I know there have been many topics on this before, but this is my first experience of it and it really made me angry.

Last week, I had a lesson and my teacher asked me to stay a bit later as there was a new student turning up who didn't have an instrument and wanted to try out mine. The girl was five and she came with her dad and younger sister. Anyway, it turns out that the girl was extremely and painfully shy and didn't want to learn music at all; it was her father's idea as she was spending too much time on the computer and he wanted her to learn. There was also a misconception that as she was brainy, she should learn- he wasn't brainy so he couldn't learn. Apparently.

So the girl didn't speak for half an hour, but the father answered for her and practically played the violin instead of her. When my teacher asked her to pick up the violin, she shook her head and said she didn't want to. My teacher was really gentle and got her to pick it up and then pick the bow up and try using it on the strings. But then her hard work was RUINED by the father, who repeated EVERYTHING that my teacher said in a pushy, commanding voice. Every time he spoke, the child looked like she was going to have a panic attack, she started shaking and almost burst into tears. When my teacher said, in a jolly voice, "Let's see if we can use the whole bow, shall we?", the father grabbed the child's arm and said "Use the WHOLE bow, like this" and tried to force her. At that point, my teacher told him off (the violin was obviously way too big for her). Then the father had the cheek to say "If you showed her, she'd know what to do, why don't you show her?"

Argh! It's dads like that that ruin a child's love for anything! He obviously loved his daughter, but it was obvious to both my teacher and me that the reason for the little girl being so a) shy and b) panicky was the father's attitude. How is a teacher supposed to teach if you get a parent like that??

Anyway, I just wanted to post my annoyance... *feels better now*

Good grief! Poor girl.

I'd avoid that sort of attitude like the plague, and either insist the father stay out of lessons, or else not speak at all during them. I wonder how long your teacher will stick it for?

I entirely agree. I expect the teacher will get rid of the father. I would. And if that means losing the poor child there's not much one can do because she won't learn to like music anyway under those conditions.

This father sounds horrendous - it also sounds as if the teacher should have been a bit more assertive and gently put the dad in his place; there's no way this interfering dad should have been allowed to grab his daughter's arm in a violin lesson and override the teacher, period! Grrr!

And poor child...

I hope if your teacher takes this child on she's able to somehow get this dad to back off and stop being pushy with the child's music. On reflection, frankly the teacher should probably refuse to teach the child unless she actively wants to learn the violin - it's hard to see any good coming out it.

Well I'd dread to think what will happen if the child doesn't practice the instrument, or even worse when she practices it with the father supervising. *shudders* a nightmare of a parent indeed. No wonder she's so shy. Poor kid.

Most kids and most parents are great, but get a difficult parent and you have problems. Now that I am a fair bit older than the parents of the children whom I teach the problems are less and I am better able to control awkward ones!
I was on the beach a couple of weeks ago and was sitting in the car talking on my phone when a little lad of no more than four years old and his dad came to play football. The dad kept kicking the ball away from the little lad who was getting more and more upset. In the end he said to his father "Dad, it's my ball!" at which point the father went quite mad and shouted that he should be trying harder. The lad began to cry and was told in a rough voice to stop crying and to behave. He did, straight away and looked quite worried. Then he was allowed to play. He did not enjoy it at all from then on but was having to do it. I was on the point of having a word with the dad but decided not to.
Some parents are just plain bossy. It does the kids no good at all and just puts the poor things off things that should be fun.
Parents need to be kept in order at times. I do hope that your teacher manages to sort this one out.

Yes, my dad used to joke about when I got good results and put on an angry face asking why I didn't get 100%, but sometimes parents do this and it's not just joking...

He also used to show off with a football and not let me or my sister get a chance to take the ball off him, but it was the racing about and kicking him in the shins that was the fun part for us It was never once taken as a serious attempt to improve our sporting ability!

My parents listened to me practise, but didn't interrupt or fuss over it. The only time I did exams was when my teacher decided I was ready, not because mum kept pestering her. I'd hate to have had a parent like that.

One of the most irritating habits of parents, when sitting in on lessons, is to try to do things for the kids. As a teacher you have to become fairly comfortable with silence after a question, sometimes a pupil is just thinking carefully, sometimes they didn't understand, but either way it's no use if an adult jumps in to prompt, or even with the answer...

It's all to do with over-identification. I'm not totally sure if it's got that much to do with real love at all, I'm sad to say. It's not necessarily the parent's fault - they probably weren't 'well parented' themselves and so it goes on...

You just have to hope the kids with parents like these somehow hang onto enough character to be able to forge their own identities away from their parents and without too much long-lasting damage.

Couldn't agree more....... a child needs to separate from the parents and build confidence in himself.

Boy, do we see life as music teachers, and seem to possess empathy more than others, being sensitive souls

That's all true. It just makes me sad because bringing up a child is such a difficult thing at the best of times without these sorts of attitudes. Obviously, the parent needs to be firm, but gentleness goes a lot farther with a small kid than forceful pushiness.

Actually, the saddest thing was that the little girl was a complete natural at it and could even sing in tune (unlike me!). If only she could be allowed to develop a love of music naturally, she could be excellent. But with this sort of pushiness from the parents, one can only hope they don't put her off altogether.

