he ought to learn to play the last note longer than Hermann could hold his hand up. It took him six months of hard practice. As a jazz player he was usually amplified, so could use a narrow bore instrument and mouthpiece. I doubt if circular breathing would be practical on a modern orchestral trombone.

I dont think I know anyone on the woodwind forum who can circular breath. I had a brief attempt at trying to teach myself how to do it, I am able to circular breath without the flute, but cannot create a high enough pressure inside the mouth when breathing in through the nose to produce a sound out of the flute.

I wouldnt say that the UK conservatoires teach flautists how to circular breath, it may be different for the reeded instrumental teaching.

As for how it effects the music, I have seen it used very well where it has added to the musical line. It can however be worse than conventional breathing : I have a recording of a flute piece where you can hear the flautist sniffing in air throughout the phrase, which disrupts the music more than a normal breath might do.

I have to say circular breathing is amazing! I saw an oboist use it and it was very impressive!

but I can't do it!

I find circular breathing SO unmusical and unnatural...
Why on earth do you wish to make a musical phrase ( sentence ) last so so so long?

Sorry to sound really stupid, but what is circular breathing?

It is the ability to breathe in and out at the same time. By storing pcokets of air in your cheeks - not to dissimilar to the way a hamster stores food in its cheeks. Its quite difficult to explain.

I used when I used to play the bag pipes and find it very easy, but like sags says, it is quite difficult and different when applying it to the flute. I can do it, but not comfortably enough to actually use it when playing a piece!

Its a method of breathing where you dont take a proper breath through your mouth. Whilst blowing out, you are taking in air through the nose, which then comes out of the mouth hence 'circular breathing'

edit : Malone got there first!

My sister is an oboeist. She learnt circular breathing with her teacher while still at school - it was considered part of the standard oboe technique in these parts..

As I understand it, circular breathing is the technique of continuing to breathe in through the nose while blowing out through the mouth. It seems to involve puffing out your cheeks and going very red in the face. Completely unable to do it myself!

Playing the oboe in general makes you go red in the face, not the circular breathing - but you can look stupid when doing it with the puffing out cheeks! It looks natural when playing bagpipes - more of a purple faced look!!

Thanks!!! It sounds difficult!

I think where possible its a great technique to have. Unfortunately its far more difficult on the flute than reeded instruments due to the lack of resistance. I've not been able to get the hang of doing it with a flute although i can manage it without, not much use while playing though .

Someone mentioned it at a course i was at a while ago the flautist said she had learnt to do it at her conservatoire but had not found any need of it since. Still it would be nice to be able to do it if only to compete with oboists on phrase length.

I can do curcular Breathing on the clarinet oboe recorder
and organ
I have not on flute yet and I never need to.

ben again.

I can' tcircular breath, although I did try, I decided it was easier to work on my breath control, so I can generally extend phrases as long as is sensible. If I ever get round to it I may learn it, but I would be more concerned about tone etc. than being able to stand there for half an hour playing without a breath...

I can't see the point - for several reasons.
First, it strains even more of the head and neck area, causing tension.
Secondly, as has already been pointed out, it's unmusical. Music lives - it needs to breathe - phrases are there for a purpose; when listening, we will, if moved, adapt our own breathing to the music (and heart rates too). Audiences watching wind players will often find themselves uncomfortable in sympathy if a player is playing continuously for a long time, and when I was acting as accompanee for my husband in his music lesson, he was asked by his teacher to let his keyboard playing breathe too.
Thirdly, it encourages laziness too - if we don't have to think about when to breathe, we also risk not thinking about the shape of what we're playing.

Having said that, there are, of course, exceptions - the best one I can think of is the digeridoo . (Oh, and when I'm purring I do circular breathing, but the mechanism is a bit different ).

