Very amusing little exchange of posts! PianoNotes, I bought up a big proportion of the grade 6 syllabus.
Playing violin is a hard slog of work; I'm finding I am much more naturally suited to recorder playing. There's no chance of me ever having recorder lessons, sadly, because of where I live, so I'm just going to buy lots and lots of recorder music, watch the great players on youtube and see how far I can go. If I can get to a reasonable advanced level eventually, there would be opportunities to play and perform here in a baroque ensemble and with various others. Maybe my little five part recorder group could grow into something really rather good.
Good violinists are plentiful on the island, but advanced recorder players are scarce so that gives me more of a chance eventually, if I can ever get to a good level, of, well.....opportunities to show off, basically!
I'll need grade 8 violin to get my foot in the door of the back row of the most amateur local performing orchestra. That's probably never going to happen. Recorder gives me more of a chance to eventually do stuff in the more informal ensembles that are around.

I've just heard someone playing the recorder and I can't find out where the noise came from!
My bedroom window was open but no-one else's is and no-one's outside....

Now when you mention 'noise' ... the melodic sort or the 'I wish the neighbours would quieten down' sort of noise???
Perhaps next time this happens you could track down the other party by playing your own recorder by way of response (thinking of owls here, if you know what I mean!)

It'd be great to find some more recorder players; I only know one, and she has got embarrassed about being rusty, and won't play. It is always difficult going back to an instrument you once played very well...

My copy of Alan Davis' method had a worryingly near-pulp experience today. I take some music and my recorder when I go out with Small Son so if he has a snooze in his pushchair I can park us somewhere secluded and do a bit of practice (probably not outside your window, AngelGirls29!). Yesterday the music, in a padded envelope, must have slid out of the pushchair on the way back, because it was gone this morning. But really miraculous: I took Small Son out for a morning walk retracing our steps and found all the music strewn around in a grotty patch of grass and weeds near some advertising hoardings - no sign of the envelope, but everything else found. Slightly damp (it rained a little overnight); and excercise 24 of Dolmetsch on-line method had been nibbled by slugs, but they (like me) had found it heavy-going and given up after a bit(e)...

I am so relieved to have the Davis book back, and to have lost nothing but an old bubble-wrap envelope.

Glad you got it back, and thanks for the at the thought of exercise 24 being nibbled by slugs...

It was a descant and a tune I don't know so I think it was a person not a dream...
And it was definitely a tune rather than a noise (oops!).
I was trying to track them down and I think I've narrowed down the candidates (we live in a school/children area but it sounded too.... mature? for any of the local children) to a few of the people.

Limh, if it was you I still wouldn't have seen you! Glad you got your pages back! That was lucky! Maybe someone thought it was an envelope filled with 50 pound notes?

Recorder hunting calls?

Wolves howl at the moon, recorders play to the dawn?
When it stops raining, I'll try playing with the door open.....

Today I bought my first recorder CD, Engels Liedt, Jacob van Eyck. Beautiful.

I got a couple of Red Priest albums recently and have been listening to them for the last week. So exciting and inspiring to listen to, expecially the Bach one. The violin player is not too shabby either.
Limh I'm glad you found your book! Have you tried the Society of Recorder Players?
Kate

Doesn't listening to all that lovely playing make you just want to own some more recorders. I wouldn't mind a soprano recorder in the distant future but I wonder if it might be painful on the ears after a while.

what do you mean about the violinist? Julia Bishop is a fabby player....

Not yet, but thanks for that really good idea. At the moment I'm as reliable as a chocolate teapot because of family commitments, but as soon as I can, I certainly want to investigate the local recorder community and see if I can find a few like-minded and compatible friends. There is also at least one local professional teacher, but whether she'd have space or inclination to teach an unreliable adult I don't yet know.

I think that's what she's saying...

W

Yes willobie, that's what I meant! She's astonishingly good! Sorry for the misunderstanding, it's just an expression that's meant as high praise.

Sorry, I'd never come across it before.

