I've got a silly question that I think I might know the answer to already.

Now I have quite a large vocal range (well i think it's quite large) D below middle C to top F.

here's my silly question. That top F (and sometimes even the G) I can only reach in certain songs/pieces. Would this be to do with the pieces or the breating or the fact that I'm quite out of practice when it comes to sing (or a mixture of all three).

It could be down to the vowel shape. If the larynx is not sitting low then high notes will be a struggle, have a look at the notes in the songs you can do to see if it's making a difference.

I'll have to look into it.

I do know that it tends to be classical pieces where I can hit higher notes than in contemporary (pop) pieces.

Would this have something to do with it.

It could well be. Do you use your head voice in pop songs or push up your chest voice? I can only reach the A above middle C in chest voice, yet my head range goes an octave and a half higher. Another reason could be that you sing classical in a posher voice and therefore purer vowels which doesn't work all the time with pop songs.

Careful, Possum! That's rather high to be safely taking your chest voice! I wouldn't personally take it higher than an F (again for safety).

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This is probably going to cause dissent BUT I think a "top down " approach to registers is the only safe way
ie you develop the resonances at the top of your range and bring them down to enhance your lower tones

I think gear crashing ie pushing up lower registers is dangerous

I started out as a bass baritone - added baritone and tenor ranges to make about three and a half octaves
My bottom notes are better ie I have a low bass D because my top notes were develop as the overall resonance and the lack of tension enhances the sound

When I retrained as a tenor after being a successful high baritone I found that I could not simply push the weight up from the chest and the throat I had to develop my head voice to make it work Once I did my whole range improved

Doesn't the approach you take depend on how you sing? You had a lower voice, so naturally your higher registers would need to be applied to them. But, I started out as a treble and then very rapidly became a tenor. The only real way I could consider it isn't pushing gears up, but carryign the resonance and the tone from the bottom up.

I do agree with all the points here, on the rare occasions when I do sing a pop song for my teacher he makes me use head voice at the top but after hearing how pop singers sing them I try and imitate them by using chest voice. He has said that lighter voices are able to push up their chest voice register higher and it turns out that i'm quite a weighty soprano (something we never considered 6 months ago). I must behave Ann and listen to my teacher!!!

Tony, I wholeheartedly agree with bringing the top down, I started off with a gravelly chest voice, then nothing in the middle, then a thin head voice sound at the top, after years of training the head voice sound has grown bigger and fatter which in turn worked it's way down my range so that I now have a comfortable middle range which I can push if I need to.

Mezzo1974, I don't think i've gotten as far as mixing the registers. My teacher explained to me that the ring of the head voice will in turn make the chest voice sound less gravelly and more the same sound. What you're explaining sounds interesting, I can't sing musical songs or pop songs comfortably, in a way i'm not worried about that, I could quite happily sing classical and opera for the rest of my life but i'm not sure i'll ever make back the money i've paid out in lessons fees doing that!

kat the cobbler - I think the best advice here may be to get a good teacher who can hear what you are doing and explain how you can do it safefully!

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Sorry for hijacking the thread kat

I went for my lesson this morning and my teacher made me sing Unchained Melody as an experiment (quite out of the blue!). He said afterwards that there was no change in volume or quality even though I used chest and head voice, I still find it very difficult to understand that my head voice is suitable for popular repertoire although he says that an audience will enjoy a top note that is cuddly and resonant rather than a strained chest sound. I am going to experiment with it abit this week, as in singing popular songs that make me use my head voice and see what happens.

His quote afterwards, "When you began singing your chest voice was in Outer Mongolia and your head voice was in North Africa"

What a great way of putting it *grin*

I know - I really should start note-taking and make them into a book

When I say a top down approach I do not mean voice building from the top down but rather taking resonances from the higher notes to import into the lower part of the voice

I would voice build from the strongest notes and work outwards depending on the vocal range

Some further points

1 like a lot of people I have a wide range but I only sing in the tenor part of my voice to keep it properly placed In my opinion pushing too much on lower notes can disturb the overall shape of the voice I know from singing Wagner extensively that one has to "wind up " the voice to sing Verdi or Puccini

2 I am careful what I sing - I have a dramatic voice and I can take liberties but I won't belt - I would never sing rock for instance

3 The singer does not hear the sound like the audience - it needs an external expert to give advice on proper sound. I did not want to become a tenor as I was making good progress as a professional baritone - but on the advice of others I had to retrain as I was no longer credible as a baritone

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Actually retraining as a tenor did not strain my voice in the sense of pushing for top notes - it liberated it !

I already had a top B as a baritone and took it that I was a baritone with top The three people who told me I should retrain were Rosie Barnes now a coach with ENO - Laura Sarti and the late great William Macalpine international tenor The hard bit which took 4 years was developing the mental approach
Top Gs and As suddenly became the middle of my voice instead of the absolute top of my working range

I had sung Escamillo in the mid 70s and been told I was a tenor but it came to a head when I sang Valentine's aria from Faust
Apparently it was too easy for me

My first role as a tenor was Canio - nothing like an easy start

I think you'll find that wasn't the question Mezzo1974 was asking, Tony.

It liberated it not only from the point of view of top notes but also the sound I made It became lighter and brighter immediately I retrained as a tenor There was no physical strain involved because the voice just seeemed ready for the change

Yes, I get it, but, (unless I am mistaken, in which case my apologies to Mezzo) the question she was asking was; IF it had caused you strain, would you still have done it? ie, regardless of some expert telling you "sing like this, it sounds better", would you have continued to push your voiced if it had strained/hurt you?