To my knowledge circular breathing is not a technique used by flautists...the very action of puffing the cheeks out like a pair of bellows to keep the air going whilst the player breathes in through the nose would throw a flautists embrouchure completely I suspect...but I'm not a flautist so I could be wrong...circular breathing tends to be an Oboist/clarinet thing as far as I know...

Flautists do use circular breathing, I have a few recording by flautists who use it, and you can clearly hear them sniffing through the nose to take the air in.

That organ must take a heck of a breath




well you live and learn...I honestly had no idea that flautists used circular breathing..

I can't do it at all.
I found this on youtube:
circular breathing on the flute
and it sounds so odd to me! I thought he would explode by the end of it I just kept thinking "breathe for goodness sake, BREATHE!!"
I can imagine it would be useful to use occasionally though - e.g. perhaps once or twice in a piece if it has a couple of very long phrases in - but not doing the whole piece without a breath!!

It is possible to let the music breath while not taking breaths yourself. I don't think it's necessarily a factor as the length of notes etc can still be varied by the method of tounging. In addition there are some passages where letting the music breath is desirable but taking a breath would be disastrous.

I would disagree you about laziness as well. The few times i have tried it i have had to concentrate far more on breathing to get the mechanism anywhere near accurate than i normally would. I suppose it does eventually become second nature but you still give as much consideration to what points to breath at as a flautist using normal breathing.

Just to clarify...I am not proposing the useage of circular breathing instead of breathing in the regular way...in some works as I used for example the Strauss Oboe concerto it is almost required as the phrases and suspensions are so incredibly long...apparantly Strauss himself had a penchant for these incredibly long phrases..just listen the Vier Litz Lieder (last four songs) the suspensions for the sporano are huge climbing with the orchestra...naturally singers are unable to circular breathe (no doubt if I'm wrong some of the singers will leap on that one) but I cannot see how a singer could circular breathe.

I am just interested to see how many of the reed players use this technique when its needed...and whether or not the teachers are teaching them how to do it...its not the easiest thing to master but useful when needed...

keep the comments coming...would be interesting to hear from some woodwind teachers to see if they cover this subject with their pupils

kindest regards

Andrew

Gah, that flute circular breathing made me feel quite ill, I needed him to breathe


I can't either, because once the breath is being stored for circular breathing, it's already passed where it can be made into sound.

I don't know that it is even particularly used by oboists. Leon Gossens (among other famous oboists) discouraged its use saying, as Anacrusis pointed out, that the audience tend to get rather worried when they say a very red-face oboist who has apparently stopped breathing.

One of the reasons a good oboist can play such long phrases (compared to the flute) is because the oboe actually uses such little air anyway, not because the oboists have to do circular breathing.

My teacher plays professionally and he doesn't use circular breathing.

I feel I should say once again I am not proposing this as an alternative to normal breathing but that are one or two works that it is almost essential...I accept that its not very pretty to watch though Holliger uses circular breathing in the Moazrt concerto which seems ludicrous but who am I to criticise...he is after all one of the foremost Oboists in the world...Mack also used it as did Vogel and De lancie, all major performers and well respected so its plainly not totally ###### Pooed by the great and the good...it does take years to get it right without destroying the tone...

I accept that not every professional player uses it but many do when needed to...




Doing the whole piece is not what circular breathing is about or used for generally it just comes in handy when a phrase is very long...

I'll take a look at the Youtube link...thanks for that

Probably not but its pretty impressive when its done well. There are certain pieces where circular breathing throughout would be quite useful e.g. Moto Perpetuo.

Yes, but you appear to be talking about the breathing, not the music - I'm talking about the music. Recently I tried learning a Bach sarabande, the one from the flute partita, and, sure, if I'd been able to do circular breathing, it would have allowed me to play those loooong phrases completely continuously - but because I don't use this technique, I really did have to think hard about how to shape it to avoid chopping the line of the music about. I've had to do similar for protracted fast passages of music originally written for violin (violinists only need to breathe to live, they say ) - it really does make you think about the shape of the music, and the relative importance of different notes. One of the pieces of which I'm thinking is distinctly moto perpetuo in approach, being made entirely of fast arpeggiated semiquavers - but even in such a piece, some notes need more time and stress than others; that helps decide how and where to take a breath.
Still think it is more of a "party piece" skill than a mainstream one...