Hearing wonderful players does make me covet the all-elusive magic "next instrument" - though I'd not have a descant as my next on the list - at the moment it's a baroque pitch treble I'm hankering after, and a peashooter, probably a tenor one. Yes, the descant peashooter is easier to manage from the point of view of breathing, for playing van Eyck, but a renaissance or transitional tenor...... oh, the sound.....

It's that English litotical thing of deliberately inverting something to understate it...

hm, I'm not going to blame being "only" half English on that one....

I'd heard "ain't half bad" before, just not this particular one, and the adjective didn't appear to work in relation to the production of music, more to clothing.

Julia Bishop's clothing is, for Red Priest purposes anyway, very nearly outrageous .

I'm on the slippery slope after just a couple of months...... yes, I've succumbed and bought another treble. Thought it would be prudent to have a second as I plan to start going to SRP meetings.
Well, that's a good enough excuse isn't it!

It's an excellent excuse, niobe! I've been toying with a spare cheapish plastic aulos treble, ostensibly for a fast-change when getting clogged, but actually because I'm curious about how my old, 2nd-hand big-square-letterbox-windway compares to the improved plastic recorders of more recent years with more carefully-shaped curved windways. I won't do it though; music and the eventually-for-lessons-fund are more of a priority.

I've got two questions:

Question 1: (not a relevant one, but I'm curious). What does the blowing-end of a Renaissance recorder look like? When I see groups on youtube they're always fuzzy and moving, and from the photos I find on Google they seem to have a much flatter end and no beak as such, but the photos are always from the front and it's hard to see. The bass version seems to be blown by someone holding the back edge of a square cap in their mouth... how does the windway work? Is it that the block ends slightly short of the top end of the recorder, and there's a cap on top with a cavity and you blow into the cavity from the back? I find they appear very elegant and beautiful instruments to look at, but I don't know how they work! Any explanations or links to any better pictures very gratefully received!

Question 2: as an adult learner with no teacher (yet), what are the symptoms of choosing bad repertoire to learn? I notice adults on many instruments choose overambitious pieces and play them badly, but don't have a point of reference to realise what's happening. The other risk is to get into a comfort-zone and end up playing much the same stuff continuously. How do you get a balance of adding challenge without playing music whose challenges are actually so great that I would miss the point, and just end up struggling to get the right(ish) notes in the right order and nothing much else...?? How can I judge my own playing honestly, yet without getting hopelessly depressed (professional recordings are a wonderful point of reference, but they calibrate the 1-10 scale of goodness only at the 10 end! I know I'm not achieving that level; but how bad am I? Am I good enough to move on to the next piece?)

Hi Limh,
Re Q2 I have the same concerns and that's why I've decided to take the exam route to have some parameters set for me. My plan is that by using material clearly flagged as suitable for a particular exam I will not become overambitious or fall into a cosy comfort zone. Have prepared for G1 but my paino tutor thinks I should aim for G3 for the autumn session. As I've mentioned before I'm a bit wary about aiming straight for G3, particularly as my piano teacher has never heard me play the treble. I'm self taught (can't quite adopt to the 'autodidact' label which our US friends seem to favour) but played descant for many years to a good level as a child. Anyway, my piano teacher has volunteered to accompany me when I take my recorder exam and in view of that we are going to have a session, not strictly a lesson, in August to try some of the G1 pieces but also to see what she thinks of my playing.
I'm using Orr as my tutor book and Time Pieces Bk 1 (covers grades 1-3) for my exam pieces.
I've found all the pieces in Time Pieces quite managable but am unsure about notes beyond high C. My chromatic tuner seems to suggest I am hitting the right notes but I am certain my technique is poor and this is quite tricky to learn correctly from a text book, no matter how carefully the instructions are followed. I fear bad practice may easily be learnt and become the norm. I have contacted a local teacher (rec by my piano teacher) but have yet to receive a reply - bad time of year as everyone is in holiday mode!
There are plenty of recorder do's and don'ts on the web but they are either aimed at complete beginners or the highly skilled. I find that I can only judge my abilities on whether I find a piece doable. Very tricky. I'm attending a SRP meeting this month and would like to attend regularly, if possible, after the summer break. I hope this will give me some idea of what is achievable by a relative beginner and it will be interesting to talk to other players to learn how they approach their recorder studies.

