Happy little recorder-vignette last weekend: I took small son to a flea-market, and he spotted a pot full of assorted tin-whistles and recorders, ran over and grabbed one, and started peeping. I apologised to lady and asked if it was OK, and she responded "Yes, give us a tune". So I did, on which basis she knocked 50p off the price and sold me a little descant for 1pound50. It's a little wooden school recorder I'd guess (Adler), and quite cute if rather battered, and judging from Ebay, probably half its true value! It will definitely get played (appears to be English fingering). I also got Richard Jones Baroque Keyboard pieces vol. 2 for 50p. Thanks, ABRSM, for publishing this one. It's got so much useful information about baroque style and keyboard technique that it's valuable for anyone, not just keyboardists. Rather heavy on fingering, but I can understand why: the author is trying to tell his players about non-romantic detatched style, and how fingering fits in with articulation. It's only confusing when there's also a figured bass annotation too! Definitely worth the price(!) I'd have paid a good bit more. But we resisted a totally-beaten-up trumpet.
Sometimes the world is a nice place.

I might be in with a chance of buying a Tenor! It's keyed but only has one - will not having a C# be a disadvantage?

I also would like to buy some Telemann Sonatas - does anybody have any suggestion for a less taxing and technically demanding one?

You should be fine with a one-keyed tenor to begin with. My Yamaha tenor is one-keyed and it has been fine for most purposes.

The Telemann sonata in F major is good, although like most Telemann it uses a lot of high notes. I would suggest getting the Baerenreiter Hortus Musicus edition (HM6) which includes the F major along with three other sonatas.

I now have the sheet music for Linde's Music for a Bird. All I can say is

(Fortunately the balance will be redressed, as the item I'm awaiting on back-order is Baroque - Corelli sonatas )

Good luck. I'm still trying to remember all the fingerings - and Summer School begins on Saturday.

Having learned "Fantasien & Scherzi" by Linde - yes, you're in for some fun and games, getting that under your belt. There will be some recordings of it online though, I'm sure. The worst thing about avant garde music is the time it takes to interpret the score and work out what they heck they want you to do - the next worst is having the courage of your convictions actually to do it . But, get past that, and much of it is not so very dreadful to learn, and it's relatively easy to pass off as accomplished a performance which is probably struggling in places - at least, I've managed that .

Corelli, now - which ones?

Yep, that's why I'm going into the advanced ensemble.

Luckily I don't have any 'need' to get Music for a Bird sorted - we observed it is on the Advanced Performer's Certificate repertoire, which teacher had said would be a good step before my diploma...he was saying this as I was working towards (but not yet entered for) grade 7 (Still, have the G7 now, so it's a step closer!)
So, perhaps by the time I get to needing to paly it, somehow by osmosis of having it in the house all the squiggles will have sunk in a bit. I'm sure that's how it works

Corelli is sonatas 3 and 4 of the 'usual 12'. It was terribly bemusing, as I own a two volume set of six Corelli sonatas, numbered 1-6. But it turns out that these were selected from the 12 by the publisher, who then renumbered them 1-6 to make sense for their publication. So the number 6 I have in these books is in fact number 12
The numbers 3 and 4 (which are on the G8 list, not that we are rushing from one exam to the next, I promise ) are not any of the six that I own. So I have bought them, and now await their delivery, presumably as and when the shop I bought them from get it delivered to them.

Looks like we have the same set-up as I had for grade 5, 6 and 7 - already own most of A list and at least half of C list. Will work through almost all of these, going off at multiple tangents in to 'non-syllabus music', before at some future point narrowing it down to which ones I'd like to concentrate on...and at the same time reluctantly admitting that a B piece has to be chosen (I think between us we own about three in total from whole list, i.e. both the descant and treble sections!)

It's not one of my favourites, so I'm not looking forward to spending a(nother) week on it. The Telemann will be fun though.

Looks like I'll be playing Spot-the-Forumite next week, then.