My saxophone teacher that I had last year, knew how to circular breath. However this guy is at the top of his game - he plays as part of Sting's backing band, played with Jaco Postorious (bass player) + many more! Check him out at www.butch-thomas.com

He is an American, and as the first poster said it is quite common in American instrumentalists. For me, it would be a technique which I would want to learn on my saxophone. It can only be a good thing!!

My son saw Andy Sheppard last night and thought that the amount of circular breathing he uses really detracts from the music. I must admit that I don't really see the point, unless a composition particulary requires it. Also read somewhere that it's not very good for your health if you use it a lot (don't know whether that's true).

But chopping the line, even in the most sympathetic of places still has a noticable effect on the music. In the case of circular breathing there is no need to worry about disguising cuts in the line so you can instead focus on how it sounds, note lengths etc to get it sounding as good as possible. Too true about violinists though, i had to play a duet with one who seemed to speed up at any point which looked appropriate for a breath, i'm not even sure if circular breathing would have worked the way she was going . It probably is more of a party piece but realistically how often would we notice it being used anyway? Admittedly there are some extreme examples where people play whole pieces with it but for the most part its used to provide a bit of a boost before the next rest.

Slightly off topic but in the Partita what tempo(s) should be used for it?

There was a discussion on the Galway Network about it a while ago and there are no adverse health effects from it.

But breathing is part of the music! With a really good player, taking breaths doesn't come across as "cuts in the line" but contributes to "how it sounds." Most pianists are at some stage told that they need to "breathe." In fact a professional pianist who was talking to his thirteen-year-old page turner after the concert said that would-be pianists really ought to learn a wind instrument as well (even if they don't play it to a very high standard) because it is such a help in understanding how breathing makes music come alive.

I think as non-professional-level wind instrument players it is all too easy to think that if somehow we could solve the breathing problem then we would play so much better.

Im not sure if Im speaking complete rubbish here but......

Would you say that the way in which music is ruined by say people clapping in between movements of music becuase the silences are just as important to the notes played is similar the circular breathing ruining the music by removing the 'silences' out of a line of music?

Well said

Correction: breathing is part of Woodwind/Brass music.

In Piano, strings etc it is simply a matter of spacing and length of notes. Any "breathing" the pianist does has nothing to do with the lungs just the way they play the notes.

There were examples highlighted earlier of violin music etc being modified for the flute. Where this is done the composer wrote it with the intention that the line of music should be continuous i.e. no pauses for a quick breath. Therefore circular breathing would be a clear asset as it allows the piece to sound more inkeeping with the way the composer intended.

This theory may be completely wrong but my understanding is that most composers were either pianists or violinists so although they wrote music for wind instruments and were aware of the breathing aspect there are many exemplars of phrases which are simply too long to be played comfortably particularly with Romantic music and moreso on the flute due to the greater amount of air used. The composers may have been to at least some extent writing for their 'ideal' instrument so if it is possible to play longer phrases rather than adding breaths i think this is probably closer to the music the composer envisaged in writing it.

I don't think the distinction between professional and non professional comes into. Even on other instruments several examples have been given of high profile players using the technique and just as many exist who do not use it. In my view it would make the music sound better in certain circumstances but equally there are others where i don't think it would be acceptable e.g. as a cheat in Prelude a l'apres midi.



I would probably disagree in both circumstances. Admittedly its not considered de rigeur to applaude between movements but when it does occur it indicates an appreciation for the music already played which is in many ways more gratifying than that at the end purely because of its spontaneity.
I don't think removing the silences has anything to do with it as space is still created by variation in tounging etc. For good, or even reasonably good players, they should not have to rely on breathing to add effect to their playing that should come from the nuances of the intonation and textures used.

