Just got back from my hols...the 3 Piers Adams/Red Priest CDs I ordered aren't here BUT I do have a packet to pick up from the post office
In the meantime I'm just kind of cuddling my recorders cos I missed them and thinking about sorting out some lessons again

Wow! - I would LOVE to see Red Priest. Unfortunately they don't seem to be coming to this neck of the woods anytime soon. The treble was definitely the nicest and mellowest sounding one of the three last Friday night too (he played a concerto each on treble, descant and sopranino).

Just currently toying with the idea of buying a tenor recorder, just a plastic one (to get myself started with it).....

I keep checking on the Red Priest website to see if they're coming our way in the future. We've been to a 'Nightmare in Venice' concert, I'd love to go to a 'Pirates of the Baroque' one.

The Nightmare concert was actually quite scary at the beginning. It was in a large church, suddenly all the lights were dimmed, then the musicians appeared from behind pillars and from dark corners, dressed in hooded robes so you couldn't see their faces. Some of the children in the audience were quite frightened, but not for long.

I always mean to ask, anyone know WHY they are called Red Priest?

Vivaldi's nickname, perchance?

That's it!

So far, the concerts I've heard or heard about have all featured some Vivaldi somewhere, though not always played as we're used to hearing him played....and hoorah for that too. I was really worried about my dad ever hearing their version of the "Four Seasons", because he has particular affection for the music, as he was given a recording of it by a very close university friend, but this summer I heard that another friend of his had let him hear the Red Priest version...and he loved it. I usually end up exclaiming "no! outrageous!" when I hear it again, but still think it's fabulous. And knocks the spots off the likes of Nigel Kennedy every time....

Oh! Of course!

Duh. Yes, I do need the obvious pointing out on a regular basis

Hello all,

I'm just a novice recorder player. I learnt to play the descant at school and I've finally gone and got myself a treble, an ordinary plastic Aulos. I'm having difficulty with the low F. It never sounds quite right to me - rather fuzzy, not very clean, a bit noisy. I don't think its a problem with covering the holes properly. When I play the note, I can feel the treble vibrating. Changing the angle doesn't seem to help. I don't know what I'm doing wrongly. If any has any advice, please help!

Ooooooooh, just got home to 3 CDs waiting for me:
Red Priest - The Four Seasons
Piers Adams - Vivaldi recorder concertos
Piers Adams - English Nightingale (Virtuoso recorder music 1590-1830)

It's a shame my drive to work is only 30 mins...I might have to sneak one in to the office and listen on my laptop (ooohooohoooh, or that shiny new iPod that I got as a 'work bonus' yesterday )

I've got the English Nightingale CD, it's really good although a bit scary in places, how does he get to play so fast?

sgl02: it doesn't sound as though you're doing anything wrong really, it could just be breath pressure. Are you sure you're covering all the holes correctly? It can be a bit tricky at first. Keep persevering!

There's loads of good music for treble players who haven't been playing long, have you got enough to keep you going? If not, there are lots of players here who could suggest ways of spending lots of money

Hi, welcome to the forums, to a fellow novice recorder player

What exactly do you mean by fuzzy?

It's often one of the difficult and weak notes, that bottom F, and may just be the instrument. Might also be worth checking that the joints fit relatively snugly though, and I would also fiddle about with the position of the foot, just in case a better angle of rotation fits your little finger more neatly. I find that even when my pinkie seems to be covering the holes fully, if the F is weak, that this will often make a big difference. If you find the perfect angle, and don't mind doing this, you could make a tiny scratch from middle section to foot, to mark how it lines up best for you. I have to say I never could bring myself to do that on my wooden ones, though. One final thought - check that your right thumb is also comfortably placed - if it is strained in any way when the other fingers go down, then the pinkie is very highly likely to be out as well.

Hope this isn't a daft question. I'm trying to make progress here without a teacher. Is it imperative to stick your thumbnail into the thumbhole in order to half cover it? I've always just slid my thumb to the side a bit and am able to get the notes okay like this, but is this a bad thing to do?

I have more luck with the pinched notes by bending the thumb instead of sliding. You just keep the same angle and point the nail towards the hole. Works best for me.