When I bought my first treble, at twenty one, I wanted to learn some material which was really rather challenging for me at that time - Brandenburg concerti 2 and 4, Corelli's Follia variations.....at that time the pinnacle of woodwindery for me had been grade 5 oboe some years previously, and that was it. I did try learning such tricky material, but also bought myself some easier music, and whenever I got frustrated with not being able to manage the hard stuff, would go back to the easier for a while...then try out the harder material again.

Ultimately I stuck, probably at about grade 6 level (and at the same time was trying to teach myself to play one of Vivaldi's flautino concerti, set at fellowship level, not that I knew that at the time). I don't think I'd got stuck because of trying to play stuff which was too hard - I got stuck because I didn't know how to acquire the necessary technique to move on. I stopped playing, resuming only at about thirty six, after hearing Piers Adams playing other material I'd also tried learning. However, the grade-6-ish ceiling remained, so when my husband told me there was someone who would be prepared to put up with teaching such a miserable student, I did actually jump at the chance for lessons.

It was the tuition which enabled me to move on, and my teacher who raised that bar for me, again and again. First suggesting a grade (I never thought I'd do one again, having failed grade 7 piano as a teenager), then after that one was an amazing success, suggesting I do another.....and after that a diploma.......and then another. Sadly at that point he decided he was outfaced by the job of teaching me and I had to hunt some way to find someone else willing to take me on to complete the second diploma. The many posts in the teaching forum about pupils from other teachers, and how horrible it is to have to teach them, had already made me well aware of how I'd be viewed, and add to that mature learner, even the previous evidence of success and application didn't seem to be enough to find me someone . I was very grateful to find someone (with the help of forum members, as it happens) prepared to do the job.

Very little in the way of bad habits had formed over that time, and none of them at all difficult to iron out - I did tend to move around a lot, and my second teacher helped me to put the lid on that a bit: I also tended to lift my fingers too high, which is inefficient when playing at speed, as well as risking tendonitis - and my first teacher put that right. The worst bad habit I think both teachers have had to cope with has been a poor sense of self-belief - the first made considerable inroads into that tendency, simply by expressing confidence in my ability and being very aware of when I was getting flustered and knowing how to defuse that. The second's more "come off it" approach then had space to work later on in the process. There is one habit I do see in some maturer recorder players which is very difficult to eradicate, and somewhat irritating if present - wobbliato playing. It makes duetting into a somewhat random experience, with the two instruments being in tune only some of the time.....

A bit off-topic for this thread, but I'd like to debunk this once and for all: as I've said recently I have taught relatively few complete beginners in my time, and I don't think that's unusual for private woodwind teachers. Most children have lessons in school in the first instance, and tend to move to a private teacher when they need longer, individual lessons.

I also have pupils new to school who have come from other teachers, and I am virtually always in that position at sixth-form college where I very rarely have complete beginners, and usually Grade 6-8+ students arriving. I have had as many issues with pupils I have taught from scratch as with transfers: as I said on another thread, when it comes to technique you can lead a horse to water...

The views you have seen on the Forums do tend to be from piano teachers, who by the nature of their job tend to teach beginners who stay with them.

I love your detailed posts anacrusis, you inspire me. Please could you provide a definition of wobbliato!
Everyone here inspires me, as I am attempting to teach myself. I love hearing how you're all doing, it keeps me going.

Thanks, all, for the replies.
Niobe, going to recorder events strikes me as a very good way to get a good picture of how people in general play, and a good chance to play with others. I will try to explore that as soon as family circumstances allow. It'd be huge fun too (although it requires a bit of bravery!)

