I've been known to use the same technique for clarinet - but that's little finger.

Getting back to recorders - what did others make of the recorder player tonight. I loved her performance, lovely variety of repertoire even if I don't think I'll ever learn to love the Linde. She definitely made me sit and listen in a way the clarinettist playing at the moment just isn't. Obviously he's very good, I'm happily listening just not as engaged as with the recorder.

I've started playing recorder this year and so was desperately hoping I'd enjoy her playing. Oh, it was delightful! I loved the early piece particularly. I realise I'm biased though. Wasn't she poised and beautiful on stage! I liked the way she presented the music to and for the audience. No eye closing or gurning going on at all.

Definitely agree with that result. Thought all were great but she was the only one that made me really listen.

The bassoonist was rather good too, in spite of obvious nerves!

Amazing recorder player! Very worthy winner

Wow.Well done Charlotte!You have certainly made us recorderists so proud!Hope you win the competition!


VIVA LA FLUTE A BEC!!!!

Oooh, she was superb, and made me happy, even having to listen on a tinny lap-top while looking after 4-year-old who played his mouth-organ at critical moments. What I heard of the others was downright impressive too, but she was just sooo enjoyable to hear, and looked so in control. Some woodwind players manage to look like they're trying to lay an egg, but I just love it when a performer looks and sounds natural and happy, and makes the incredibly hard look unreasonably easy, natural and flowing.

Oh, and from the other end of the musical-proficiency-scale, thanks loads to all those with helpful hints on A-flat/G issues, and thanks specially to the person who admitted they suffer too (I was worried posting here).

Recorder now ticks all the boxes: inspiring young up-and-coming players to spread enthusiasm, and a raison d'etre for my large greasy nose.

TO EVERYONE WHO READS THIS FORUM!WE CAN BE KNOWN AS RECORDERISTS JUST THE SAME AS ANY OTHER IST!WHY DOES EVERYONE SET US APART AND CALL US RECORDER PLAYERS.EVEN THE BBC DO IT!

The mediaeval piece had just the right edginess, and using the drums for accompaniment was superb: I got annoyed with the harpsichordist in the Castello, trying to be too flourishing when she had those expressive slurred repeated notes to play (it's a piece I know very well, and adore, so maybe I'm just being particular about how I like Castello to be served up), and though I groaned when I heard that she was going to do some Linde, she produced such a coherent rendition of it, playing with poise and conviction.

I also liked the fact that she was the only one not to go to a specialist music school - I'm still trying to work out what the difference was in presentation, because I felt there was something "other" about that. . I know that Mrs Musical Witnit will think me simply anti-elitist, but it's not that: it's more likely I think to be that any given institution will end up having a bit of a corporate approach in how to train a musician, and something of that will show through in the end product. Ironically, for an instrument which is apparently so limited, both in repertoire and range, it was the recorder which presented the greatest sense of variety.

I did also like the flautist's playing, which was expressive and technically whizzy, ditto the clarinet. I can't tell if my lack of interest in the other two was to do with the repertoire chosen (two of the sax pieces ended up sounding like the same thing to me, for a biggish chunk of each, and the bassoonist, hampered no doubt by the fact that it really isn't much of a solo instrument, chose rather a chocolate boxy set to play) or player/instrument problems: I don't really feel qualified though to judge. That was the other feature of this - the three judges really had to compare chalk to cheese to apples to oranges....

I don't like the word recorderist, and am happy to be a recorder player, or indeed a player of recorders - again though, just a personal thing .

Marchen by H.M.Linde is another fantastic piece and in my opinion is much more detailed than Music for a Bird.I am more than happy to be known as a recorderist!So good to know that the judges were in no way biased against the recorder as an instrument.Far too many judges in the past have been and it was so nice to read and hear positive comments about the recorder and the player.P.S I still prefer the word recorderist against recorder player hehehehe.