Do what works and don't worry too much how. The problem starts once you start playing about in the third octave, when really aggressive pinching is needed - but I had a friend who bit his nails so badly that there was never anything but finger-pulp to pinch with, and he had no difficulty at all in getting the high notes to speak.
I had the opposite problem - couldn't get my Moeck Rottenburg to speak at all for top F, pinching with nails, pulp or anything in between and wore the thumbhole right down trying. Didn't realise it was the instrument rather than me - it went back to get the thumbhole rebushed, and the technician put a collar of plastic in the head - and bingo! Top F speaks, nae bother. Wish I'd known earlier....

Is it actually possible to slur from bottom C to bottom E flat (on descant)?

If so, /how/?
It's defeating me completely at the moment.

T.

Trying lifting up RH3 from te C

Would the same fingering normally work for treble low f to Ab? because i tried it and it was way out for the Ab

I couldn't get it work on descant either.

I need it for C minor arpeggio. I've been practicing all the scale things tongued so far and tonight was my first serious attempt at playing them legato and I'm finding where all the problems are. That one seems to be the worst, though there are a few others as well.

T.

I could have sworn it worked for me last night

I guess its just going to be a case of rocking the RH3 back then rather than trying to slide it.

I have a quick question for all the knowledgable recorder folk on the forum - what's the difference between a keyed and keyless tenor?
I mean to say, obviously one has keys and the other one doesn't, but what are the practicalities/advantages/disadvantages of each?
I've had a look at the plastic tenors available in my local music shop - they don't seem to stock anything much other than Aulos for some reason, but that's fine for me at the moment.
Just wondering which I should go for - if it came down to price I'd probably go for the keyless tenor, as that seems to be significantly cheaper, but would it be better to get one with keys?

(Ok, maybe not such a quick question, but I'd appreciate any advice - thanks!)

Well, you've already spotted the simple answer, Fibi. A keyed tenor has a or some keys (could be just the one key for C, or two keys so that C and C# can be played) so that the little finger doesn't have to stretch too far to play the bottom notes.

Whether or not to use a keyed instrument depends on your hands.

I have small palms and long narrow fingers, and thought for a long time that I'd need a keyed instrument. Indeed my good plastic tenor (a Dolmetsch Nova) is keyed, and was by far the most comfortable plastic recorder I'd tried. The person I bought it from found it uncomfortable to play, and a different instrument suited her.

But then I decided to get a wooden tenor, and tried a huge number of keyed instruments, none of which sat comfortably in my hands.....and then I tried a keyless instrument that fitted me just fine, so that became the instrument I finally decided on.

The only answer with any recorder choice is to try a lot of different instruments within your price range, and choose the one that suits you best. And then enjoy playing it

Thanks very much katyjay . I'll ask to try them next time I'm in there (I was a bit shy about asking and they were very busy last time)

I've also been having a look at the Dolmetsch Nova tenors (and basses) online, so maybe I'll have a bit of a further scout around there.

Don't be shy about asking to try, that's what the shop's there for

I spent a considerable time in a shop trying out a Nova bass (with Sarah-flute and Sbhoa watching...) before making a decision on whether to buy one online - answer no, it wasn't quite comfortable.

And don't assume that because a Nova suits someone else, it'll suit you. Try everything you can lay hands on first.

brr, no, that one is not easy. I use my wrist for that one, twisting it sideways very slightly to slip the fingers off, but it just takes a lot of slow practice, and I think you'd be forgiven a very tiny fudged tonguing using "l" to help .

On the keyed tenor thing - am I right in thinking the keyed instruments are actually slightly longer than the unkeyed, and that the bore of the unkeyed is appropriately wider to give the right pitch? Certainly smaller-handed people find the tenor in general difficult to hold, but the keys don't necessarily make things any easier, because you end up with the other fingers stretched apart, but the little one close in - it can feel uneven. Useful though for the person with a short little finger.
Anyone ever used a knick tenor? I saw one online, but haven't seen one for real.

