Do they not count as qualifications?

Maybe they do, depends what you think they make you suitable to do, but it isn't usual to put your music grade results as a qualification..............unless anyone knows different?

I didn't think it was usual either.

To give myself as an example, what qualifications do I then put in that box, given that I don't have any 'official' ones? I don't have a degree yet nor have I had time or money to do a course such as CTABRSM.

If I was filling something like that in I think I'd leave it blank.

Then one looks stupid and as if they are unable to teach because they have no qualifications... I personally don't think it gives a good impression...oh well.

Then again there is the recurring theme on here that some people think you are stupid (or a liability) teaching if you have grade 8.

I think graded music exams are qualifications, and whilst the exam boards are keen to make the disclaimer that they 'don't qualify a person to teach' they're still qualifications. They certify a certain standard of playing, which is clearly relevant to teaching an instrument.... Just because they're not letter bearing, it doesn't mean they're not qualifications. GCSEs are qualifications, put those in if you want.

I's not like you're pretending they're something else - it would be different if 'Grade 8 Piano' really indicated membership of some organisation which didn't require examination.

I put my grade 8 sax and grade 6 piano on my musicteachers entry. Anyone asking me for lessons in these could then decide if they were happy with that on top of my teaching diploma and degree, or if it had to be someone with a diploma in said instrument.

But as YAP rightly said, the board specifically say their exams do not qualify you to teach (including FRSM teaching ).

If you are advertising that you offer lessons in a particular instrument then I think you should put the level to which you play that instrument so, as neil clarinet said, people can judge whether they are happy with a Grade 6/7/8 teacher or prefer to go with someone with a diploma. If you're not offering lessons in that instrument then I don't think there's any need to say to what level you play. For example, I've got Grade 6 in violin but wouldn't dream of putting it as a qualification when advertising for pupils as I haven't touched my violin for 30 years and probably wouldn't be able to remember the basics.

But I always thought that certain ABRSM grades were equivalent to GCSEs and A-levels. Surely, the grades count as qualifications, certainly in the music world.




But to put into perspective: a person may have taught maths in a private school for decades, have a BSc, MSc, PhD in Maths, have a 100% exam success rate etc. But without a recognised PGCE or other teaching qualification, they're officially not 'qualified' to teach.

But then I know parents who have no teaching qualifications whatsoever, yet seem to 'teach' their children an awful lot!

Steve

The first thing I do upon seeing postnominals I haven't heard of is to Google them

I happened to notice a (previously unseen) ad in our local free paper a few minutes before catching up on this thread ... the teacher is claiming to have A Mus A.

Ok it might be a misprint - but I didn't think I'd heard of it. A quick (admittedly very quick) google produced nothing. Anyone know what it is?

It's a performance diploma in Australia, Maggie.

sorry i think this is disrepectful to anyone who has studied in india

oh thank you nic - I am suitably reassured!

If you do a BA at Oxford or Cambridge, 2 years after graduating they give you an MA for a small fee......

4 years - it's 21 terms after matriculation. And to be perfectly honest, I don't actually recall having to pay anything for mine
You also get them from Dublin, and if you want to know why, look here

It's only the grade exams and performance diplomas that don't, the teaching diplomas do offer certification of one's teaching abilities.


True but their academic qualification is part of the whole package of the qualification to teach, without the degree one couldn't get the PCGE and wouldn't be allowed to teach the subject anyway. So the two things together qualify one to teach, not just the teaching qualification alone.

The grade exams in the instruments one teaches are, therefore, relevant; but I agree grades in other instruments aren't relevant (may even look bad if it looks like one is planning to teach those instruments with only low grades oneself). Except perhaps in the case where one wants to encourage, say, adult learners and to show that one knows of the experience of learning as an adult by putting recently achieved qualifications on there. Those wouldn't be any help in that instance without some explanation to that effect though.

I'm all for the Oxbridge/TCD use of the MA, even though I don't have one myself. It's a nice little bit of history which they've kept going - the practice was started in the middle ages. One can only get an MA if one has a degree, though, so it's only as fake as, say, joining a learned society which requires a degree for admission. The small fee to convert BA to MA is a money-making scheme, that much is true, but they are given out for free - academic staff, for instance, who don't have a degree from the institution are given an MA ad eundem if they have a degree from elsewhere.

My husband says they'll give you the MA (assuming you get the Bachelor's degree) as long as you've paid all your college bills

So Oxbridge give out MA's for free, whereas students at other universities have to pay tuition fees and spend a few more years at uni to get an MA, how is that fair? Or am I misunderstanding? .