I don't know if it was to do with "schooling" but there certainly a refreshing lack of affectation whilst being completely engaging.

I completely agree my guess is the simplicity of the whole thing worked. What she wore was very elegant without detracting from her playing. There was just the right amount of movement for my taste and a really well thought out program.

I see on a regular basis the corporate approach to training musicians. It doesn't have to be full time music school other institutions are guilty of that too.

Looking forward to hearing the recorderist(have to make all of the people happy some of the time) in the next round




I suspect this might well have been taught but only going off the quality of daughters recorder lessons.

I wish the BBC had talked a bit about the recorders she played. I would be fascinated to learn about them. Was the first piece played on a renaissance recorder? I'm guessing the second piece was an ebony descant. The third looked like an alto or was it a tenor?

edit: I have just told my daughter about the "recorder player/recordist" debate and she's pointed out that makes her brother (trumpet) a "trumpist", which has caused much hilarity here.....

That is such a good point! It had never occurred to me before that we are rarely told anything about the instruments (OK last weeks rather expensive on-loan violin was an exception!). I suppose the BBC have to shy away from being seen to advertise any particular brand. And is a player of recorders the only one who really needs to swap instruments to present a varied performance?

love it hehe

Oh no! I've been studiously ignoring the YMOTY result by not reading the thread in question, and it's been posted here

Sorry Barry, I think us recorder players (sorry recollect I think recorderist sounds ugly) were rather excited, even those of us who play most of the other instruments represented last night.

No worries : I'll just offer you a pointy cap with a 'D' on it next time I see you

Just finished hearing the clarinettist, in my opinion he was beaten by a better musician

Yes, the first recorder had a renaissance shape, and had that wonderful open sound to match . I wasn't watching fingers to see which setup it has, but it'll have a more limited range than the later baroque styles.

The second was probably ebony, a descant, and will have been baroque: though the Castello piece is very early baroque, many will play it on a later style of baroque instrument because it goes up to a high C: the piece is variously played by violinists, cornett players, and recorder players (). The range of the piece means a C instrument is needed, and the virtuosity it requires make it fit best on descant - I have tried playing it on a tenor, but the latter doesn't respond quickly enough.

The final instrument was a treble, and she used various techniques, including playing of chords and flutter tonguing - that's the fun side of learning music like that (the downside being having to listen to it whilst learning it - I did not enjoy the process of learning Linde's somewhat similar Fantasien und Scherzi at all, but once "in the bag" the overall effect can be surprisingly satisfying to produce).

A lot of people seem to have misunderstood my intention!I like the word recorderist and do not consider it to sound ugly and I am interested to know why others do.I set out to simply make the point that we recorderists are on an equal level to other instruments and for far too long the recorder has not been accepted as on a level with many other instruments.Granted,times and attitudes have changed as we witnessed last night.I do not consider my instrument to be removed from any other and I dont feel the need to set out to be different in order to prove a point!We are all musicians who live,eat and breathe in the same world.

To be honest it just sounds wrong to me, then again ive never come across anyone else using the term recorderist Recorder player doesn't make me feel different, but then I'm also a clarinet, saxophone and flute player - I mostly consider myself to be a musician who plays whichever instrument I'm playing at the time.

For me, it falls into the same category as viola, tuba and euphonium : sounds a little odd with '-ist' on the end.

I am not interested in how people describe me due to the name of the instrument I perform/teach, yet I am interested in why people say that the name recorderist sounds odd or wrong!I suppose I am a bit of a devils advocate hehe

I'm not really convinced that the name bestows the status: really all we can do is continue to attempt to show the recorder in as good a light as we can manage, all of us who play. It's great that someone has done so in such a prominent way, and that the person in question also comes across as rather a pleasant character also helps her be a good ambassador for us. In the final analysis though, we do have to recognise that the sound of recorders won't be to everyone's taste, and that they do only command a limited repertoire: the main thing is to show as best we can that they they are not the horrendous-sounding nasty toy whistles of primary school reputation and worth spending time and effort on learning to play properly.