Two good recorder experiences in the past week.
1. attended my first SRP meeting. The music was very challenging- I had never seen so many ledger lines but it was a great experience and I'm certainly looking forward to the September meeting.
2. ran through some exam pieces from Time Pieces (vol 1) with my piano teacher. She seemed happy with my approach to the G2 materials but her criticism was that nearly everything sounded a tad staccato. Fine for the piece that is mainly staccato but there was too much tonguing elsewhere. Felt quite dismayed as I had not picked up on that myself and I have been working on the soft 'doo doo' sound recommended by my tutor book! Obviously overdoing the 'doo doo' and now finding it hard to undo it! [Sorry for the terrible pun]. Feel this is one of the pitfalls of learning from a book, so easy to pick up bad habits. But overall quite pleased that I have managed to achieve more confidence with the high C and D - next stop E !!

niobe, there's a lot to be said for trying some very legato exercises. Being banned from tonguing at all concentrates the ear on accurate fingering and transfering from one note to another without transient noises where the combination of blocked holes is neither the first note nor the second.
I'm actually getting quite fed up because I'm so useless at this. Simple notes like first-octave E on treble to the G above become a serious challenge.

Again, slow shifting is the key, and dotted rythms. Don't try going back and forth at an even speed and then speeding it up - you'll tie yourself in knots. Focus instead on one of the two pairs of shifts - thus, play the E, and "flip" up to the G. Do it again. Be aware of what your fingers are doing as you do it, and imagine them working as a unit. Index and middle fingers swap as the thumb drops (though for goodness' sakes don't think it through like that , or you will be in trouble).
E (hold it.....)G
E(hold it......)G
E(hold it......)G
each time you're focusing on achieving that G. Then do the same, in reverse, with the G first and going down.
then back to the E and play dotted quaver, semiquaver EGEG, extending it as it gets neater. And the reverse order. Small bursts of that, not for hours, and you'll soon have it neat, and then you can try E-A .

Thanks again for the tips. I will try them. I'm finding the Alan Davis book very good at showing me things I can't do, and this forum very good at helping me out. The Davis book plus Anacrucial advice is a good combination!
Niobe, thanks too for the puns, and sorry if my comment about trying lots of slurred exercises was a bit patronising from a beginner like me. I appreciate your posts about experiences, problems and achievements - they resonate.

Limh, please be assured that I did not consider your comments to be patronising at all! It is always useful to have advice and I will definitely try the exercise you suggested.
Davis seems to be a popular tutor book. I'm using Orr and finding the text and exercises extremely helpful but I'm aware that I'm sometimes overzealous in the application of technique- think this has resulted in my 'staccato legato' . In the grand scheme of (musical) things I suppose this is a small problem* and one that regular practice/exercises will resolve.
BTW I mentioned Time Pieces in my earlier message - a really enjoyable collection and thank you to those who suggested it some weeks ago. In addition it includes pieces which can be used for G1-3 exams (and no need to purchase additional materials) so it is definitely a good buy.

*thought 'relatively minor' would be too much for the keyboard to bear in this hot weather!

Has anyone got any suggestions for tenor recorders? I have my eye on a couple but wanted to know if I should be looking Yamaha or Aulos?

Thanks

With tenors, the only real answer is to try them out. Different instruments suit different hand sizes and shapes.

I find my old Aulos (over 25 years old) a painful stretch and as its got a few intonation issues (D-D in particular is not an octave) it is possibly my least loved recorder. I know you've got bigger hands than me but the stretch on tenor is particularly awkward and all makes have subtly different hole placements.

Thanks for that info

Does anybody know anything about a Schott's Concert Tenor Recorder in Pear Wood? Would it be worth getting a second hand wooden recorder or should I stick to plastic at the moment?

Has anyone any experience of the new Triebert plastic recorders that have come in at the Early music Shop? I'm on the lookout for a new tenor. I don't want to invest heavily because I rarely play tenor, and even the cheapest wooden tenors are a significant investment unless you can snag one second hand. I am replacing my Hornby tenor because the mouthpiece on it is enormous, and the Triebert looks like it's significantly more subtle, plus it has a C# key on the Triebert. Just wondered if anyone had one or had seen them in real life anywhere?

