Full Version: Recorders Descant And Treble
hi i am trying to teach myself recorders just for fun and because they travel well ( i cant think about not playing while away somewhere) i am ok on the descant but am finding the treble mind boggling i like the sound of it but cant keep the fingerings in my head having learnt flute fingerings first
has any one any ideas how to switch from one to the other without forgetting treble notes? i cant even remeber the first three holes without looking in the book!
i have looked at tenors but cant really justify the cost this month as its just for fun
The answer is an easy one, and a very difficult one too....
Practice.
The more you get used to playing each size of recorder, and to changing sizes, the easier it gets.
Sorry.
Practice.
The more you get used to playing each size of recorder, and to changing sizes, the easier it gets.
Sorry.
HI thanks for the reply i wish i had more time i think i shall take it to india with me in dec tuck myself away on mother in laws room garden and really practice i wont be able to take nice silver flute but have caught the recorder bug too now
just looking at tenor recorders on a web site states it is a barquoe fingering is this different to normal? i wondered because it is 20 not 50
just looking at tenor recorders on a web site states it is a barquoe fingering is this different to normal? i wondered because it is 20 not 50
QUOTE(monkey flute @ Jul 2 2007, 12:12 PM) 
HI thanks for the reply i wish i had more time i think i shall take it to india with me in dec tuck myself away on mother in laws room garden and really practice i wont be able to take nice silver flute but have caught the recorder bug too now
just looking at tenor recorders on a web site states it is a barquoe fingering is this different to normal? i wondered because it is 20 not 50
Baroque fingering is, in the UK at least, the normal fingering on a recorder.
thanks i might have a tenor soon then x
I'm finding treble difficult as well. I started learning descant early this year - had learned in primary school and for some reason remembered everything - and treble a month or so ago. I think when I'm playing treble I instinctively do it by transposition - I can look at the note I'm supposed to be playing on treble and play it. If you asked me to play a "D" thought, it gets a bit trickier!
I had mentioned this on a previous thread, with my piano students I like to get them to say the notes as they play if I think they're guessing - but you can't do this with recorder. I can't remember who it was now, but someone suggested that you hold the recorder to your chin and say the note you're playing whilst holding the fingers down. It really works - I'm a lot more comfortable with notes now, I still think I'm doing something a little weird and not exactly reading the notes as it slows me down, but I can a lot quicker when I want.
hope this helps.
I had mentioned this on a previous thread, with my piano students I like to get them to say the notes as they play if I think they're guessing - but you can't do this with recorder. I can't remember who it was now, but someone suggested that you hold the recorder to your chin and say the note you're playing whilst holding the fingers down. It really works - I'm a lot more comfortable with notes now, I still think I'm doing something a little weird and not exactly reading the notes as it slows me down, but I can a lot quicker when I want.
hope this helps.
I'd agree with Katyjay - practice!
But you may find it helpful to spend a while, maybe a week or two or whatever fits your schedule, concentrating on the basic treble fingerings before going back to descant.
The best way to practice changing from C (descant) to F (treble) is to have them both out at the same time and alternate a descant piece with a treble piece. Never be tempted to play treble music on the descant or vice versa, at least for now, as it'll confuse you. It's something to do with the spacing of the fingers, I think. My fingers seem to know it's descant fingerig when they're closer together, and treble when they are further apart.
I once met someone who was profficient on violin, viola, cello and double bass and he said he usually practiced all four at one session, swapping among them until he no longer got confused.
But you may find it helpful to spend a while, maybe a week or two or whatever fits your schedule, concentrating on the basic treble fingerings before going back to descant.
The best way to practice changing from C (descant) to F (treble) is to have them both out at the same time and alternate a descant piece with a treble piece. Never be tempted to play treble music on the descant or vice versa, at least for now, as it'll confuse you. It's something to do with the spacing of the fingers, I think. My fingers seem to know it's descant fingerig when they're closer together, and treble when they are further apart.
I once met someone who was profficient on violin, viola, cello and double bass and he said he usually practiced all four at one session, swapping among them until he no longer got confused.
hi thanks for all the advice everyone i am going to take my descant along to the folk band tonight and have a go i looked at the tenor again are german recorders different the web site company is based in germany and i am abit worried i will end up with a tenor i cant play
Make sure you get a recorder with English or Baroque (the same) fingering. Double-check that you're not getting a German fingering one.