Excuse me, but can we cut out this 'merely joining an organisation'! I wish to set the record straight.

I am a physics graduate and to hold AMInstP (Associate Member of the Institute of Physics), for which one requires a BSc Physics.

MInstP and FInstP require post-graduate physics qualifications or a good number of years relevant experience at the same level. Proof of your academic status is required before any membership is granted, and as you pass up through the ranks other members have to supply professional references as to your suitability for acceptance.

The Institute of Physics DOES NOT just hand out memberships to those who fancy sticking a few letters after their name. I have AMInstP and this verifies not only that I have an accredited qualification in physics, but that I also hold professional recognition of the same.

Similarly FRAS (Fellow of the Royal Astonomical Society) is only granted on those who have contributed to some work that is professionally recognised and therefore you are nominated by another Fellow.

However, Members of the Royal Institution (the place that runs the Christamas Lectures that are shown on Channel 4) are allowed to put MRI or FRI (for fellows) after their name, simply by joining that organistion and paying their annual fee. For this reason, I am not a member.

Glad you've asked that question. I worked hard for mine. Hope someone here can enlighten us

I discovered recently that the MA from Oxbridge is a historical aspect.

Many centuries ago when Oxford and Cambridge first began their degrees, a student studied for a total of seven years. They were awarded an intermediate Bachelor qualification and then a Masters degree on completion.

These days the 'university of life' takes over the final years of Oxbridge study, hence why they are allowed to claim an MA after several years in the working world.

Katyjay will be able to supply you with a lot more details if you require them.

Excuse me, but I said that in my very first reply on this thread. Had you bothered to read on and take in other replies, I was querying what one needed to do to gain such memberships etc etc because to me at first, yes they were "merely joining an organisation".



So basically, Oxbridge students do a normal 3/4 year degree just like the rest of us. We all go into the working world and 3 years or so later they can claim an MA, whereas we'd have to go back and study to get one?!

Thanks Amanda, hubby was in the same position until he got his PhD, now he's MinstP CPhys. However if he joined the Royal Meterology Society he's effectively "buy" a FRMetS.

Given I'm currently working for LRSM and planning to do FRSM through the slogging it out, I find the idea of paying for post-nominals a little dist-tasteful.

As for Oxford and Cambridge MAs. If I see the Letters MA(Cantab) PhD, I know exactly that that person did not do an additional course for their masters degree, they just went to Cambridge and became a full Member of their college.

Nat, you're still young and studying for a degree. You'll soon have a set of letters behind you so don't panic...and it will mean the world to you as you will know you earnt them.

Gah! I am not panicking! Am I not allowed to question things I do not understand and therefore deem unfair? Sheesh, what is the world coming to!?

If you look at the wikipedia link I posted, there is a section in there about the history of the awarding of MAs and the rationale behind continuing to do so.

As jod said, if you study for an MA you will get to put MA after your name; but if you get one of the 'freebies' you get awarded MA(Oxon), MA(Cantab) or MA(Dubl). So you can distinguish it from a 'real' (i.e. post graduate) masters degree.

Of course you're allowed to question...especially with this subject as you've already revealed its a minefield.

The Oxbridge/TCD MA isn't a 'degree' as such though - it's a membership pass for the decision making body of the university. If they actually want a master's degree they have to go back and do an extra year like everyone else to get an MSc or whatever. Employers are well aware of this.

I agree with your point entirely, memberships that represent something and have meaningful entrance requirements do have a use. Many of these are helpful to people when applying for jobs: certain professsions require certain memberships, which aren't easy to come by; and in many others one has an advantage through posessing a respected membership. If they represent an accredited degree plus some level of experience then they are useful and will be considered by employers. The same with the MA(Oxon) et. al. most people know what that means and it does have to be earnt: requires a degree from one of these institutions after all. It's not a masters degree, but I don't think that most people would count it as one.

I personally could not understand why anyone would put memberships that are simply bought (with no, or very trivial entry requirements) as postnominals following their names though. What's the point? As soon as someone asks 'what did you do for that' one has to say 'I paid £5 a year for it' and quite frankly looks rather silly, or has to try and make up something to make it sound like one has done something. Using these letters really does detract from the real qualifications in there too: how many memberships will one look up and find out to be pay for only before just assuming the rest will be similar.

Then I apologise unreservedly.