EDIT: On a similar note, has anyone played the Aulos 211? I can't see how it can be smaller and still have the tone of a tenor, but maybe I'm being too simplistic.

There is a payoff between the diameter of the bore and the length of the tube to get the same notes, so you can have a slightly shorter instrument. Also can improve stretches by changing the angle that the holes are drilled through the bore. Not clever enough at the physics to understand it though.

Fun recorder video of the day!

Shove: Michela Petri - Donna Lee (Live) into YouTube

A nice little piece showing off Michelas talent and the wide musical range of the recorder!

Herr Helmholtz would have had us believe that a recorder works just like a violin string, with nice little waves along its length, and the pitch determined by length. But he also invented a resonator shaped more like an ocarina, the ultimate short-fat-low-pitched-recorder. Any whistle is a resonating volume, not just a long thin thing, and wide pipes have a lower pitch than narrow ones (which do approximate to a 1-dimensional string situation). Try googling for Philippe Bolton for some nice diagrams of waves in recorders. Incientally, someone once patented a 16'-pitch pipe thing for organs, which was small enough to fit into the organist's seat...

I've just got the Hortus Musicus Four Telemann Sontas for treble and reading throught the Preface it seems to suggest that it is written in the Old French Violin Clef (g on the first line). Is this any different to normal music?
The first piece is the Sonata in F major TWV 41:F2 - is the first note (which is two ledger lines above the stave) still a C or is it diffeent?

Also some notes have a little plus sign (+) over them - what does this mean?

I'm confused.........

If the clef is centred around a G and it's anything other than a C clef (like a viola clef but on any line) then it's almost certainly no different from what you are used to as the treble clef is a G clef anyway. The plus sign is usually for a trill, but I believe it can be used for another ornament at the player's discretion, something of an "add interest here" sign.

Where's the treble clef (g clef) symbol? If it's in its usual place on the second line, then it's a normal G2 treble clef. If it's lower than you'd expect, sitting on line 1 (where you's expect an E) then it is a G1 aka French violin clef or soprano clef, In which case, first line is a G, not an E.....

I suspect it's just saying that's what the original clef was: it's unlikely a modern edition would be that unkind...

It is in the normal place and I think that from watcing Youtube Videos and from playing through the music that is right to read it normaly but the preface is confusing:
'The recorder is notated throughout in the old French violin clef (g' on the first line). This method of notation was introduved towards the end of the 17th century. It reduced the number of ledger lines which are necessary for the upper octave of the recorder, particularly favoured at that time.'

I suspect it's telling you that it was originally published in French violin clef. In the printed music, is it a normal treble clef? If so, just play as normal!
FVClef is just dropped down a line, so a note on the bottom line is G and you play G. It's like reading bass clef . You'll find a lot of the music on imslp is in FVClef so it can be useful to learn to read if you want to play from facsimiles.

The + is the sign for an ornament. Usually you'd put in a trill (there is an argument that the cross is a corrupted t for trill, we are in the era before the modern trill notation was invented). However, it wouldn't be wrong to make it a different ornament if you so choose in this sort of baroque music, where ornamentation can be almost improvisatory. Listen to different recordings and you'll hear some people minimally ornament, and some ornament almost out of recognition - neither is wrong, it's just interpretation.

Compare this to someone like Hottetterre - he has a gazillion different symbols in his music, and prescribes which ornament is which symbol and you don't have that freedom of interpretation with your ornaments.

Thanks Maizie, I'm now pretty sure it's written in ordinary clef - what a confusing preface!

Does anybody know what sort of grade the first movement of Telemanns' Sonata in F major (in the Hortus Musicus book) is? I've surprised myself with my ability to play it; the only thing that proving hard is hitting the high notes without a run up and the semi quaver runs over the break (using a clarinet term here, is this what recorder players call it??! ).

Not sure about recorder grades, but it's currently a Grade 5 flute piece.