You are right the unkeyed tenor is slightly shorter than the keyed. I am another small handed recorder player (think we should form a club?) who wrongly assumed that she'd have to have a keyed tenor. I find the keyless ones so much more comfortable for my hand shape.

Friend of mine has small hands and short fingers and uses a keyless tenor for that very reason

That's why I play keyed.

I didn't like the feel of the knick tenor when I tried it. Everything was too squashed up, and the keyed Mollenhauer Rottenburgh was the most comfortable for me in th end. Interestingly, although that and my Yamaha plastic are both keyed, the Yamaha is around an inch longer.

Hi I'm kind of in the same boat as sgl02, I learned recorder at school years and years ago and I recently found my treble recorder in the roofspace at my mum's and rescued it along with an old descant... Was thinking I'd like to start playing recorder again (like I don't have enough to do with my piano practise! lol) but I haven't a clue where to start - has anyone got any suggestions??

I had thought of going for some lessons, someone had suggested the society of recorder players might have some info but they don't seem to have any contacts in N Ireland so I thought I would just give it a go by myself and see how I got on... I wasn't sure what books would be ideal for an adult learner though?

I play piano so am ok with reading music etc but I'm quite sure my playing technique will be all wrong!!

Any advice/info would be much appreciated!

Thanks

Lucyb

You can certainly get the basics of the notes out of a book, but there is no substitute for a teacher, who can listen and help you to adjust what you're doing with tonguing, phrasing and so forth. I used a book by Hans-Martin Linde - my copy was in German, but I think it also exists in English, though can't find it amongst the books in my favourite recorder music shop here and the Alan Davis book, Treble Recorder Technique - though I see that one is very expensive...other players will have more knowledge of some of the others mentioned on the Saunders site. The Davis is good, and thorough, but aimed at players who intend to take the recorder fairly seriously.

Hi lucyb

I did more or less the same thing as yourself - had played a small bit of descant at primary school years and years ago, before recently taking up descant and treble

I actually bought a copy of the Alan Davis book to teach myself with after seeing it recommended to someone else asking a similar question on these forums. It does start straight away with a fingering chart (which is always useful) and then gives basic exercises - but these can get a bit dull after a while if you want something nice to play. There also seems to be quite a big leap between the earlier and later sections of the book in terms of difficulty. Having said that, it has loads of sections on further techniques (which I've tried a little bit of but have mostly just read through to see what they're about) and the whole book covers a lot of ground. As it is expensive, I think of it more as an investment in a very useful reference volume (which will probably do me for years to come!)

If you're not keen on some of the books aimed at younger beginners and as you're not a total beginner, you could always get yourself a fingering chart and a book of easy pieces to see how you far you can get with those

thanks fibi and anacrusis, sounds like I have a spot of shopping to do then...!!

Lucyb

What are the Küng studio recorders like? I´ve been looking at their website and the prices don´t seem ridiculous, but it says that they are more of an ensemble instrument. I´m looking for a treble to play with a harpsicord (and other instruments if we can find any more musicians).

Didn´t Maizie buy one a few weeks ago? If so, how are you getting on with it?

This one really is so much a matter of individual taste that, if at all possible, your best bet is to get to an emporium which sells lots of recorders and blow down any within your price range - there are instruments which have been reckoned to be great mentioned on here which just didn't suit me, and I'm sure the ones I have are similarly not going to be the first choice for others; it also depends on what you want to do with the instrument. (Having said that, it's really easy to say, OK, I like it, it's in my price bracket, I'll get it and if it won't do everything I want to do*, I'll get another to play the other stuff later..... What is it about recorders that they, er, accumulate so easily?)

*for example, I really "need" a transitional descant for the three volumes of van Eyck....