Amen to that. I'm off to do some practice on my plastic alto and then check my bank balance for a wooden one....I feel so inspired.
thankyou anacrusis for your info on the recorders she played. I think the last one looked as big as a tenor because the young lady is so petite herself!

I'm going to buy a chalumeau. Purely so I can call myself a chalumeauist. Because if there's one thing the word 'chalumeau' needs, it's another adjacent vowel

Either that or I want EMS to start selling their rackett kit again - so I can say "I'm making a rackett", followed by being a rackettist.

I now have to go and ask my friend who is a cor anglaisist what she calls herself.

We have a Chalumeau so Emsoboe can be a Chalumeauist before you .

She can also be a Cor Anglaisist and even better a Bombardeist None of them look right

You are a funny lot hehe.By the way Anacrusis,that is your opinion about recorders commanding a limited repertoire.I am of the opinion that just because the recorder doesnt fit into the classical period doesnt make the repertoire for recorder limited.Repertoire for recorder has vastly improved over the years as I am sure that you will agree Anacrusis so I see the repertoire as expansive and vast rather than your opinion of repertoire being limited,after all whos performance last night showed the most styles?

Looked like Renaissance alto, descant, alto

EDIT - sorry - answered later down the chain.

PS Regarding -ist. English is not an inflected language like say French, which means that the endings of words are not as fixed as they would be with some languages (needed to convey case etc). This results in there being choices sometimes with regard as to how to end a word. Some of the options arise for euphony - i.e. they sound better (or are easier to say). I am sure that is the essence of why we have euphonium and recorder players, as well as trupeters and drummers, rather than say euphoniumists.

I totally accept your comments tenor viol and have no problem with what people would like to be known as.

Historically accurate I guess. As opposed to the recording I have of Trotto - rebec, regal, tabor, nakers (all sounding "authentic" so far), electric guitar, bass and drums

I have said elsewhere that I think she showed the biggest range in what she did: however, we do have a huge chunk of renaissance and baroque music, and then a big silent gap, the classical and romantic eras, before the recorder can wake up again to the early twentieth century. In terms of time, certainly, the classical and romantic eras didn't cover so very many years, but in terms of music production, they are very very significant, and the hole feels like a big one. Looking at the eras in which we do have repertoire, I then see we tend to be a bit "fringe" even there, pinching repertoire from others, often: during the revival years we've also been up against the "not a proper instrument" prejudice, not fitting it with the more evolved orchestral instruments, and not included with ensemble work with others, even yet. Our modern repertoire tends to be limited to solo work or playing with other recorders, limited too to somewhat trite tunes often, with a few honorable exceptions, or the very avant garde, which is not always that accessible.

When putting together a programme for LTCL, I was criticised for "only having one modern piece" - I'd originally programmed four markedly different baroque pieces and one avant-garde - it was in fact fairly representative of our range, but in the view of the board, unbalanced, so it's not just my perception.

The comment about recorder players needing to change instruments in order to present an impression of variety can I think be answered by looking at the sound of recorders - they produce a relatively pure sine wave on an oscilloscope tracing, so have few overtones to enrich the tone. That very clean sound is hard work to listen to for a prolonged period of time, so changing instruments does indeed help with variety. The other thing is that different effects are better produced on different instruments - a bass has different responsiveness from a sopranino, and if playing consistently somewhere in the ledger lines, it's less wearing to listen to them being produced by the next smallest instrument up that at a bit of a painful stretch on a bigger one. Yet another factor is that recorders quickly get soggy and hoarse - it's not sensible to put one single instrument through the practice necessary for a full recital. Essentially you can't be a recorder player, not properly, until you can play a range of the family.

