Hello,

I am planning to change from my student violin bow to a much older French or German bow.

I have seen many for-sale on the internet, including from westcountryviolins.

Could anyone offer guidance to the amount I should be looking to pay a good bow?

I am currently at grade 6, playing pieces also from the grade 7.

Any thoughts on the westcountryviolins range?

Thank you

Don't buy anything without trying it first. Set yourself a budget then try as many bows within you budget as you can. Don't discount new bows either there are some good new bows out there. You'll need to try them out over a period of time and with different styles of playing to see which is going to be the best for you.

Quite right. A "much older French bow" is going to cost an awful lot. Carbon fibre is considered by most to play better than a wood bow of the same money, or even of much more money until you get well into four figures, and is therefore well worth looking at.

Liz

Hi SNJ,

If you want a wood bow have a look at Marco Raposo bows or maybe a swiss bow by Ernst (you'll find them with a google search). Both are about £500 for a silver mount and play well. I also have a Glasser carbon fibre bow (silver mounted) I bought from Liz, it is great.

Jon

Can a bow really make that much difference to warrent these prices? I'd no idea you could pay so much. I mean a cheap bow with no weight or spring to it I can understand is next to useless but a bow priced at four figures? What are you actually paying for?

Is this money for the fripparies ie silver mount/mother of pearl stuff or do they have some magic quality. I can understand what makes such a difference in the quality of violins but I can't see how a decently made bow can be much improved to such an extent. Maybe if I tried one I'd know but the relatively simple mechanics of the bow makes me wonder. I'm probably being naive in this questioning please put me to rights on this.

Cheers Goldfinch

If anyone's in any doubt about the difference a good bow makes, just go to a good dealer, tell them you're looking at upgrading your bow and ask to try a few to see what the differences are. I also suggest trying something that costs, say, at least half as much again as the most that you think you might pay just to have an insight into what the difference would be to go for the next level.

Spend a couple of hours of a spare afternoon in a good violin shop and prepare to be informed.

As to 'rules of thumb' for bows, when Caswell's were in Bristol their catalogue used to give a rough guide as to what might be an approximate spend to achieve (rather than playing at now) a certain level. This was before the widespread growth of carbon bows but, for violin bows, it used to be something like

Grade 6/7 £200-300
Grade 8 / county youth orch - £300-£500
Music college £500-£1500

Although these are now a few years old I still use them as a fairly reliable guide.
The most important thing at this level is playability, which is mainly a combination of weight, balance and strength of stick. I would be looking for a good pernambuco stick but would not worry about whether the mounts were silver or anything fancy.

You will know a good bow when you know you are playing with something that really feels that it's lifting the style of your playing.

Everyone's violin and playing style are different which makes choosing a bow sometimes even more of an individual choice than choosing an instrument. Also, for some reason, different, but even quite similar bows can make the same instrument sound quite different - listen especially for any surface noise, and how 'pure' your violin sounds.

A good bow makes a huge difference for a skillful player as it will feel just like an extension of the arm.

A beginner wouldn't notice the difference between a cheap bow and an expensive bow, as they wouldn't have sufficient technical skills.

There is a huge variation in the quality of wood used to make bows. The best wood is of course the most expensive. As Pernambuco (the wood used for the best bows) is now rare and an endangered species there are restictions on the export of this wood from Brazil, so existing stocks of this wood are valuable. Cheaper bows are made of cheaper materials (lower quality pernambuco, other woods, fibreglass or other materials). Pernambuco is a particularly strong dense wood with good resonant qualities.

Ideally a bow will produce a smooth sound with clear focus that is quick to respond (ie a stronger, stiffer bow). The bow will need to be of a good weight (not too heavy or too light) and well balanced (ie it should not feel light or heavy at the tip or frog). The time taken, and skill required, to make a well balanced bow is reflected in the cost of the bow.

If a bow is not well-balanced or too heavy or too light it will be difficult to produce the wide variety of bow strokes (legato, spiccato, sautille, ricochet etc). It will feel as though you are fighting against the bow rather than it just being an extension of your arm.

Also, the price reflects not just the quality of the wood, but the fact that the quality cannot be determined until several hours have been spent working the wood only to find an irreparable defect. I believe that three out of four bow sticks have to be discarded - you are paying for a lot of wasted, expensive wood, and wasted working time.

Cheaper woods such as Brazilwood can work well to begin with but do not last in the longer term. I have a nice old German bow that suits me (paid £400 ten years ago) but if I were looking for a new bow now I would seriously consider carbon fibre.