This doesn't mean you can't get a German recorder, many of the excellent makers such as Moeck and Mollenhaur are German and will sell you a Baroque fingered recorder. It's just that German fingered recorders are not good. John at Saunders Recorders, who probably knows more about recorders than most, won't touch them. I'll have a look at his website and see where he discusses them.
Ok, I've just looked - in the glossary on the information page it says of German fingered recorders "avoid them like the plague." There's a picture to show you how to tell one type from another. I can't do links, but go to Saunders Recorders on google.
This doesn't mean you can't get a German recorder, many of the excellent makers such as Moeck and Mollenhaur are German and will sell you a Baroque fingered recorder. It's just that German fingered recorders are not good. John at Saunders Recorders, who probably knows more about recorders than most, won't touch them. I'll have a look at his website and see where he discusses them.
Ok, I've just looked - in the glossary on the information page it says of German fingered recorders "avoid them like the plague." There's a picture to show you how to tell one type from another. I can't do links, but go to Saunders Recorders on google.
Yes - the way you tell is to look at the line of holes on the top of the instrument; if you number them 1-7 from the head end to the foot end, number five is the giveaway - on a baroque instrument this hole is, if anything, larger than the others, on a German-fingered one, much smaller. I think the link should be here: Saunders webpage. You need to find the information page, scroll down to the glossary of terms, and click on the link to a photo of two instruments, one German-fingered, the other baroque. Don't touch German-fingered recorders with a bargepole - they don't work as far as tuning goes over the rest of the instrument, and all to avoid one single forked fingering. Better to learn that recorders are full of forked fingerings, get on and learn them. And for the really difficult fast passages, a few alternatives as well 
.
.
QUOTE(anacrusis @ Jul 2 2007, 10:18 PM)
Yes - the way you tell is to look at the line of holes on the top of the instrument; if you number them 1-7 from the head end to the foot end, number five is the giveaway - on a baroque instrument this hole is, if anything, larger than the others, on a German-fingered one, much smaller. I think the link should be here: Saunders webpage. You need to find the information page, scroll down to the glossary of terms, and click on the link to a photo of two instruments, one German-fingered, the other baroque. Don't touch German-fingered recorders with a bargepole - they don't work as far as tuning goes over the rest of the instrument, and all to avoid one single forked fingering. Better to learn that recorders are full of forked fingerings, get on and learn them. And for the really difficult fast passages, a few alternatives as well
.hi wow thanks for the help salrec and anacrusis i will have another look now and see
if its a bargain or not.
QUOTE(katyjay @ Jul 2 2007, 11:43 AM)
The answer is an easy one, and a very difficult one too....
Practice.
The more you get used to playing each size of recorder, and to changing sizes, the easier it gets.
Sorry.
Katyjay's right.
Like you monkey flute, I find F fingerings trickier than C ones. But it's definitely worth persevering, you'll find much more solo repertoire is written for treble recorder than any other size.
And having practiced more, and taken the treble to the occasional SRP meeting, I'm starting to feel better about the F fingerings. With practice, I'm sure you will feel better about it too monkey flute.
It is practice... but I had to learn treble quickly as I took over the recorder groups at school. I still do it by ear/feel a bit. I just have it in my head that a descant B is the same fingering as a treble E and everything else just followed. I taught my son that way too...and he is fine....and now learns the clarinet which is similar fingering. I did use tutor books for school pupils though.... Treble from the beginning...or something... once you've learnt this you can play bass. It's wonderful isn't it.
When I got my recorders out of my mum's loft, I could cope with C-fingerings but not with F-fingerings. My first SRP meeting I had just a tenor, but at the next meeting I took my (shiny new) descant AND my treble with me, with very little practice done in between. We play five pieces each meeting, and that time I deliberately swapped between a C-instrument and an F-instrument between each piece. Yes, I made some mistakes but a 'trial by fire' worked well for me.
Since then, I've vastly improved, and I think to an extent it's just 'knowing' which instrument is in your hands and playing accordingly. Yes, I do still make plenty of mistakes, although strangely I seem to have gone the other way and now occasionally do F-fingerings on a C-recorder - notably my new tenor, which has smaller finger spacing than my old tenor, so maybe my mind and fingers haven't yet imprinted that new spacing as a tenor!
I would agree with the poster above to never ever ever play descant music on a treble or vice versa. If you have distinct music you play on each instrument that's going to reduce your confusion.