I was merely pondering about unusual qualifications and remembered that one. I haven't hear it mentioned for many years and wondered if it was still going, that's all. I think the original idea was to show that someone had been to college. Sorry my question offended you.

cd MA(Cantab)...............etc etc etc (I'm not going to list all my others...........)

France has a lot of competitive exams in two parts. First you sit a written exam. If you pass this you are "admissible" and are then allowed to sit the oral exam. If you pass this you are "admis" (ie have passed everything). The really prized place to study for an Arts degree in France is the "Ecole Normale" either in Paris or in Lyons. People say that they are "sous admissible" at one of these places. The first time I heard it I thought it was a joke - a bit like saying I almost got a place at Oxbridge but it really does exist (it is the first thirty or so people with the highest fail mark) and people are proud of it.

As I recall I had to pay all my college bills just for the BA at Durham


Me neither, AP.

But outside the UK I doubt that very many employers would know this (certainly not in the USA).

Well, this topic has lain dormant for many years, but I stumbled upon it and thought that it raised an interesting point which I am sure that I made on another forum, only to find that my entire post had mysteriously disappeared (I am not sure whether it was removed for being controversial or whether there was a genuine technical error).

In asking this question I'd like to make it clear that I am not judging or criticising anybody; I am genuinely interested to know what people have to say.

The question is (and I think it comes in several parts!), what is the motivation behind the acquisition of a new qualification? What is the motivation behind the acquisition of a "qualification" for which one has, arguably, not had to put in a great amount of work, or which perhaps has required a certain amount of work, but which has significant overlap with an existing qualification at the same level? What benefits, personal or professional, have people gained from holding qualifications, especially where the qualification has little practical use?

It is fairly obvious to me what point there is in taking university degrees, diplomas awarded by universities or other accredited examination boards, and professional qualifications. I also see the point of holding honours that genuinely reward excellence (honorary degrees, Royal Academician, Fellow of the British Academy, Fellow of the Royal Society, etc), but there are other strings of letters that people use that don't actually seem to represent much of an achievement at all.

For example, one of my old university tutors, a woman internationally renowned as one of the finest scholars in her field, became an FRAS (Fellow of the Royal Asiatic Society). I was rather surprised to find that, too, could become one of these ("The normal method of application is to be proposed and seconded by current Fellows. However, those who do not know any Fellows can submit a short CV and the names of two referees who can vouch for their interest in Asian studies." -- With a master's degree in Asian studies I think I could easily fulfil those criteria.) The FRSA is rather similar: "Fellowship is open to anyone anywhere in the world who shares or demonstrates a commitment to positive social change in their professional, civic or personal life." Fellows of the RSA do often try to claim that it is some kind of an honour, or that the entry requirements are very stringent, but I believe that it is widely accepted that one just has to pay for it. As pointed out above, the Royal Institution really does just let members of the public buy some letters. In my own field, there is something called the Royal Historical Society, which confers FRHistS. This is open to anybody who has published a book or a series of articles in the field of history, or who has organised exhibitions, collections, or conferences, or edited a local history publication. Should my thesis ever get published (either as a book or a series of articles) I'm in two minds as to whether I'd go for this one. On the one hand, it does recognise actual achievement, or some distinguished scholars do hold the fellowship, but on the other hand it is just something for which one applies, if one has met the criteria, and then pays for on an annual basis, and which a majority of published historians do not bother with. It looks a little like vanity to me, and may be a case of less being more.

In the musical field there is the FASC and the junior qualification of AASC, though as anybody who is enthusiastic about early music and who is willing to promote the Academy can become an FASC I'm not sure what the point is of there being an AASC. I would certainly be qualified for FASC, but I don't think I'd ever take it up as I would just feel silly writing 'FASC' after my name, especially when I had to tell people that it just meant that I am enthusiastic about early music and that I am willing to promote the ASC. I even wonder whether some people are actually taken in and think that somebody really is very distinguished for having one of these sets of letters. When I first saw the FASC and AASC distinctions I actually assumed that they were high honours bestowed by the Accademia Nazionale di Santa Cecilia. Fellow of the Metropolitan College of Music is a somewhat opaque one: it recognises anybody who has made a contribution to the world of music. But the main thing is, who is recognising it? I could set up my own music college and start awarding diplomas and telling people that they can wear academic dress, but it would mean nothing. There is a wide array of these organisations that seem to be of dubious standing: Faculty of Liturgical Musicians, Faculty of Young Musicians, Irish Guild of Organists and Choristers, Guild of Musicians and Singers, Norwich School of Church Music, etc. Many seem to be connected with church music and to have some crossover in membership with the Burgon Society.