Anacrusis, thanks so much for the encouragement. I assume by wobbliato you mean unintentional wobbling of pitch (and intensity) through bad control of breath? At least that is something that is concrete and audible, so given due warning (thanks!) I can watch out for that one carefully. I'm finding it interesting coming at recorder from organ, particularly having mostly enjoyed older music for smaller organs. It gives me a natural desire to develop good articulation, but means I never even thought about varying dynamics, or about deliberate tremolo. It also never occurred to me to think about grade exams. For me, music was "fun"and exams were "school", but now, actually, I sort-of feel it might be fun to have a go some day...

About teachers, I've read a few posts in the teachers' thread, just for interest, and been struck by the generosity of teachers there. When I was at school and university the attitude of many "real" musicians that I met was very much 'start at age 3 or you're a waste of space and we don't want to waste our time on you'. I even had one tell me I had "bad musculature in my hands" (he hadn't looked - he just assumed it because I was 20 at the time and had just admitted I'd only played keyboard instruments from about 13), and would therefore "never be able to play well". I was really upset. Here, most people seem very different, and I'm grateful for that. I'm still nervous about finding a teacher though. There is only one, locally, and if I mess up and don't appear to her as a reasonable student on first approach, I'm stuffed. She does group things as well as individual tuition, so I might try to apply to take part in one of her adult-education groups when I can do regular commitments again.

Wobbliato I think can also mean a deliberate - but not very good - vibrato. Vibrato can be a good thing, don't get me wrong, it's just in general it is better done as something slight and controlled than wide and wobbly.
Also, if you are duetting, then you should agree with your duet partner what you are going to do

Limh, I'll let you know how things go - the event is on the 21st. Will indeed have to summon up some courage as I haven't played a recorder in public for about 40 years!
I'm quite fortunate in that there are at least a couple of SRP venues withinin a reasonable distance - I've decided on Guildford which is the nearest at just under 20 miles away. I've been in touch with the Guildford and South Downs secretaries and both were extremely helpful so I would have no hesitation in suggesting that you contact your nearest branch.
Best wishes

Thanks for this: I hadn't actually observed that there was a particular group of teachers doing the moaning! I will add though - one of the teachers I contacted turned me down precisely because I was already learning: no word of whether or not I might have got too far, it was all about my having "baggage". .....this is also the reason why I've got stroppy in the past when reading posts from teachers going on about how awful it is to pick up the "messes" made by their colleagues.....


Wobbliato?
Think of a goat bleating, then take out the meh. It's a fast shake, with enough amplitude to be really noticeable - to the extent that in an orchestra of recorder players, it'll be heard over the top of the general ensemble.

wobbliato - ok, yes, I definitely hereby promise not to do that. Frankly I'm more likely to go to the opposite extreme and refuse to attempt vibrato at all (if nothing else because a little goes a very long way, and I find breath-control hard).

I'd already come across a YouTube of a well-known English tune being played veerrrrry slowly with Huge, Vast Vibrato, and although it was adorned with glowing comments, I personally thought it sounded horrible. It was like over-sugared meaningless emotion-wallowing. The lyrics, admittedly, are about Spurned Love, but if I were a young woman and heard my ex singing like that, I'd have given him a good slapping and told him to pull himself together and find a new girlfriend. Unless ladies in the reign of King Henry VIII were a lot less robust than today, I'm sure they'd have felt the same. Bah!

I'd imagine that any form of vibrato, even with care and taste, is high-risk in a recorder ensemble or orchestra.

Oh Anacrusis, you seem to have had some awful experiences with teacher-hunting. I'm just pleased things worked out in the end, and it is motivating to the rest of us: to know that set-backs can be surmounted. It's interesting that people didn't want to teach you because you were already learning; in the organ world there are teachers who will not take on a pupil without grade 8 piano. But since piano is a percussion instrument, and organ a wind instrument, it stands to reason that many (most) of the ingrained habits of a good pianist are completely inappropriate, even downright harmful, to good organ technique. Apart from both having keyboards that look sort-of similar, there is no aspect of the organ that in any way whatsoever ressembles a piano. In fact, curiously, recorder is probably a much better prelude to learning organ.