I did something similar when I got my bass recorder, I couldn't get round to playing it at home, so my first attempts were at the SRP and weren't tooooo bad [not that good either, but nobody seemed to mind!] I now take all four recorders to SRP with me, and try to make sure I play all four across the five pieces we do - someone commented last time that I was swapping about a lot, I said it's just the equivalent of fidgeting
Since then, I've vastly improved, and I think to an extent it's just 'knowing' which instrument is in your hands and playing accordingly. Yes, I do still make plenty of mistakes, although strangely I seem to have gone the other way and now occasionally do F-fingerings on a C-recorder - notably my new tenor, which has smaller finger spacing than my old tenor, so maybe my mind and fingers haven't yet imprinted that new spacing as a tenor!
I would agree with the poster above to never ever ever play descant music on a treble or vice versa. If you have distinct music you play on each instrument that's going to reduce your confusion.
I did something similar when I got my bass recorder, I couldn't get round to playing it at home, so my first attempts were at the SRP and weren't tooooo bad [not that good either, but nobody seemed to mind!] I now take all four recorders to SRP with me, and try to make sure I play all four across the five pieces we do - someone commented last time that I was swapping about a lot, I said it's just the equivalent of fidgeting
QUOTE(Maizie @ Jul 3 2007, 10:55 AM)
When I got my recorders out of my mum's loft, I could cope with C-fingerings but not with F-fingerings. My first SRP meeting I had just a tenor, but at the next meeting I took my (shiny new) descant AND my treble with me, with very little practice done in between. We play five pieces each meeting, and that time I deliberately swapped between a C-instrument and an F-instrument between each piece. Yes, I made some mistakes but a 'trial by fire' worked well for me.
Since then, I've vastly improved, and I think to an extent it's just 'knowing' which instrument is in your hands and playing accordingly. Yes, I do still make plenty of mistakes, although strangely I seem to have gone the other way and now occasionally do F-fingerings on a C-recorder - notably my new tenor, which has smaller finger spacing than my old tenor, so maybe my mind and fingers haven't yet imprinted that new spacing as a tenor!
I would agree with the poster above to never ever ever play descant music on a treble or vice versa. If you have distinct music you play on each instrument that's going to reduce your confusion.
I did something similar when I got my bass recorder, I couldn't get round to playing it at home, so my first attempts were at the SRP and weren't tooooo bad [not that good either, but nobody seemed to mind!] I now take all four recorders to SRP with me, and try to make sure I play all four across the five pieces we do - someone commented last time that I was swapping about a lot, I said it's just the equivalent of fidgeting
hi i think after reading all these helpful posts the fingerings now make more sence on the treble i will have a go tonight . i would like to join a recorder group does any one know of one in the hampshire area that wouldnt mind a squeaky treble
[quote name='monkey flute' date='Jul 3 2007, 11:21 AM' post='545004']
[/quote]
hi i think after reading all these helpful posts the fingerings now make more sence on the treble i will have a go tonight . i would like to join a recorder group does any one know of one in the hampshire area that wouldnt mind a squeaky treble
[/quote]
I believe the nearest SRP meetings are in Winchester or Guildford. I've never made it to either as they have always clashed with other rehearsals/concerts.
[/quote]
hi i think after reading all these helpful posts the fingerings now make more sence on the treble i will have a go tonight . i would like to join a recorder group does any one know of one in the hampshire area that wouldnt mind a squeaky treble
[/quote]
I believe the nearest SRP meetings are in Winchester or Guildford. I've never made it to either as they have always clashed with other rehearsals/concerts.
hi thanks cjb i have emailed the winchester group and they will get back to me after the 9th of july i think i shall just go to listen first off.
one last question if a treble recorder first hole is e does it run down the recorder e,f,g,a,b,c,d,with the thumb hole as d also when looking at sheet music for the first hole do i play as written on the music an e this is the bit that i am struggling with with the treble
one last question if a treble recorder first hole is e does it run down the recorder e,f,g,a,b,c,d,with the thumb hole as d also when looking at sheet music for the first hole do i play as written on the music an e this is the bit that i am struggling with with the treble
QUOTE(monkey flute @ Jul 3 2007, 02:17 PM)
first hole is e does it run down the recorder e,f,g,a,b,c,d,with the thumb hole as d also when looking at sheet music for the first hole do i play as written on the music an e this is the bit that i am struggling with with the treble
Thumb and finger one down is E.