Then there are the unaccredited examination boards. How worthwhile is it to hold diplomas from the North and Midlands School of Music, National College of Music, Victoria College of Music, etc?

And why do people feel the need to gain, say, the FRSM diploma, and then to follow it up with FTCL and FLCM, and even FVCM etc?

well this was the question in your original post so I'm guessing this is the point you are making. Answer is lots of reasons for example:

1. For the same reason that I have 3 Grade 7's, 2 Grade 8's and 4 Grade 5's. They are in different subjects/ instruments.

2. They may be teaching people at these levels and wanted to personally experience the different boards themselves to help other people through them.

3. They may enjoy having something to work towards and do it for the process rather than the qualifications. Nothing to do with feeling the need, but more about wanting to do them for the fun of it and to focus their practice.

A surgeon with MAIM after his name! That made me laugh for several minutes! (Ok, I know that it is't really but it struck me as so funny!)

Thanks, an interesting answer, and I think that that does go some way to explaining things.

There is a certain person, whom I shan't name, who is, I think, in part responsible for my curiosity. He possesses a BA, MMus, and PhD in music, FLCM, FVCM, and FNCM by thesis, DipABRSM, ALCM, and FNCM in piano performance, LNCM and FVCM in composition, FNCM in voice teaching, ANCM in piano teaching, AMusNCM and LMusNCM in music theory, and DASM (Advanced Diploma Programme for Musicians) from Independent Contemporary Music Awards.

Perhaps he just likes getting postnominals. Nothing wrong with that, is there?...

I know who you are on about Jonathan hehe

Nothing wrong with it whatsoever. It is, however, something of a niche interest. I am just intrigued that somebody would collect so many qualifications. Presumably at some point one says, enough music diplomas, time to get an Open University diploma in biochemistry. Incidentally, I was disappointed when the OU rebranded most of its old diplomas as DipHE, which looks very ugly to me. Yes, honestly, I would choose to do a qualification based partly on how decorative I thought it looked! It used to offer something called Diploma in European Humanities, which I always thought sounded rather good.

Anyway, all these qualifications are at worst harmless fun. It becomes more sinister when an intention to deceive is involved. When I was at school we had a headmaster who boasted Bachelor of Philosophy (Hons) (nobody needs to state that a degree was with honours if it is from an English university, as it just means that one got a minimum of a third, and no other teacher in the entire school was allowed to list their 'Hons' after the degree), Master of Education (later rumoured to be a fake), Member of the British Psychological Society (by virtue of a degree in psychology and on payment of a fee, despite not actually working as a psychologist), Fellow of the College of Preceptors (by virtue of professional position/existing qualifications and on payment of a fee), Member of the Institute of Management (ditto), and FRSA (ditto). This may also sound harmless, but it was somewhat in keeping with his personality and the fact that he subsequently resigned following suspension during an investigation into financial irregularities.

I'm more concerned about whether my rice is cooked yet.

It seems these days that all degrees are Honours degrees - but that certainly wasn't the case when I did mine.

I'd have thought that getting all steamed up about somebody with an alphabet soup of qualifications might be an activity more suited to someone who has none.
Doesn't bother me.

Mine's not, and as far as I know, those coming after me don't get honours degrees either.
It's one of those weird anomalies - a double-barrelled not-honours degree giving one the right to the honorary title of "Dr" .
One reason that I'm Mrs Harpsidoc outside of work .

Rather than somebody with three master's degrees.



Presumably the conjoint degrees of bachelor of medicine bachelor of surgery. Yes, that is an exception that I hadn't thought of.

On reflection, this may seem a rather petulant response. To provide some context, when I was at primary school my parents were advised that I should be sent to a special secondary school for children with learning disabilities as it was considered that I could not benefit from mainstream education. Winning the Greek New Testament prize at Oxford and going on to graduate at the top of my department at the School of Oriental and African Studies and with distinction from UCL perhaps therefore means more to me than it would to somebody with a different background. When I was being interviewed by the Professor of Latin at UCL, being asked to explain why I wanted to read for a PhD at the college, the reason I instinctively gave was that I was driven to seek to achieve at the highest possible academic level. This may also explain my curiosity about other people's motivations for the pursuit of qualifications, sometimes seemingly relentlessly.