On the Great Name Debate: given that the recorder predates the orchestral flute and has the earlier claim on the name, perhaps recorder players should Arise, Assert their Rights, and insist on being called Flutists. The players of orchestral flutes can call themselves "Cross Flutists" if they don't like the idea of Traversty. On the other hand, maybe we just stick with the current names...

On repertoire I'm afraid I'm not a purist: if something sounds good on an instrument, that will do for me. I'm not sure the entire possibilities of the recorder have been explored yet.

Flauto dolcist?
Flute a beciste?
Blockfloetist?

hehe - in English anyway, that'd make the orchestral flautist a germanflautist

Think I'll still stick to the way I know - difficult to be sure whether end blown or side blown pipes really did come first, I think - I was recently at a museum in Kilmartin, where they had on display some very very early flutey things made from eagle bones, and both options appear to be almost equally old .

Love it anacrusis hehe

I suppose someone has to point out that young ladies who play treble recorders would then be Jungaltblockfloetistinnen

And mature spinsters doing same become altjungferaltblockfloetistinnen

Now come on there's no ist on the end

being able to call myself an altjungferaltblockfloetistinnen is one of the best reasons not to marry I've ever heard.

notmusimum - the -ist is hiding in the middle near the end

CJB - you'd need to miss off the -en at the end, or end up being plural

I love that facility in German of tagging miscellaneous words together to make ever more impenetrable huuuuuuge ones .


Yesterday my mum said to me, "well now, having seen that young recorder player, something to aim for, eh?"
Maybe not - for a start I couldn't carry that wonderful frock off, and the silver highlights suggest I ain't going to be young again any time soon.....but it does remind me I ought to get one of my set of instruments out and Do Something Serious. Which should it be? Voice flute, some Hotteterre or Bach? Treble, some Stockhausen?

Hope I'm not breaking up the thread by posting here...
my old school descant recorder (wooden, Schott's) is looking rather lonely in the drawer and I thought it was time I picked it up again. Played for quiet a few years during infant/junior school but cruelly abandoned it when I took up the viola at senior school. I should also add that my recorder days took place some considerable time ago!
Just wanted a few pointers- would you suggest practising on the Schott's or moving to another maker? Could anyone suggest a good (adult) beginner's book please? I have Priestley and Fowler's The School Recorder Book, vols 1 and 2 but they are ancient and are likely to disintegrate soon. I would definitely like a book for self study as I can't envisage taking formal lessons.
Thanks

I'd give your Schott a blow, and see what it's sounding like first of all . The only thing to watch out for is the fingering for the low F - if it's played with just the right index finger, plus the three fingers and thumb of the left hand down, then you've got a German fingering instrument and I'd stop right there and look for something else. But, if it's a "forked" F - left hand as before, and index and ring, and sometimes also pinkie, of right hand down to make an in-tune F, then you have English, or baroque fingering and can happily make your first forays on it, as long as all the notes are speaking nicely.

I'm not really able to advise you on a suitable tutor - one thing I do know though, if you find you like doodling around on the descant, you might want to consider giving a treble a go fairly soon too - fingered in F, so all fingers down=F rather than C - it has the better repertoire available to it and is also a little less wearing on ears after a while. Especially given you're used to the mellow sound of a viola .

niobe, as someone who's also in the process of dusting off school recorder skills, I bumped into a website I've already quoted: http://www.aswltd.com/adultmet.htm - it reviews a range of tutor books suited to adults.
If your Schott plays, give it a go, but if it has been repaired with selotape and is as hopelessly battered as the old wooden Schott my mother had when I was tiny, a new plastic recorder will cost no more than ?20 (probably less) and will be frustration-free and good. Aulos are supposed to be reliable. My 2nd-hand treble Aulos is giving me a lot of fun (yes, definitely much more mellow than my school descant). And the nice people here don't seem to mind my beginner questions at all. Have fun!

Hello niobe, I asked the same question on page 88 and got some very helpful replies from the lovely people here.
Good luck! (I'm still waiting for musicroom.com to deliver so wont't recommend my choice yet until I've tried it out).