As others have said, try as many bows as you can and buy the best you can afford. It is well worth the investment - it is hard enough to play the violin without struggling with a cheap bow. Take out a bank loan if necessary!

Just make sure you insure it properly, as bows are more vulnerable than violins, I think.

You're paying for a stick, plain and simple. And yes, it does make a big difference. That said, I have never yet got my hands on anything priced higher than £1800. That £1800 bow was the only one I found that played better than my carbonfibre bow (and no, I didn't buy it, even if I had the money the difference was not huge by any means and it cost about 15 times more than mine. If the weight suits you, carbonfibre is incredibly hard to beat)



No magic quality at all. The only possible advantage of say a silver or gold mount is that generally these are not used on cheap bows, so the fact that it has a silver of gold mount tells you it isn't a cheap bow. And once you get above a certain price point you simply won't be able to get a nickel mounted bow.

I am a great fan of Glasser as most know but I was surprised to find that the silver mounted bow did not have a better stick than the nickel mounted. I would have expected it to have a better stick in view of the price differential, and that price differential is even more extreme with the gold mounted one (I've never tried the gold mounted one but I assume that it is still the same stick).

Liz

Well thank you everyone for putting me right on this. I've had the same bow for years but I've no idea how good/bad it is in relation to others except it was much superior to one my granddad gave me. It's got me thinking but how about this for a brain teaser: is it worth spending more on a bow than my violin is worth? Is there an equation which would make it more worthwhile to upgrade a bow rather than upgrade a violin? (apart from the obvious answer of upgrading both).

But thanks again. I can now blame any bowing deficiencies on my bow. (seriously only joking - don't answer that!).

Rule of thumb again - if you're happy with your violin and not planning to upgrade, about 30%-40% of value of violin.

Some carbon fibre bows will come out cheaper, but I can't stress enough how much of a personal choice it is.

And there is only one way to find out....... (there should be a smiling version of this, please, mods!)

I've just bought a Marco Raposo bow for £360, it's loverly, it's helping my playing no end and it's really pretty as well - pernumbuco but very light in colour.
And yes, bows do make a very noticable difference, I tried loads of different ones before I settled on mine and one was a £550 which was loverly and made so much of a difference, but I just couldn't stretch that far.
But what I would say is don't rule any bows out, by material, cost or maker. Although there are better makers etc., alot comes down to personal preferance and playing style so it is essential to try before you buy.

Sorry to be a pest everyone but all this is a bit of a relevation to me - especially as it's my birthday in a couple of months - I'm getting big ideas!! I've been out the loop for many years and as I remember my violin teacher chose my bow for me - I wasn't at a very high level at the time - just a 'shows promise level'. I remember choosing my violin but not my bow which is why I'm a bit ignorant of such matters. So these carbon fibre bows - not sure what 'carbon fibre' is but presumably not natural like wood - err - plastic? Taking into consideration what everyone is saying, is the difference mainly aesthetic ie., natural vs. synthetic?

And this leads me to my next question : if you buy 'old' quality bow are you paying purely for the quality or is their an 'antique' element included in the price?

Yes, I confess it is a bit of a mystery to me why teachers choose bows for pupils since bows are such individual things.


There's basically threee types of artificial bow. At the bottom end there is fibreglass, the best known brand in the UK being P&H (though I think Glasser is probably the best known fibreglass bow worldwide). Above that there is "carbon composite" (confusingly often called "carbon fibre") which is something different to "carbongraphite" which is also, confusingly, called carbon fibre! UK examples of carbon composite include the Westbury bows, and there are several Chinese examples. I have no idea what is in the composite apart from carbon. Again, worldwide I guess the best known would be Glasser (being a US outfit has its advantages!) Then above that you have the true carbon graphite bows of which the best known brands are Coda and Arcus, and there are varying grades of those too. Some carbongraphite bows, and all composite and fibreglass bows as far as I know, are hollow in the middle, and some carbongraphite bows are not, they're solid with fibres running all the way through. The weight of carbonfibre bows varies as much as wood bows - Arcus are very light, Glasser are medium to heavy, not sure about Coda.




Certainly a bow by a well known maker will command a high price. Not sure if it goes beyond that.