Thumb and two fingers down is D.
Thumb and three fingers down is C.
I think that you have it the wrong way round in the bit I have quoted, i.e. you've said fingers going down but listed notes going up.
You play the notes as written, so an E in the top space of the stave would be thumb and one finger.
QUOTE(Maizie @ Jul 3 2007, 02:20 PM)
QUOTE(monkey flute @ Jul 3 2007, 02:17 PM)
first hole is e does it run down the recorder e,f,g,a,b,c,d,with the thumb hole as d also when looking at sheet music for the first hole do i play as written on the music an e this is the bit that i am struggling with with the treble
Thumb and finger one down is E.
Thumb and two fingers down is D.
Thumb and three fingers down is C.
I think that you have it the wrong way round in the bit I have quoted, i.e. you've said fingers going down but listed notes going up.
You play the notes as written, so an E in the top space of the stave would be thumb and one finger.
hi ha ha no one i got myself in a pickle so starting with one hole and thumb covered e,g,a,b,c,d,e,f,with thumb and second finger top f
i find really hard to recite the alphabet backwards!
I found it best to concentrate on the treble for a while to get used to it. That said, I avoid descant like the plague usually (too shrieky) and don't like my tenor (too stretchy) so I tend to stick to treble most of the time!
QUOTE(sarah-flute @ Jul 3 2007, 04:08 PM)
I found it best to concentrate on the treble for a while to get used to it. That said, I avoid descant like the plague usually (too shrieky) and don't like my tenor (too stretchy) so I tend to stick to treble most of the time!
yes i think i might do this too can you look at my last post and tell me if i have the fingerings right
You need one of the recorder specialists - my brain doesn't "do" recorder when I am tired, I'd hate to tell you wrong!
QUOTE(sarah-flute @ Jul 3 2007, 04:47 PM)
You need one of the recorder specialists - my brain doesn't "do" recorder when I am tired, I'd hate to tell you wrong!
hi i cant be any more wrong than playing descant fingerings so anything is a step in the right direction (poor treble no wonder it squeaked a bit )
QUOTE(monkey flute @ Jul 3 2007, 02:32 PM)
so starting with one hole and thumb covered e,g,a,b,c,d,e,f,with thumb and second finger top f
Top F = 02 (thumb + second finger)
E = 01 (thumb + first finger)
D = 012
C = 0123
B = 0123 56
Bb = 01234 67
A = 012345
G = 0123456
F = 01234567 (all holes closed)
Backwards alphabets always get me. I stumble at G -> F usually. I can go c, b, a, g, um, what's next?
Dolmetsch recorder method, probably the only reference you'll ever need (well, for a while at least): http://www.dolmetsch.com/method.htm
QUOTE(Maizie @ Jul 3 2007, 04:52 PM)
QUOTE(monkey flute @ Jul 3 2007, 02:32 PM)
so starting with one hole and thumb covered e,g,a,b,c,d,e,f,with thumb and second finger top f
Top F = 02 (thumb + second finger)
E = 01 (thumb + first finger)
D = 012
C = 0123
B = 0123 56
Bb = 01234 67
A = 012345
G = 0123456
F = 01234567 (all holes closed)
Backwards alphabets always get me. I stumble at G -> F usually. I can go c, b, a, g, um, what's next?
Dolmetsch recorder method, probably the only reference you'll ever need (well, for a while at least): http://www.dolmetsch.com/method.htm
hi thanks i have tried to work this out and then changed my mind got confused thanks again
hi recordies thanks for the point in the right direction the only problem now is i want the whole family 
QUOTE(monkey flute @ Jul 4 2007, 04:09 PM)
hi recordies thanks for the point in the right direction the only problem now is i want the whole family
Welcome to the world of the recorder....believe me it doesn't stop at 1 of each size.
QUOTE(CJB @ Jul 5 2007, 01:34 PM)
QUOTE(monkey flute @ Jul 4 2007, 04:09 PM)
hi recordies thanks for the point in the right direction the only problem now is i want the whole family
Welcome to the world of the recorder....believe me it doesn't stop at 1 of each size.
Absolutely! You buy a plastic descant and think recorders are cheap. Then you tell yourself you need a treble for the main solo stuff, a tenor for ensembles or alternative for descants, maybe a bass, sopranino, a wooden descant and treble, and maybe tenor, other wooden recorders in all those sizes for solo/chamber/consort work, 415 pitch descant and treble for Baroque music, wide-bore recorders for Renaissance tunes, a garklein to go in your pocket, a modern alto and soprano for the modern stuff, modern soprano and alto with Baroque voiceing to put more dynamics into Baroque pieces.................have I forgot any?