Well - I've just trolled through the Recorder Sylabus and I'm very surprised and a bit excited to find that the Vivace (which is the one I can pretty much play, just needs some work on continuity and high notes) and Largo are part of the Grade 6 sylabus for both Trinity and ABRSM!

The Largo seems to me a harder movement, even though it is only two lines long! It is pretty slow and I found it difficult to follow along with the one recording that I have heard due to the amount of ornamentation that the performer used. This is the time when I think that a recorder teacher would be really useful.......

Yeh, looking forward to attending recorder concert tonight and even managed to persuade my partner to come along too (and he's happy to drive )

How was it?

I have a lovely new baroque pitch voice flute. I'm now trying out a lot of my flute repertoire on it (but only ten minutes at a time this week while I play it in).

Recorder summer school last week was amazing - it was the first time I'd managed to go, and I learned a huge amount. I've got pages of squiggles: some French baroque ornamentation, some ultra-modern avant garde notation. I particularly enjoyed making strange noises on the foot joint and/or middle joint, and listening to Wendywoo doing the same - flutter tonguing into the middle joint was hilarious, but nearly impossibly to do whilst giggling.

Fab! Annabel Knight & Dan Laurin (flute/recorder), Anna Paradiso & Robin Bigwood (harpsichord) played some 18th cent delights.
Even my non musical partner was seriously impressed

Haha, Wasn't it fun.

I'm new here, but very much a recorder enthusiast!
Have just ordered my first tenor recorder online - it's this one: http://www.chamberlainmusic.com/ProductDet...ProductID=601TW - I'm looking to get into ensemble playing but not entirely sure how!
Definitely going to try to go to NYRO's easter course if I can - is anyone else involved?

Oooh, good price! A lot of my pals are involved with the committee side of NYRO, and I may well be involved in some way, but I'm far too old and crusty to be on the course. Have fun.

It most certainly was.

I'm eagerly waiting for my Tenor recorder to arrive - can anyone please suggest any repertoire written for tenor in particular?

Can't help you with repertoire but do let us know what it's like - as RoseRodent said it is a good price and I think a safer bet that a bidding war on eBay! While you wait I'm going to continue trying to convince my parents I need more recorders!

Yes of course -it should be here fairly soon!
I'm hoping it's alright, I've got the Yamaha plastic but simulated rosewood descant and treble so I wanted another simulated wood instrument to match
I have to say, recorders have become a bit addictive!

I know! I had a bright green descant for 6 years until I started playing seriously about a month ago. Now I have two descents, a treble and a sopranino!!

I think if we added up the total number of recorders in our SRP group they would outnumber players by about 6 to 1. I have (mental count) 5 descants and want another one, 2 trebles, one tenor, a bass and two sopraninos. I certainly wouldn't make the top ten of recorder ownership in my group, though.

Two grumpy-questions and a statement:

(1) Anybody got any thoughts on buttress finger technique? I find it quite hard to amalgamate two notes at once to play the fingering of this note, together with the lowest finger of the next note. I'm sticking with it since Important and Knowledgeable people say one should understand, and be able to apply it, but my right hand doesn't seem to lose its holes terribly often, so I'm finding this one of the less obviously useful techniques.

(2) Maizie, question about Hotteterre and gazillion of ornament-symbols. I'm curious. The fact the French masters wrote them out in such detail suggests they believed it was necessary in order to ensure people played them correctly. The composers must have believed that an average player was either (a) too amateur to know what to do, or (b) too self-willed to behave themselves without explicit instructions. If (a), how sure are we that the instructions are Instructions that Must be Obeyed, rather than guidance on how to develop good taste (and therefore possibly slightly flexible, dependent on ones good taste)? If (b), whose taste is better, the composer's, or the taste of the player who the composer wished to constrain? Is it allowable, nowadays, to make any concession to modern ears, or is it frowned on to deviate in any way? It's a bit weird, actually; the whole business of the French writing ornaments in detail sort-of goes contrary to their approach to timing, where they seem to have been happy to write approximately, and expect the player to supply inequality to taste. Oh if only someone had invented the tape-recorder...