Hi Anacrusis, Limh and Katemorrisviolin,
Thank you all for your helpful replies and useful web links.
My old Schott descant is still in good working order and definitely Baroque fingering (thanks for the reminder on that point, Anacrusis).
I like the idea of the treble too.

Until about 30 mins ago I had no idea that a recorder player had won the BBC Young Musician woodwind section - wasn't she fantastic!

Wasn't she! And she comes across in interview as a mature intelligent lovely young person. Let's hope we get to enjoy lots more of her recorder playing whatever happens in this competition.

... she's clearly a multi-talent too...

I'm sorry, I've got questions again. This time two. Firstly, I had a look at a plastic tenor recorder in a well-known 2nd-hand cash-for-things shop, and it had some sort of grease on the joints. Should I be putting something on the joints of my recorder? I have no idea what it was. I don't remember having to when we were at school, but that was a loooong time ago. I didn't dare ask the shop owner.
Also I am not happy with my pinched notes. I love the pure tone of the recorder in its bottom octave, but when I play pinched notes there's a sort of windy sound underlying the main note - I can't really describe it but it's a little bit like the wind blowing across the top of a bottle. I don't know how audible it is from a distance - it may be one of those things that is most obvious to the player. I've tried varying the size of my thumb-hole but all that happens is the general tone of the windiness gives the impression of moving up and down in general pitch (without the proper note changing), but between the extremes where the note fails, I can't make the windiness go away. heeelp!
Sorry to keep asking things - I really appreciate the help.

Joint grease - the minimum needed, is my view, and if the instrument is fitting together with just a shade of resistance, so a good seal but not sticking, grease is probably not needed. Admittedly with my wooden instruments I'm oiling them from time to time and don't need anything else - the point is that too much grease can build up and make the instrument really difficult to put together, and even harder to pull apart again. The trouble is that people put more on when an instrument is not going together very easily, thinking to lubricate the tenon, but the result is that it gets more difficult, and a plastic instrument would then need a bit of a wash to get the grease off again. Probably with a soft brush and washing up liquid.....On the other hand joint grease can help if there appears to be a leaking seal with some notes sounding feeble, especially at the bottom of the range.

Some windiness is usual when going up the octave (is it just me, or does that sound vaguely vulgar? ) but yes, thumbhole technique comes into this, as does the quality of the instrument and again, snugness of the joints. I'm probably a bad influence - I've tended to thumb by angling my top thumbjoint, which can cause the nail to dig in rather, but was also a nailbiter once, so have relatively short nails. Do make sure the thumbnail is suitably profiled (I think John Everingham, on the Saunders Recorders website, has a photo of what's suitable and a whole lot more too, here...), and this applies whether you use my technique for half holing or simply draw the thumb pad aside a little. My habit did destroy one thumbhole, on my first treble, of maple, but since then I've got wise and have had my instruments thumbushed at the earliest opportunity. The other thing which affects tone in the upper register is quite simply breath support - you do need enough support. The low pressure nature of recorders means people are often afraid to put enough air through them - one way to tell what's needed is to play some of the lower notes and then push them up the octave without changing thumb position, slowly, and listen for the tone deteriorating just before they jump up. You need at least that sort of support for the lower octave, then a little more yet in the next storey. I hope that makes sense....

anacrusis, you're a star. Thanks so much. Lots of peeping-noises from garden shed while I explore wind-pressure. I will also have to borrow my wife's nail-file and stop relying on gardening-abrasion to maintain nail-length... The Saunders site is great: my thumbnail doesn't look like that, and nor does how I use it - work needed!

Have been having fun with the old descant this week but the penny soon dropped that it is horribly flat. Does this suggest deterioration of the wooden instrument -or the player - or perhaps both?

Have decided to buy an Aulos treble but want to keep up to speed with the descant so any thoughts on the sound quality of the descant would be appreciated.