Really the best advice is to try some. You can have bows on approval from any reputable dealer, including online ones (posting bows is cheap and easy)

Liz

[quote name='elidatrading' date='Jun 18 2007, 11:35 PM' post='535441']
[quote name='Goldfinch' post='535387' date='Jun 18 2007, 10:43 PM']

[quote]So these carbon fibre bows - not sure what 'carbon fibre' is but presumably not natural like wood - err - plastic? Taking into consideration what everyone is saying, is the difference mainly aesthetic ie., natural vs. synthetic? [/quote]
There's basically threee types of artificial bow. At the bottom end there is fibreglass, the best known brand in the UK being P&H (though I think Glasser is probably the best known fibreglass bow worldwide). Above that there is "carbon composite" (confusingly often called "carbon fibre") which is something different to "carbongraphite" which is also, confusingly, called carbon fibre! UK examples of carbon composite include the Westbury bows, and there are several Chinese examples. I have no idea what is in the composite apart from carbon. Again, worldwide I guess the best known would be Glasser (being a US outfit has its advantages!) Then above that you have the true carbon graphite bows of which the best known brands are Coda and Arcus, and there are varying grades of those too. Some carbongraphite bows, and all composite and fibreglass bows as far as I know, are hollow in the middle, and some carbongraphite bows are not, they're solid with fibres running all the way through. The weight of carbonfibre bows varies as much as wood bows - Arcus are very light, Glasser are medium to heavy, not sure about Coda.


[quote]And this leads me to my next question : if you buy 'old' quality bow are you paying purely for the quality or is their an 'antique' element included in the price?
[/quote]

Certainly a bow by a well known maker will command a high price. Not sure if it goes beyond that.

Really the best advice is to try some. You can have bows on approval from any reputable dealer, including online ones (posting bows is cheap and easy)

Liz
[/quote]

Wow thanks. This is all an ongoing revelation to me. I'm just getting so excited!!! I think I'm playing with a serviceable bog-standard bow!!. I'm totally in love with my violin and would never change her (I mean I've no desire to become a concert violinist, which is a pretty sensible desire not to have! I just play for the love of it) but this 'bow factor' - wow. Mine has this gooey tape around it and - dare I say it - I've always thought it may be a bit low-grade and feeble - oh - there - I've said it (not to worry it's asleep in it's case and totally oblivious of what I'm saying) as I never picked it in the first place I'm not 'wedded' to it - I'll never let it go but it might have a friend before the year is out!!! Am I glad I picked up this thread.

Cheers my dears, I'm really so happy about this knowlege you have all brought me - and so indepth and so informative. Now can you all do a whip round for me or shall I just show Mr Goldfinch these postings and he can start saving for my birthday prezzie NOW.

This is Mr Goldfinch.
This is Mrs Goldfinch.

Assuming that there will be some overflow from the "violin for post-grade 8 student" thread, here goes with a related question:

At the post-grade-8 through university level, what are the bow makers/brands (pernambuco or carbon) that people are looking at?

At this level (that is, solid skills but not playing to packed concert halls just yet!), is the price of an old bow really worth it?

Who are the up-and-coming young makers for good-but-still-affordable new pernambuco bows?

How about carbon bows and related technologies? It's a few years since I checked this field out thoroughly - what are the makers/prices for "good" bows like now? (Glasser is not so dominant in Japan, so I'd be interested in hearing about as many brands as possible!)

I can only answer about carbon fibre at this level. The big names are Coda and Arcus. There are others. One we have always wanted to try (but never been able to raise the money for a sample order) is Leopold.

Liz

Thanks Liz - I hear that Arcus have some very light bows. I've often wondered whether strongly-left-handed son Viohazard would find a light bow a help or a hindrance. What draws people to Coda rather than Arcus, or vice versa, in your opinion?

I've no idea, sorry. I've only tried the cheapest Coda and the most expensive Arcus (I didn't like either of them).

Liz

Unlike violins, the age of a bow makes no difference to the way it sounds - a bow is either well made or it isn't. The more well made, well balanced and nice sounding the bow, the more money you will have to pay for it.

Carbon fibre is consistently well made because it's engineered - therefore there is no waste and the cost is a great deal lower.

I played with a carbon fibre bow bought from liz for a year or so, and it was good - much better than wooden ones in the same range. Once I had sufficiently advanced, I wanted to upgrade but found that a better quality carbon fibre bow didn't suit me - I opted for a well made bow from a local bowmaker in my town and I think I paid around 3000 euro for it. On the whole, it suits me really well and feels like I'm playing with air. Below the 1500 UK range, I think you would do very well to check out the glasser braided CF bow and some of the Arcus bows. The glasser costs very little (couple of hundred pounds, I think) and plays like a much more expensive bow.

Get some on approval (liz will send some to you, she's very obliging like that) and try them out. Try also getting some from a luthier or, if you're lucky enough to have a specialist bow maker near you, get some from there too. Play them all on your fiddle and make your mind up about which one sounds the best and handles the best.

Enjoy!