(3) Tenor repertoire: I assume "der fluyten lust-hof" is already on the list. Personally I really struggle to like descant (sorreeee... might be converted one day, but currently I find it peepy, even in professional hands), so I'd happily nick anything intended for descant and see if it works an octave lower. In fact my attitude to music is that if the tune fits in the instrument's range, and sounds OK, then so far as I'm concerned, it's repertoire. But I know I'm on rather thin ice.

Well, it's a whole minefield, really.
Hotteterre wrote a book on playing the flute (and recorder and oboe). In that he explained all his different 'tremblements' and I think he made it fairly clear that "This is the way I wrote it, this is the way you will play it". He's also fairly certain that you play inegale always for the shortest notes in the piece, unless told otherwise, though I'm not sure if he adressed 'how inegale is inegale?'
Quantz also wrote a book, but I haven't got round to reading that yet to know how prescriptive he was.

To provide extra confusion, some composers used the same symbols as Hotteterre but gave them different meanings The only thing to do is cross your fingers that the preface of the music tells you which definition you are faced with this time...!!

It's the ultimate question really: Would Hotteterre be so hugely chuffed that all these hundreds of years later we are still playing his music, so chuffed that he'd forgive a re-interpretation of the ornamentation? Or, would he simply be livid that we're all idiots who can't read the instructions so shouldn't be allowed to play?!

It's worth noting that with Hotteterre, there do seem to be some rules. I can't name any of them off the top of my head, but my teacher who has been playing French Baroque since before I was born (and that's not an exagerration) can auto-ornament a Hotteterre piece because he just knows that e.g. 'this type of motion in the written music is always followed by a port de voix' or some such...! So it's kind of stylistic/idiomatic as well as ornamenting.


Buttress fingering - don't tend to use it at all. Very occasionally finger 7 will support the recorder but on the wood between holes 7 and 8, i.e. not covering an actual hole. For me with my recorders and my hand position and their weight and all sorts of other individual things - I rarely find it useful. If you don't find it useful, don't worry about it, I'd say.

I remember being put very firmly in my place once for suggesting that composers of the French Baroque were prescriptive in the way they presented their music. Hotteterre is a bit of an extreme example of using lots of symbols and Blavet is an extreme example the other way. Even where there are lots of symbols provided, as an interpreter you're still expected to understand the idiom well-enough to put in your own embellishments in the right places, displaying your understanding and your good taste.

I've just started dipping my toe into French Baroque, but I'm already in love with Hotteterre and Monteclair.

Apart from having lessons with someone who knows, it's also helpful to read around the subject. As well as Hotteterre, Monteclair wrote some good stuff. One of his more helpful comments, I think, is that you'll be spending a lot of time trilling, so you might as well learn to do it properly. Betty Bang Mather's book Interpretation of French Music from 1675 to 1775 is also useful. Quantz wrote more about the Italian style than French, but is still a good read.

Thanks hugely, both, for hints of future reading, and for the extra information. I'd guess the best thing is for beginners like me to be grateful to the very prescriptive composers, read their prefaces and learn to play that way as far as possible, and hope that in the long run we'll start to associate particular motifs with particular treatments. That way we'll be better placed to handle the less annotated works of other composers in a tasteful way.

Maizie, you had me worried when you wrote "The only thing to do is cross your fingers..."

By the way, what proportion of the general public actually knows what a recorder is?? I assumed nearly 100%, because we all had to learn as children, but yet another highly-educated friend today asked me "don't you play some sort of flute?". I try to avoid being too public about practise, but with home being largely unsuitable, I do sneak off to corners of public parks/deserted bus-shelters. So far only one person has correctly accused me of playing a recorder, but looooads call it a flute.

There are two reasons people don't recognise recorders:
1) The one they played at school age was a descant. They may well be completely unaware there are different sizes. So what you are playing can't be a recorder because it doesn't look like the little one they used to play.
2) You are an adult. Only children play recorder. Therefore, you can't be playing a recorder