So why is it unacceptable to you there, with a very long phrase, but OK elsewhere?

It is demonstrably possible for it to be done in one breath. There is scope for circular breathing to be used as a method of avoiding taking in enough air, this would eventually decrease air capacity and have a negative effect on playing so it should be discouraged. In other passages it would be acceptable, in my view, because it is not humanly possible to play them in one breath.

Why do you need it on the pipes?

I wondered that - I thought that the bag on bagpipes was to stop you having to circular breathe??!

Of course if a performance is that amazing then clapping in between movements can be gratifying, I received applause after the 2nd movement of the Mozart Flute and Harp concerto I did earlier this year. (thats not to say it was great ) Admittedly I would have prefered for there to be a longer silence at the end of the movement which I feel the music requires, and once the clapping starts its a matter of knowing what to do, look at the audience and acknowledge it? Look at the conductor and try and start the next movement? Even in my orchestral playing where the audience has clapped in between movements the conductor has been quick just to start the next movement, not waiting for the applause to die down!

I cant actually circular breath on the flute so could not comment on whether the variation on tonguing to create space is possible, I have only ever heard and seen it used in long legato lines where taking a breath is a possible place of disruption to the line. Can I ask if you circular breath, and know if it is actually possible?

Of course I know this. I happen to play the piano and violin as well as the oboe and recorder (which require very different types of breath control). However, I maintain that the experience of playing an instrument which physically forces you to think about phrasing does have an effect on how you think about piano music.


But surely once you start playing violin music on the flute you are NOT playing it the way the composer intended regardless of how many breaths you do or don't take.


I maintain that professional players do NOT rely on breathing to add effect. I get hung up about where I am going to breathe, my teacher does not.

And as for saying that in certain music circular breathing is a "cheat" and in others it is not, this completely bypasses your arguments about musicality and playing the way the composer intended. Who decides what is "humanly" possible?

No i've never managed to get the action right for circular breathing. My teacher has demonstrated it on the oboe a few times and he's definitely had clearly defined gaps between notes when required from use of different intonations. The action of circular breathing is normally used on longer notes where possible to give time to switch between the two as in legato passages but it is also adaptable to more rapid lines.

I think to a certain extent we might be overemphasising the differences between the two types of breathing once the air is taken in by whatever method we still play in the same way with all the variations in note length, stresses etc you would normally use. In the case of circular breathing we just have more flexibility to decide what direction the music should take without the restriction of air capacity.

[quote name='kerioboe' date='May 25 2007, 07:11 PM' post='520458']
Of course I know this. I happen to play the piano and violin as well as the oboe and recorder (which require very different types of breath control). However, I maintain that the experience of playing an instrument which physically forces you to think about phrasing does have an effect on how you think about piano music.
[quote]

Quite possibly it makes you more sympathetic to other players and the needs they have to play the part well but in breathing the pianist does not have to stop playing. What do you have against wind players having the same advantage?

[quote]
But surely once you start playing violin music on the flute you are NOT playing it the way the composer intended regardless of how many breaths you do or don't take.
[quote]

Yes but once we have already made such a major change as an instrument it is surely important that the music remains as true to the original as possible.

[quote]
I maintain that professional players do NOT rely on breathing to add effect. I get hung up about where I am going to breathe, my teacher does not.

And as for saying that in certain music circular breathing is a "cheat" and in others it is not, this completely bypasses your arguments about musicality and playing the way the composer intended. Who decides what is "humanly" possible?
[/quote]

You did say that gaps for breathing were "part of the music" and "contributes to how it sounds". That would imply that it adds an effect to the music at whatever level it is played.