New treble arrived today- another modest Aulos, the 209B this time. Very pleased with it and it seems easier to reach higher notes than on my 309. I'm only working on high D at the moment (and that may not seem particularly high to you experienced folk) but I have been struggling and my new acquisition seems to be more forgiving.
When I purchased my first treble a couple of months ago I immediately fitted the thumb rest. However, in the light of some advice I've read on the web I thought I would try my new treble without the thumb rest and it proved difficult to hold. Am I a complete wimp? Should I be able to hold the instrument without a thumb rest?
Most grateful for advice/thoughts.

Hi Niobe

I don't think there's an absolute right or wrong about thumbrests. Each of us has different shaped hands and different strength in those hands, and so has different requirements from their instrument and its accessories.

Before making the decision about the thumbrest, there are a couple of factors to experiment with.

First, the angle at which you are holding your recorder. If it's pointed towards your shoes, gravity will take the recorder down out of your hands at the first opportunity. The automatic reaction to that is to tighten the grip you have on the instrument - which impedes playing.
Holding it a bit more towards the horizontal makes balancing it on your right thumb and lower lip more feasible, so that you don't grip the instrument so much and can play more freely - but obviously the heavier the instrument is, the more demand this makes on your muscles, so it's not the only and automatic answer.
You need to experiment with the angle you play at to find the optimum angle for your own build and instrument.

The other is my old friend, right hand position. A thumb rest fixes your right hand position in one particular place, which might not be the optimum place to produce the best coverage of the right hand holes. I'd suggest experimenting with a blob of bluetack first to find where you want the thumb rest to be for the best combination of keeping the recorder up while still being able to play it freely.

The only one of my recorders that has a thumbrest attached is my bass. And I don't use that thumbrest because the bass is too heavy and it hurts my thumb joints - I use a sling instead.

There is a tendency for recorder players to play to their boots, and it does cause all sorts of problems as well as the need to grip hard - airflow is compromised, and it's also harder to take a good breath because head and neck tend to flex downwards in such a playing position. So yes, hold the treble up well, and it becomes easier to hold. I do know of a teacher whose pupils all have a blob of Elastoplast stuck roughly where a thumbrest goes, but I couldn't bear to do that to my instruments - I have no problems holding mine without rests up to tenor - though the latter does require a bit of shoulder strength to maintain for a long time. Even when my instruments are freshly oiled, they don't slip .

Katyjay and Anacrusis,
Thank you so much for your helpful replies. I'll keep the thumb rest where it is on my first purchase but experiment with my new 209. Not aware that I'm playing to my boots (well, fitflops!) but I'll try raising the instrument a smidge. That may also help take my arms a little further away too to help the breath.

Can see I'll be undertaking some serious people watching when I go to my first SRP event to discover some more treble dos & don'ts!

hehe, we once had a professional photographer coming round the Scottish Recorder Orchestra during a rehearsal, taking shots of us all - he took one of me peering past the head of a Paetzold contrabass recorder - and I proudly put it up on my Facebook, only to be told by our conductor, who is also my teacher, that she was spotting all sorts of horrors as she went through the photos, and in my case that was a slanted left hand position . So do watch out whom you decide to observe....

People are never at their best when a photographer is around
I'll make sure I take some advice re the best role models

*yikes* *yikes*

Not sure whether to be excited or scared - and suspect the latter is going to be the bigger emotion of the two.....

Some years ago I was contacted by a lutenist, guitar player and theorbo player, who was wanting to do some continuo using the theorbo , and thought a flutey recordery noise might be quite nice to go with that - we organised some playing time at his house, and then left with a few ideas about how this could be pursued....then for one reason and another, it all fell through . However, I've just been recontacted to be asked how would I fancy doing a voiceflutey ad libitum part together with him and a singer doing the proper music . I'd love to, but can't pretend I have any ad libbing experience at all. Do I ask my jazz friend to help, or do I get a copy of the music well ahead of time and compose something to fit....?

Oh, and the singer is a Soprano, ie Fierce

Wow - sounds exciting!