The question you have answered is "did it strain your voice to retrain as a tenor?" to which clearly the answer is no. But that also is not what she asked, as far as I can see, which is why she said "credibility is something different than real vocal problems", and why she said "if" and "would you". Her question is hypothetical.

Hiya

Clearly, you're someone with a lot of experience, so I'd best ask: when you say the notes became easier to sing, you did use head voice, didn't you? It's just that, while I consider using head voice with the top notes the best way to sing, I have numerous people telling me that they use their chest voices to get up there...

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Oh good *phew*

This makes sense to the journey i've been on. Sometimes I sing a soprano aria and it feels fine, other times I can sing a mezzo one and feel fine but on the whole I am happier with soprano tessitura. My teacher says i'm a spinto soprano at the moment but suspects I might become a dramatic if my voice keeps going the way it has been of late. This time last year we thought it might be a mezzo but I still enjoy my top notes and now my voice is free it is happy to stay up there without any effort. I must admit I love the sound of mezzo's though, chocolately bottom notes my teacher says

Re - going to tenor - It was the bright sound as well as the ease at the top that prompted people to say retrain I simply could not maintain a natural baritone sound When I retrained I simply did not add notes - I also re centred the voice as well

N Tenor - headvoice is the ghing - go for it

Good to know, thanks!

Tony, I think you still missed Mezzo's point, but never mind. I think we all understand now that you had no problem retraining.

If I'd had a problem retraining I would not have done it My lessons with BIll Macalpine were some of the most enjoyable musical experiences I ever had Within the first lesson it simply felt right what he was saying. Remember I had had many people saying "you are a tenor " for years or "you could sing tenor " and other saying "can't hear any tenor sound in your voice "
I sang a lot of baritone both as a amateur and professional including Rigoletto - Scarpia - Tonio - Alfio Escamillo and so many Fathers in Hansel and Gretel I lost count Ford in Falstaff was another regular gig as well

I have met a number of baritones who want to go up and I would say only do it if you are forced to

Re-focusing your main area of your voice is not uncommon.

For goodness sake Joan Sutherland started life as a Mezzo, just think of that when you enjoy listening to her controlled coloratura in Donizetti!

The trouble with big voices is that they tend to have sonorous lower notes. It is very easy to "Mezzo" a Dramatic Soprano or "Baritone" a Helden-Tenor. The key is how easily do they move throughout the voice.

At 16-17 it would have been easy to think I'd be a Mezzo. Wrong! - and as my voice matured it became clearer and clearer that I was really a Soprano with some rather juicy lower notes due to the ease I have at the top compared with the effort at the bottom.

This is why singing teachers have to be aware that its not just the notes you can sing, but how you sing them.

As for extending range, I now tend to do it from the middle out. Gently encouraging the chest voice and making sure the blend works in both directions.

The most important thing is that you listen out to strengths and go with them.

Jo

Forgive me if I am being obtuse, but WHY would anyone retrain their voice in such a way that it caused them pain or discomfort or difficulty? If a teacher tried to get you to do that, why would you carry on? I'm speaking from the standpoint of an adult with some experience of music lessons, rather than if you were a beginner, for example.

I spent years as a soprano- doing all the top parts at school etc. But then I got throat infection after throat infection, and found it all really difficult- switched to singing jazz and everything being much lower (alto in choirs etc) and it's been much easier. I now don't know what I am (because I can sing tenor but I can also still hit soprano top notes, C above the stave at least which I don't think is too bad given that I haven't sung 'properly' for a few years).

Although on a slight tangent, given that my university teacher just accepted that I was a soprano and never questioned why I always had a sore throat, etc, and why I ended up hating singing because I found it uncomfortable and difficult, how do you find a teacher who is going to really know what they are doing? I need to get a teacher locally- but I am terrified that whoever I go to, or if I go back to my teacher I had when I was at school, that I'm going to end up doing myself more harm than good. Or worse, that the damage has already been done... I also worry that I am just lazy and the reason why I'd rather sing from the 'medium' voice ABRSM book than the 'high' voice book is because it's easier and I can't be bothered to do the work...

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That is EXACTLY the same vocal range as me!!!

Luckily at music college, I was able to choose both my singing teacher and my coach. What would happen, though, if, when going to a new teacher, your breaks were imperceptible? I know where mine WERE, but you can't hear them now. Sometimes I get a student from another teacher, and the work has already been done to make the transitions between the registers seamless. Timbre and range have to be pointers then.

Hmm, I think that every experienced teacher will still hear the "split point", no matter how seamless the blending works. Register breaks do not disappear since they are a physical function. They just get sort of inaudible if someone is well trained.

It is surely a difference if the break is inaudible in an aria and a person hears you for the first time. I have students myself who do this perfectly well, and no one hearing them for the first time would be aware of any register break. But you will surely agree that it is a competely different matter if you work with someone for months or even years. If I think of my best students who have seamless blending: I can still hear where they "change gear", and I think every good teacher does.
Teachers who don't are either rubbish or not interested in the vocal health of their students. Not sure what was the case with mine at Uni, but it doesn't matter anyway since both is equally bad ...

When I was at school I was split. I would sing soprano at school but mezzo soprano in the county choir. Though that was mainly because our school choir was mixed where as the county choir was all girls.

I just thnk with my voice I need to "retrain" it as I'm a little out of practice.