I teach jazz and pop styles because I teach jazz and blues piano and the two worlds collide

Some observations

1 Very few jazz singers actually want to focus on good tone production - support and breathing are given lip service but not taken too seriously This leads to intonation problems ie they sing flat there is a famous female jazz singer with a 3 octave voice who to me never hits the note One can encounter the usual problems of throat based singing as well

2 A lot of singers want to imitate someone more famous - so they want to modify their sound to replicate Billie Holliday or Nina Simone etc without any reference to their vocal range or production

3 Very few can read music - they learn by listening repeatedly to CDs or backing tracks - this has its own difficulties

4 In addition to the female belt voice you get the "rock " tenor which is used a lot in musicals or the West End wendy type of wavery small voice which supposedly works well on a throat mike

5 Most singers want to modify the voice ie - bend notes - slide - slur or use throat modification to make an effect I have one used to yodel at the start of every note until I made her stop

In a lesson I will handle vocal production but also have read/busk a song and if necessary transpose if the published edition is not in the right range. The old gag "we've tried the white notes and the black ones - now lets sing in the cracks" applies here

Finally I don't sing jazz or pop except as part of a lesson - I don't disapprove of the music as genres but I like my voice the way it is and do not want to change the balance.

Was there something you especially wanted to discuss, tony?

I was also wondering that.... thought maybe it was my perennial confusion...

Punctuation perhaps.

Well, I found that post interesting! I don't teach that style but some of your comments apply to my students too. Some don't think that sight reading is important and some think that copying other singers is the way to learn. It was nice to see another singing teacher stressing similar things. Thanks Tony.

I don't think the topic would be of relevance to the first three respondents, as it assumes a fairly advanced knowledge of jazz and vocal technique.

I thought it might of interest for the professional teachers who are involved in this area or have considered moving into the jazz teaching sphere.

Re punctuation - I am partially sighted I cannot see stops or colons onscreen go figure

There was an interview with Dame Cleo Laine on BBC Breakfast time this morning, now I don't think you can say she has sloppy technique.

I do come accross the "sound-a-likes", and have been heard to say things like, "I know Bette Midler sang Wind beneath your wings beautifully, but you're not Bette Midler - make it your own". To bat about like Whiney Houston does takes solid technical work and that has to be explained.

The inability to read music is not a problem. I still insist on giving pupils sheet music, even if I then swap from my trusty piano to a backing track.

As far as not talking about vocal production is concerned well that is very much your own decision as a teacher. I mention it all the time. Phrases like "you're going to have to float that one a bit more" or "you can afford to bring your chest voice up a bit more" occur regularly in my lessons when I'm teaching that sort of music.

Its more a case as a teacher of redefining your criteria to listen out for different things so that the tuning isn't affected. Oh and yes, I determine which standard is suitable for which singer. I'm not going to give a soprano "Maybe this time" and a deeper mezzo won't get "I feel pretty".

As a teacher regardless of the genre it is possible to keep control and guide your pupils, along with their own musical preferences. to sing things that are appropriate for them whilst giving them the techniques they need to sing them without compromising vocal health. In my book that is why they come to me and pay me. If I compromised that maxim then I'd be failing the people who look to me for support and guidance. Frankly not doing so would be unprofessional. I do not want to be responsible for damaging anyones voice, just enabling them to sing the sort of thing they want to learn.

Jo

Very interesting stuff! I have some classical training (haven't done exams, but lots of cathedral choral singing, so you can imagine what kind of voice I have, very straight, with just a healthy hint of vibrato!). This Saturday I am singing at a wedding and am doing lots of the standard wedding stuff (Panis Angelicus, Schubert Ave Maria) and am also singing an Irish song I used to sing regularly as a teenager and "Oh Happy Day". I'm finding it quite hard to sing "Oh Happy Day" without feeling like I'm doing it all vocally wrong and getting the distinct feeling I will lose my voice if I do too much of it. (it sits in the lower/middle part of my range and I am singing in chest)

Do you think it is a very tall order for a singer to learn to switch gears like this without injury?

You know, if it wasn't a mixed age board, I'd tell you exactly which part of me you can kiss tony.

Instead of assuming your great god-almighty posture, you might try actually getting to know people on the board. WHo knows, you might find you have something to learn from us - even lowlife scum like me.

For example, while I might have only been training in voice for a couple of years, you might be interested to know that I've worked as a university lecturer for more than a decade. I could teach you a lot more about teaching than you could likely teach me about singing - and my students actually LIKE me.


And I have four degrees, mate. Studied voice production as part of my first one. Which part of your ever-so-complicated post do you think this poor little girly girl failed to understand?