Allan

Westcountry Violins have a great reputation for friendly, helpful service and fair dealing; they should have some nice old French models in stock. However, if you are on a fairly tight budget and would consider a new bow, take a look at the Marco Raposo range. I've just bought one for £285 and it's just superb. Beautifully made, well-balanced and a joy to use. Fantastic value IMHO.

Interesting fact - Apparently quite a lot of the Marco Raposo bows are made out of old pernum buco fenceposts. They infact make great bows because they've been so well seasoned And I suppose it's recycling as well

What a great idea!

son No 1 has a Marco Raposo cello bow and is really pleased with it.

Hey you guys - a big thanks for your advice on the importance of a good bow. Out of curiosity more than conviction I asked Liz to send me a few samples and I'm a convert! I'm now the proud owner of a new (old) bow and the difference is amazing. It's agility across the strings is noticeable but the real difference is near the heel and lower half of the bow. I just thought I was rusty but it was frustrating when repeated checks on my hold and posture yielded little fruit. I just thought it would come together with time.

Well that time has now come! It was the bow that did it!! The balance and lightness of my new bow has made a world of a difference and it's not even a very expensive one (I must have been playing with a scrubbing brush!). I haven't become a genius overnight but the difference in colour and finesse is an education and delight.

So thank you for sharing your expertise with me. Advice that has set me back a few pennies but ulitmatley invaluable. Much appreciated.

G.

What I've heard is that a good bow suitable for your violin is around half the price of your violin. Lol.

So pleased you've got yourself sorted - i hope you and your bow have a great time!

Now..... where were you with rosin???!!!

Thanx Minstrel - we're definitely having a great time (oh apart from yesterday when things weren't going to plan. I cheer myself up by paraphasing Agger's on TMS and say I'm 'Bowing a load of garbage' (This will only make sense to people who listen to the cricket on the radio - sorry. )

And yes - the rosin - I suppose it's got to the gold dust with a dash of sapphire and maybe a drizzle of emerald for good measure. Can't have this down market sticky stuff from trees anymore can I.

Sarah and I had better bring sunglasses. We're going to be dazzled at Stalybridge....

Yup!!

Sunglasses? Now there's a thought. Remind me again what they are I think we'll have to make our own sunshine - someone said this weather was going to last until next year I think we might need to buy this gold dust rosin in bulk!

Sarah and I had better bring sunglasses. We're going to be dazzled at Stalybridge....

Stalybridge! What`s happening there and have I missed it? I`ve got my own sunglasses.

Do you think a lighter/heavier/carbon fibre bow would help with my bounce and shakey problem?

I just use the brazilwood bow that came with my first (student) violin. I've been told it's worth about £80.

Or am I just lacking technique??

Hi lottie,

if you feel that your bow handles well enough and you like the sound you're making (if it's near to the sound you imagine in your head) then you're probably fine. The key would be to play something challenging with your bow - something that includes spiccato, ricochet, staccato, martele bowing etc (if you've done these with your teacher) and decide whether you think the bow is performing well enough to keep you going or whether you need to change it.

If you do need to change it, take Claudia bow shopping with you so she can choose her own! (Hamish is very funny about bows - but then he's very funny about classical music as well - you have to sneak it up on him when he's had a whisky.)

Allan

Adult Learners' Concert at Stalybridge Methodist Church on 28th July. See Adult Learners forum for details

Hi Allan - thanks for the advice
Sounds like I will have to wait until I can do those 'bouncy' things deliberately!!!!

I just wondered while reading this thread because sometimes my bow feels 'heavy' but maybe that's a good thing. I think I'll promise Claudia a shopping trip next year but only if she's good and behaves herself... she's not a whisky drinker but likes a long Pina Colada on a hot afternoon.

(Talking of sunshine.. my teacher came round for a visit yesterday (coffee and chocolate cake) and we played duets in the garden in the sunshine. It was very Victorian and rather lovely apart from when my Italian Greyhound jumped on her knee mid-allegro and my labrador took a big slurp of her chin-rest between movements !)

hhmmm tasty. Give that dog more salt!

I set a ceiling of £200 for my new bow a few years ago, and then paid £350 (I'm grade 7-8) but I'm not planning to upgrade again. (At least, my husband hopes I'm not!) But it's definitly worth trying out as many as you can.

I'm afraid I have to disagree with elidatrading - I dislike carbon bows and think they are a waste of money.

The bow is half the violin! For a well-made, strong bow the wood is expensive, and you will also pay more for good quality hair. Then there's the weight and balance and quickness of response. Bows should not be skimped on price-wise. One of my sources suggests that a bow should be approximately a quarter of the value of the violin.