Yes, I got a Kung Studio treble (cherrywood) in July. It's lovely It has a lovely warm sound, initially I didn't actually like the design too much (I wanted something less curved, think Moeck Rottenburgh), and this particular one has a bit of an odd grain pattern going on.
However, it is now absolutely beautiful with its unusual grain and I wouldn't swap it for anything (OK, not actually true, I'm sure I would swap it if someone was offering me something handmade and fancy and lovlier and wotnot )

But I couldn't recommend more strongly going somewhere where you can try lots of recorders. I would never have chosen a Studio from looking in catalogues, etc. The lady at the London Recorder Centre started me off with a Rottenburgh which is what I'd been thinking of ("Oh yes," she said, "they are lovely; my first recorders as a child were Rottenburghs" ) and I even got to try a few out of my price range just to play with different woods and see if I could tell the difference. It was also just great being somewhere that there were lots of recorders, being sold by someone who knows about recorders, and knows recorders are proper instruments. We talked about what sort of playing I did, and of the three recorders I ended up seriously having to choose between, it really did come down to working out which one we (me, shop lady and my husband) felt best suited me. That's not something you can do online or over the phone...

Oh, while I'm here, is anyone going to the Greenwich Early Music Festival in Nov? I was thinking I might go but I might end up going on my own (as I don't think it's my husband's thing - he'd come along to be with me but it's not really his ideal day out). Going on my own in London will be a bit scary for me (I'm agoraphobic) but the thought of some recorders at the end of my journey will probably persuade me to get there - and part with money no doubt while I am there

Thanks anacrusis and Maizie, that's helpful.
One problem is that there are no recorder specialists here. I can go to the big music shop where I know they have some mollenhauer, moeck and küng instruments, however, I can't expect that anyone there will be able to give me any helpful advice. On the other hand I don't want to wait until my next London trip because that could be another year (and Mr Flutecake really doesn't like my plastic treble).

Maybe I'll set a reasonable budget and then if I decide in a year or so that I want something different then I can upgrade expand my collection.

If I buy a Küng studio, I may be able to stretch to the matching descant as my aulos has gone AWOL.

I was seriously considering going along actually. I might not be able to make the whole weekend (as it would involve booking time off work which I probably won't get, but was definitely thinking I could manage a day or two of it). I'm in the same boat as yourself, Maizie - I had asked my OH to come along, thinking he would automatically say "no", but he shocked me and said "yes" (it's really not his kind of thing either, none of my musical stuff is, but he's very patient ). I had put the plan on the back burner for a while though, as I was beginning to realise that he might not actually be able to go, and was unsure about going by myself.

I'm going to the Early Music Exhibition on the Sunday (11th Nov, I think). I'd prefer to go on the Friday or Saturday really, but am teaching on the Friday, and it's Recorder Orchestra and SRP on the Saturday. I usually take a few pupils along with me, so that they can have a go on all the instruments there, but I go mainly to browse through the music.

Oh dear, is it that time of year again already?

With my timetable as it is this year, I'll *probably* visit on the Friday.

I have a Kung Studio Treble in plumwood. I got it at the Early Music Exhibition a couple of years ago and love it, especially the lower notes. I've also played a grenadilla one that was gorgeous, if it's owner ever decides his arthritis prevents him from playing I will make him an offer.

I'm hoping to go to the Exhibition this year - I normally go on the Friday, my bank balance/will power wouldn't cope with more than 1 day.

Yeah, was just browsing Ryanair flights - eeek! They look so cheap before you add on all the extra taxes and charges, so my bank balance will already be taking a wee bit of a hit before I even get there and start trying out recorders.
I'm not really interested in buying a wooden instrument just yet though as I'm just not at a level that would warrant one. I'll just have to keep repeating that to myself if I do make it over

Tell me about it CJB!

I will probably end up walking away having bought sheet music at least, and in all probability an instrument or two as well...

Quite pleased that it looks like I've got more time to visit this time - I should, all being well, have much of Friday to look round.

A Cunning Plan springs to mind....


Who's up for a Forums Outing to the Early Music Exhibition on the Friday?

me me me me me me me me me!

Might end up buying a garklein!

I thought you were after a bass next....

OK, Barry, calm down!!

And that.

And a wooden descant.

Decisions, decisions....

Sulks and pouts. I'll be teaching. I'm probably going on the Sunday.

that's a pity. Sunday is Remembrance Day, which definitely rules that day out for me...

It almost certainly will rule it out for me too, but I might make it in the afternoon. I haven't done so in three years of trying, though.