QUOTE(neil.clarinet @ Jul 5 2007, 03:07 PM)
QUOTE(CJB @ Jul 5 2007, 01:34 PM)
QUOTE(monkey flute @ Jul 4 2007, 04:09 PM)
hi recordies thanks for the point in the right direction the only problem now is i want the whole family
Welcome to the world of the recorder....believe me it doesn't stop at 1 of each size.
Absolutely! You buy a plastic descant and think recorders are cheap. Then you tell yourself you need a treble for the main solo stuff, a tenor for ensembles or alternative for descants, maybe a bass, sopranino, a wooden descant and treble, and maybe tenor, other wooden recorders in all those sizes for solo/chamber/consort work, 415 pitch descant and treble for Baroque music, wide-bore recorders for Renaissance tunes, a garklein to go in your pocket, a modern alto and soprano for the modern stuff, modern soprano and alto with Baroque voiceing to put more dynamics into Baroque pieces.................have I forgot any?
oh dear i am in trouble then ! i am already telling myself that a tenor is needed and i should get a nice new treble i think my mums loft should have a soprano in there somewhere and my well loved fife (really would like that back) plus my sisters descant oh dear i need a recorder stand.
Yes, the recorder collecting bug is a hard one to shake off. Our current family collection is about 33, ranging from garkleine (one) to bass (two). But quite a few are plastic ones, especially descant and treble because I run a recorder club. In fact, I was given a descant and treble yesterday, no longer wanted by their owner.
Looking through the Saunders website or the EMS catalogue is a dangerous thing. It creates a desire for recorders you didn't know you needed. However, one of my favourites is a multi-coloured stripey painted descant, given me by one of my daughters last birthday. (My other daughter gave me socks with recorders on!).
Looking through the Saunders website or the EMS catalogue is a dangerous thing. It creates a desire for recorders you didn't know you needed. However, one of my favourites is a multi-coloured stripey painted descant, given me by one of my daughters last birthday. (My other daughter gave me socks with recorders on!).
QUOTE(salrec @ Jul 5 2007, 07:35 PM)
Yes, the recorder collecting bug is a hard one to shake off. Our current family collection is about 33, ranging from garkleine (one) to bass (two). But quite a few are plastic ones, especially descant and treble because I run a recorder club. In fact, I was given a descant and treble yesterday, no longer wanted by their owner.
Looking through the Saunders website or the EMS catalogue is a dangerous thing. It creates a desire for recorders you didn't know you needed. However, one of my favourites is a multi-coloured stripey painted descant, given me by one of my daughters last birthday. (My other daughter gave me socks with recorders on!).
hi the stripey one sounds cool have you seen the thread from malone and mr wiggles we have plenty of good second hand shops to keep me nicely stocked with recorder music in hampshire and a few recorders too. so i am happy supporting the charity shops and finding lovely 1924 sheet music. i try and buy a penny whistle type instrument from where ever i travel india crete and paris so far in the last year since i have been playing .
Hi, yes the stripey one is lovely, really a toy, but very cheerful. I think they come in a range of patterns. I've also seen a spotty one.
The one with wiggly eyes is great, isn't it? I may "sacrifice" a cheap recorder to entertain the children in my recorder club. I love your idea of collecting a penny whistle type instruments, do you have them on display at home?
The one with wiggly eyes is great, isn't it? I may "sacrifice" a cheap recorder to entertain the children in my recorder club. I love your idea of collecting a penny whistle type instruments, do you have them on display at home?
QUOTE(salrec @ Jul 6 2007, 12:16 PM)
Hi, yes the stripey one is lovely, really a toy, but very cheerful. I think they come in a range of patterns. I've also seen a spotty one.
The one with wiggly eyes is great, isn't it? I may "sacrifice" a cheap recorder to entertain the children in my recorder club. I love your idea of collecting a penny whistle type instruments, do you have them on display at home?
HI sort of working on that spotted some bamboo pan pipes the other day in oxfam book amd music store and thought they would look good on the wall
at the moment everything is neatly stored in the spare/music room along with hubbys seven guitars (its a big spare room ) three amps keyboard and my two flutes and about a million music books
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.