We know for a fact that Debussy intended the line to be unbroken so much so that he hired multiple flautists to ensure the phrases remained in tact. With modern instruments almost any experienced player can manage the phrases without taking a breath,circular or otherwise, indeed it has became the norm. As i pointed out earlier we know it is possible with normal breathing techniques hence there is no requirement for using circular breathing, as this would have adverse effects on the player's ability to play and would become an artificial support as opposed to a beneficial technique.

Why didnt he just score it for 2 flutes passing the line onto each other if he was going to do that??

You'd need to ask him i suppose .
He had probably hoped one flautist would manage it but found the reality was rather different.
It has been a while since i read about it though so i can't be certain on it.

You are conflating two of my arguments.
I don't particularly like the word "gap" as it suggests something's missing but yes music does need to have pauses, however slight and the physical need to breathe provides these pauses on wind/brass instruments. Obviously this is not the only thing that contribues to a musical interpretation and I quite agree that articulation/tonguing, vibrato, dynamics, rubato (if appropriate) etc. also play a very important role.

I don't have anything against circular breathing but I think that are a lot more useful techniques that could be learnt first, particularly when you see the length of phrase that an advanced player can play in one breath - an oboist on another board, for example, says his comfortable length for each note when warming up playing long tones is one minute. I don't know what level you are but I do know that almost all of the people learning the oboe that I have met tend to think that their playing would automatically be a lot better if they didn't have to breathe quite so often. This is in fact not true. I have heard both my teacher and Pascal Saumon (a Parisian solo oboist who has recorded several CDs) demonstrate that it is possible to play very musically while taking lots of breaths (ie they have played a piece breathing not where they would do themselves but adding all the extra breaths that a student needs). Concentrating on breathing should not be at the expense of all the other techniques necessary for a musical interpretation.

However those pauses do not have to be created by breathing on a wind/brass instrument. There are times when it is very simple to breath normally but there are also occasions in rapid runs or in legato passages or even to avoid splitting a phrase in two where it would be desirable to not breath but have a feeling of space. In such cases it makes sense to use circular breathing but the space or pause can still be present through other techniques which are not as limiting as taking a breath.

I'm not an oboist so as far as level goes there is none. I do know that on flute there is lung capacity which is the major limiting factor beyond that ther are two methods of prolonging air supply that i'm aware of one is diaphramatic 'bounces' where you take in air as a subsiduary motion the other is circular breathing (I've probably not explained the former very well). However once basic techniques are learnt there are not any techniques for breathing that i am aware of which are as useful as circular breathing. There are extended techniques related to other areas of course but their use is quite limited whereas circular breathing can be applied to almost any genre.

The examples you highlight are quite interesting but it would be quite disappointing if professionals were unable to make what, to them, must be relatively simple repertoire sound good even if extra breaths are added. In addition if students were taught to circular breath earlier it would allow them to avoid excessive breathing to the extent where they could equal and surpass the 1 minute mark and in association with other skills deliver a performance which would sound as good as and in many cases better than their peers reliant on more breaths.

I'm not aware that i said at any point that people should concentrate on (circular) breathing to the exclusion of other techniques indeed as i pointed out earlier a reasonable proficiency with breathing should be acquired first as well as tounging etc.

I am impressed that my simple question has sparked such a lively debate...I am reading with great interest..

I do feel that maybe too much concern maybe being made over what is principally a useful skill...and I do feel that as such it has its place in the musicians bag of tricks...Again I site the Strauss as my example where it can be used to great effect but I do not feel that it is an option over regular breathing and phrasing which like the spoken sentence needs pause/breath to make the poem work...sure there are many players who have collosal breathing capacity and some composers do write works considering that one instrument in the section will cover the other while one takes a snatch of air...in one or two cases however this simply doesnt happen and at this point the ability to be able to fall back on a circular breath to extend the playing phrase it can very useful...

Interestingly this technique seems far more widely accepted overseas as standard than it has been recieved here...

just my thoughts and observations

Kindest regards

Andrew

Bump for sarah sax

there's an article about circular breathing in the latest CASS magazine