Speaking from my improvisation experience I'd say a combination of both. See the music so that you know what sort of thing you're looking at and then have a play round to see what fits. You might find that every time you play something different comes to mind this is what happens when I do jazz improvs, I have the basic idea but the outcome can be different every time

That sounds like fun

well, I'm terrified of everyone who can sing, and since my voice emerges from me boots when I "sing", those who can sing at altitude are extra-scary

Oh, that sounds fun, anacrusis, but scary.

I feel strongly that the majority of tasteful and listen-worthy improvisation is about selecting musical cliches on the fly. It's about having a more-or-less unconscious repertoire of small phrases and musical ideas in your head, which you can glue together and fit into a piece of music while you're playing it. Most of us are not brought up in an environment that equips us with this repertoire. If you don't have it, you can't wake up one morning and improvise (but other cultures do concentrate on providing the equipment - e.g. French organ culture, which emphasises it vastly). A broad repertoire of cliches, well practised, well known, leads to a more varied and effortless-sounding improvisation.

No one should feel bad about practising ideas with a view to "improvising" them, or thinking through the ideas consciously in advance. It's a good way to acquire the repertoire. Particularly when playing with others, anyway, there must always be some agreement on improvisation (who does roughly what, when).

Also, as a listener, I don't care if the performers are improvising or not. I care about what they sound like. I want to go away thinking "that was beautiful", not "weren't they clever". Improvisation can be addictive to performers, because it's exciting and edgy. Unless the excitement translates into fresh and exciting music, while still retaining musicality, the audience may perceive the result very differently to the performers...

Good luck! If anyone can do it, you can.

I had to look up theorbo
Feel there are some gaps the size of the Grand Canyon in my musical knowledge!!!

thank you so much for the compliment, though I'm afraid I do mean it - it's an area in which I'm an utter noob...


well, you know, theorboes look like they would fill out a Grand Canyon quite nicely, they're so huge
They are also very "fringe": I only know about them because I married into a harpsichord museum which also houses examples of theorboes and lutes: close up, or indeed even from a distance, they are utterly gorgeous .

Ear candy....
Oh dear, sidetracked again....

This last is what I suspect I ought to be learning to do....

[quote name='anacrusis' date='Jul 18 2012, 03:47 PM' post='1160736']
[quote name='limh' post='1160662' date='Jul 18 2012, 09:48 AM']



Ear candy....
Oh dear, sidetracked again....

This last is what I suspect I ought to be learning to do....
[/quote]

Wonderful! It's not often you get a laugh at a Baroque performance - at least, not for the right reasons.

[quote name='Dripdrip' date='Jul 18 2012, 04:17 PM' post='1160741']
[quote name='anacrusis' date='Jul 18 2012, 03:47 PM' post='1160736']
[quote name='limh' post='1160662' date='Jul 18 2012, 09:48 AM']



Ear candy....
Oh dear, sidetracked again....

This last is what I suspect I ought to be learning to do....
[/quote]

Wonderful! It's not often you get a laugh at a Baroque performance - at least, not for the right reasons.
[/quote]

Eb clarinet and lovely baroque sounds

I feel the world of early music opening up for you

Do not stand between two theorbo players when they stand and turn - it's a very dangerous place to be (think Laurel and Hardy and the plank sketch...)

Unless they use nylgut (an artifical string) theorbos usually use gut strings - pity them tuning them. It's basically a 6 course baroque bass lute (six courses of double strings) plus 8 diapason strings - making 20 strings in all. Unlike the archlute (which is based around a tenor lute in G - same tuning as a tenor viol...), the theorbo uses re-entrant tuning, just to confuse you.

Great fun.

And the theorboist has to abseil back down the instrument after tuning .....

So I am being a really awful person, have put on Arpeggiata and am madly doodling, trying to keep up with that. Am going on the basis that it's going to take some megastars to make me feel okay about the noise I'm making - you know, like people listening to their iPods and singing along .....So, anyone within about fifty miles of my house - earplugs in, please (did I mention I'm doing this on a descant?) .

Go the whole hog and use a garklein...

So that's a theorbo!
Love the links