FAO Jod - oh yes they get technical teaching OK in my famous sensitive and caring manner I warn wannabe's on the phone about the way I teach A lot of jazz singing teachers and groups focus on performance I don't, good vocal technique is paramount and not compromised on
I also give out sheet music and lyrics and I record the melody on whatever recording system they want to use

Ditto jazz piano - it is not a soft option - the techniques may be different but you still have to play and play well as as early jazz is very percussive Mr Waller and Mr Tatum were not exactly slouches on the piano

GOOD ON U MEERKAT
i'm sorry if i'm only still at school but a lot of us on here are LEARNING. Meerkat, you seem very approachable so just wandering are you a teacher or pupil?
And also Tony i think meerkat is right we are all meeting each other and learning from each other. You should remember that

Four degrees eh gosh - not including a degree of humility perhaps
University lecturer eh I was a member of Leicester University Senior Common Room when I was 23 mate
so nyer nyer nyer

Now who is indulging in boasting and self aggrandisement

Oh my god. The irony....

I think you'll find that my response to your pathetic attempt at putdown is pretty much the only reference to my profession or my education that you'll find on this board. Whereas your desparate posts about how terribly important you are (wonder why my actually famous singing teacher's even more famous spouse has never heard of you?) litter the place. Can't move in this forum without tripping over your overblown ego. And that's not feedback I'VE ever had here, is it?

Do you not think it's remotely possible that there's something in the regular feedback that you get here that your arrogant, unpleasant posts render it difficult for anyone to imagine you being a remotely competent teacher? I know you have to develop rhino hide to perform professionally, but yours really must be industrial strength.

Yes, it was pointed. Sorry, I didn't actually imagine I was being subtle. I'm tired of the overweaning arrogance of this man. I'm tired of his constant putdowns of anyone who he doesn't imagine is an awfully important professional like him. And you know what? I'm not alone in this!

I read this thread and though, I asked these the questions Tony asked well before I started teaching singing in a more popular style.

I really thought for once there would be some sensible discussions about the differing techniques. Instead its launced into a slanging match.

I started a thread as a follow up to what AnnC was saying about jazz singing lessons
I wanted to start a discussion on aspects of jazz vocal tuition that would be of interest to
other teachers

Some points which may impinge on vocal teachers of all genres

1 The lack of proper vocal teaching in some schools - my inner city borough is notorious for this - rap and hip hop rule - diversity is fine but not when it excludes all others

2 The lack of any training in music notation reading - its all done on computers

I am going to ignore the snide comments - if people want to contribute that's fine

Please note for the sensitive among you - if you choose fine to use abuse and sarcasm as a weapon - but be prepared for a response

Sorry about before.
I do think vocal trainign in schools is very important.
In my primary school we all sang a lot but this was not really training but was more as a method of introducing younger people to music. But, thanks to this a lot of us became musical.
At my secondary school there is basically no singing but you can have singing lessons as i do. However, following the departure of one of the schools music teahcers a new man was hired for the choir who taught a lot of methods.

Good so this is a real singing question forum and not a thread about how to cause offense.

About point 1) I agree, singing provision is lowsy in some areas. This is almost certainly why I have so many children on my books.

About point 2) There's nothing wrong with appropriate use of educational software. In your opinion why is notation important? (I know why I think its important but I want to hear your ideas first)

Oh, I'm quivering. You're so manly, Tony....

I am not against education software per se I use it myself and intend to invest more heavily in technology to develop additional services for my own pupils

I have a number of younger pupils coming through who simply have had no acoustic musical instrumental experiance. They have been left unsupervised to work on computers to produce music. Nothing wrong with that except they are handed from one supply teacher to another and do not get any musical education

2 Music notation - I want to enable singers to be able to read a single melody line because
2.1 Learning the actual melody as written with the introduction and the rhythm is more efficient
2.2 Learning by hearing is fine providing the student is listening to exact an record of what is written - too many students will learn from a CD with a different version of a song and then wonder why they go wrong in performance or audition. Their favourite artist will have their own arrangment which may have a different introduction of a song
2.3 When singers buy music they need to know the ranges and what they mean - if they can read notation they know what they are buying
2.4 Students need to learn to count and keep in rhythm - if you take your music to a club or use a different accompanist you need to know musically how the song works - because that is what the pianist or accmpanist will play

2.5 Jazz is about using your voice as a musician - learning to swing - learning to fit in with other musicians
Reading music is not the whole story but is part of that

I always tell my students that singing without reading music is like wanting to be an actor and not being able to read your lines. If you want to sing professionally, someone, somewhere, is going to give you some sheet music and say - go away and learn that - see you tomorrow.
I suppose jazz is different, but I wouldn't want to learn a language, for instance, and not know how it was written.