Your personal preference is one thing, but as for writing all carbon bows off as "a waste of money" many professionals disagree with you - have you actually TRIED a good carbon fibre bow?

Liz

Yes! I bought my carbon graphite X bow from Liz for only £60 and yet all my teachers loved it! Said it was better than theirs. For you in the UK it's great because you can try them all out first, but still I love the bow Liz sent. It does a mean spiccato. Check it out this site

At which stage in our violin studies do we start thinking seriously of changing our bows? My bows have all come with my violins so I don't really have a choice.

i suppose in the higher stages. I changed mine at Grade 5. Anyway no matter how good your violin is, the bow will make a whole lot of difference in the way sound is produced.

Just reviving this ever popular topic !

On the way home from lesson a week or so back, Viohazard very quickly tried out a few bows, in order to get some idea of budget for an EVENTUAL upgrade.

His current and very serviceable bow (Finkel Atelier) would be somewhere in the GBP300+ range. It does the job, but something a little more responsive would be very nice to have.

He tried a Brazilian bow priced somewhere above that, but less than GBP700....really no noticeable difference.

Tried another somewhere in the GBP1500-2000 range (remembering that this is the equivalent of the Japanese price, not necessarily what that bow would actually sell for in the UK!)....noticeable jump in responsiveness, in other words, at that level he suddenly noticed that the bow DID respond quickly and sensitively to all input.

He was offered a try on another bow just as a treat....somewhere in the GBP10,000+ range....Woah! What a bow! The sound just poured out of Viohazard's violin. It brought a kind of fiery translucence and satiny shimmer to the sound.

It will be a while and a while before any serious shopping is done, but I assume strings players are always interested in bow-talk...

At under £1000, John Clutterbuck's bows are a steal (I have mentioned this before). Clutterbuck was amongst the last generation of bowmakers trained at Hills, and bizarrely, the bows he made while at Hills (and branded as such) sell for much more.

For a bit more, the bows of Gary Leahy (around £1500) rival those costing twice as much. Leahy trained with Noel Burke, one of the world's very best living bowmakers.

I have no personal or business connection with either of these two gentlemen, by the way.

The concept that the bow should cost a certain fraction of your violin's value is rather simplistic and not terribly helpful. You should choose the bow that works best with your violin, regardless of cost. At one point my daughter (now a busy pro player) was using a £1500 bow with a £500 violin. The combination worked very well.

I'm similar, in that I've often had quite expensive bows compared to my violin. They're very important, they're half of the sound-making process after all! My violin cost me £2500 and my bow is a Nurnberger bow, for which I paid £1500, and worth every penny. My non-musical friends are often very surprised at how much instruments cost, and it's also quite surprising to them that I'll pay almost similar amounts for a violin as I will a bow, but many people underestimate a bow and what it can do for your playing. It's really worth getting a good one.

You have to pick a bow that enhances your playing, or one that encourages you to play better - sometimes this will cost more than your fiddle is worth. The concept of a percentage, however, can be helpful when starting out in the upgrade process, so you know roughly where to pitch yourself and is likely based on the majority of cases, so it's probably actually very useful rather than not useful at all. My luthier continues to advise people in this way, he tells them to start with a bow that costs around 40 percent of fiddle value, then he watches them play and brings out others for them to try, sometimes they end up with one that costs less, sometimes more. In the majority of cases, though, the 40 percent rule seems to work really well.

I had my bow made for me by a local bowmaker for a few thousand euro - it cost considerably less than my fiddle, but is absolutely perfect. I know at least one person, however, who has a fiddle that was way less expensive than his bow was.

Horses for courses.

Hi. I have been thinking about this, but what difference of sound does a carbon fiber bow make, compared to a wooden bow? And why are French bows said to be good? I thought that Italy made good violins. Why aren't they said to be good bow makers?

To be honest, at the level of bow you'll be buying, it doesn't matter greatly whether it's Italian, French or German etc, it's how the bow works for you. The only reason French bows have a greater rep than Italian bows is cos the good ones were initially made in France - Tourte bows are the shizz. So Tourte is kind of like the Strad, Guarneri and Amati of the bow world, although there are some English bowmakers that are also of good rep. There are many good makes from loads of countries now. I own a lovely German Nurnberger. don't limit yourself to just trying out French bows - whenever I went to try new bows, the guy never told me anything about them until after I'd played them all and decided which ones I liked, it could affect your decision and you want your decision to be based on how you feel the bow reacts, not where it's from etc.

Are the suggested percentages for bow value against instrument the same for cello's as they are for violins? I'm currently playing with the bow I bought when I was 12 and haven't a clue what price I should be budgeting for for a new one.