Thats a really good answer to the question about music notation. I admit I have some who can not read music, but the reason they're given the music is to show them the direction and flow of the musical line, the note heads being like a graph.

I accept, particularly with the children I teach that many sing by ear and have excellent musical memories. Tony, I find that learning to sing off sheet music and music reading for singers is different from music reading for an instrumentalist. Knowing that the middle line of the treble clef is where B sits is fine, knowing what B feels like to that singer is more important.

There are many excellent Jazz musicians who do not read music so although I thinks it important the amount of emphasis I give it depends on why that student wants singing lessons.

Ann, I agree its like an actor who cannot read their lines. Again I've seen some wonderful performances grow out of improvisation.

I think however I want to get the voice production right before I clamp down on reading the music.

However, any song sheet I produce has the melody notated. I don't produce "just words" unless the child has learnt the song off the sheet music, has the rhythm right because I've pointed out how their notes relate to the accompaniment and it's purely an aide memoir. Just putting the notes infront of a child constantly helps them pick up rhythmic notation and work out the high notes and the low notes. I am fed-up of my son saying to me "can you teach me to sing this mummy" and only being given words. How on earth do I know how the tune goes. I've asked the school for the sheet music on numerous times - sometimes they even give to me.

I'm finding this thread very interesting. Several things have been said which are giving me an insight into how singers learn to sing. I want to respond, but have spent the last 15 mins trying to sort my thoughts (unsuccessfully) into a suitable response. I'm not "a singer", but I do sing, I also accompany, and am a piano teacher. If I can clear the fuzz in my head I'll try again later!

Just one thought though.



Very true. If I'm playing for a singer who's doing e.g songs from musicals, I play what's on the copy, and what's on the copy for the piano part is often what the singer is singing (the melody line always seems to be incorporated into the accompaniment). A departure on the singer's part from the melody can sometimes result in a horrible clash with what I've got on the copy. My solution to this is to be selective about which bits of the melody I play - quite often I leave the melody out and just play the underneath parts.

Jod - most of my jazz pupils are adults or teenage voices - some have played or play other instruments - they are not so much the problems It is the wannabe blues or soul singers who need special attention is often they aremusically literate I agree totally about vocal production - in the initial stages of teaching | do not focus on performance but on the usual vocal techniques

The point about the piano is very valid - I will from time to time get performers who are auditioning for West End or touring shows who need to go through songs I have to explain to them that they must learn the song as written not how they imagine it would sound

Some points I always mention when taking auditioners

1 If there is a long introduction get the pianist to give you a bar intro - standing there getting more and more nervous while plays four bars is not helpful to the auditioner
2 If there are repeats photocopy the music and tape it together so the that pianist only has to play what is front of them
3 It is unlikely that auditioners will get to sing a full song mark the passages that show off your voice to the best advantage and get the pianist to play that passage only
4 Do have the song in the right key for your voice - if necessary pay for a transposed copy - obvious I know but it is amazing how many don't

There are lots of pieces of software out there that could help you, Tony, one of which comes free with Windows. If you're using Mac or a Unix based system, I imagine that there is something around. Can I please ask that you do use punctuation, as I have stated before, because your posts are very difficult to follow without it, whether you can see it or not!

Cheers.

Cheers Freda - I think the answer is a bigger screen
I am going to structure my posts into bullet points so that info can be absorbed more easily

Get it in the right key and transpose if necessary - I've done that. My copy of Sondheim's "Loosing my Mind" has been jacked up a fourth (i think). The colouration of my voice is then right for the song, and I'm not growling.

Although on the whole Tony its better to chose things that were written in the right key for your voice to start off with. With a soprano, unless they have exceptional low notes, "Maybe this time", "That ol' devil called love" and "Crazy" are likely to be a bit of a disaster even if they are transposed.

David do they want to sing things that ar too big and too low along with backing tracks too!

I wonder if their parents would be that happy with the lyrics either!

I've had this too. You suggest they get the music in a higher key, and they throw a wobbly at you... probably now can't sing along with Christine Auglilera! I wouldn't bar them, just look at the other stuff they like too and steer them to that instead.

FAO David and Jod
I use the The Definitive Jazz Collection 86 songs published by Hal Leonard
ISBN 088188 8 56 7

It songs like God Bless the Child - Stormy Weather - After You've Gone - Misty Night and Day

I usually start singers with Stormy Weathers it is slow and bluesy and fits nicely in the middle of the voice
They all want to sing Summertime which can be hard

The album has the vocal line - guitar chords and full piano score for transposition I busk the arrangement in a higher or lower key depending on the singer

Lyrics - I might be manly and arrogant but I am not going to sit cringing while a 13 year old tries to vamp me and her mum with some raunchy lyrics