Oh goodness, this father sounds really awful. Poor child

The dad sounds like a nightmare, but I wonder how pushy he can be if his 5 year old daughter is already spending "too much time on the computer"? I'll give him 3/10 for at least trying to get her off the PC and into music. Maybe he was having a bad day. Grown-ups do sometimes, don't we? And maybe it had taken him half an hour to drag her, kicking and screaming, away from her computer. And maybe he's just manic. You say he obviously loves his daughter. It wasn't obvious from the content of your message, but I'm sure we all hope that's true!

Your teacher has to teach according to her rules. If she allows such parental interference then she allows it. If she doesn't, then next time she must either tell the father to go away or sit him behind the girl, tell him to sit still and stay quiet. She should not, of course, say this in front of his kids. It's not an exercise in undermining him. It's an exercise in establishing a good working environment. Control of the environment is her responsibility; not yours, not the girl's and not the father's.

If your teacher is going to teach five year olds perhaps she should acquire a small violin for them to try out, rather than relying on your willingness to stay behind and hand over your own inappropriate instrument. I wonder if your teacher might have been aware of what was coming and had you there for moral support. I assume she does, after all, have her own full size violin the girl could have used. (Or am I foolish in expecting a violin teacher to own a violin?)

Best wishes

barry

I thought the same as Barry. If you're 20 1/12 (happy birthday!) then your violin isn't the right size. Surely a violin teacher might have a smaller size violin and bow for such an occasion?

Whilst the father is certainly out of order, if I was the teacher in that situation, I would certainly have said something to him - diplomatically to start with of course.

Yes, to say the least, it was a very unfortunate start. There can be no proper progress until the Dad is ousted from the room permanently so that teacher and young pupil can bond and establish a proper rapport upon which to base the lesson. Before that happens a lot of healing (for the little girl) will have to take place.

LR

I saw this post yesterday and largely agree with everyone else that the parent came across as being a control freak.

I think I'd discourage him from being in lessons on some mutually agreeable basis. As a parent I know how easy it is to give the wrong impression. Like Barry it struck me that he's trying to encourage his daughter in a constructive persuit. Perhaps he's worked out that the child is musical or someones pointed out her singing ability. It seems odd that a bossy parent would force a child intto an area that they know nothing about on the off chance. Most of the parents I know like this push the children into their old hobby or somehting they have an interest in.

The best way forward in this situation would be to maintain communication, without him being in the lesson, trying to build the childs confidence away from him at the same time. None of us really know the events that led up to the lesson or if they have been through emotional problems. sometimes it's better to wait and judge rather than doing it on first impressions.

Whilst the caricature of this particular father is drawn to invite condemnation, I wonder if we are truly in a situation to pass judgement?

That is to say, we all have our own approach to parenting. There are some who have commented herein who I might condemn as "pushy" based on previous postings and experience. If I was uncharitable I might find it ironic that they should offer their comments in this area...

It is as a parent very easy to answer your childrens questions for them. If my mother asks my son Matti the way to the butchers from our house its for him to answer. Given we tend to buy our meat there she already know that my hubby and I know the way to the butchers, and since this is the same butcher's shop she took me to from her parents house, I know she knows the way too.

And thus it is with children in instrumental lessons. A first time pianist needs guidance over the place of middle C. By lesson no.2 I hope when I ask them to identify a group of three black notes together, that they find them straight away, or only require a little prompting.

When Alexander was having violin lessons (something I have to organise again) I initially tried visiting my Aunt to give him some space. Then he wanted me in the lessons. I'd join in singing the rhymes, but I wouldn't interfere with the violin - that was her job. It didn't work out as Alexander wasn't ready, but he's asked about his violin several times recently and is taking to the piano well, so maybe it is time to try again.

I might push to encourage practising at home, but the lesson is the teachers domain. I deliberately bring a book with me. I'd rather sit in an adjacent room. I don't like being confined to the car - especially during winter.

Its a case of knowing how much carrot and how much stick your own children need. It sounds like this father hasn't identified his daughter's needs. It's easy to get wrong. However if he'd been like that in a piano lesson at my house, he'd be confined to the sitting room!

As for too much computer - Its a battle in our house too. My hubby has written an auto-logout programme to give both boys a fixed limit. Personally I'm a little freer. However they are happily doing Artwork on our dining room table at present and I'm sitting in the same room.

I might even do a jigsaw with them later!

It's a fine line between encouraging and pushing. I'm sure I cross the line at times, but they're happy contented boys on the whole. You know at first I though Barry was pushy, but every picture I've seen of Lawrence shows a happy well-adjusted teenager who enjoys his music. It is easy to see the parents of talented kids as pushy when infact the motivation comes from the child.

However this does not appear to be the case here.

Now, now, unless you are going to be specific, we are left to guess who you are referring to. The above quoted post is of no validity as it leaves us all wondering: "Am I the pushy one he's referring to?" Perhaps a personal message to the person(s) you are aiming at would be a better way of communicating in this case. I chose to publish this post for all to see as I think I'm speaking for more than just myself here.

Regarding the issue of the inferred "caricaturing" of the father, well, that's all we have to go on - the allegation given by the original poster.

LR

I don't think we're ever really in a position to pass judgement in this type of situation! There are so many factors at play. Maybe the mum was the one who wanted the child to have lessons and it was left to the unwilling dad to do the dirty work. Maybe he was agitated by being watched, frustrated by the fact that his daughter won't respond to the teacher without him having to butt in. Maybe he had a hangover and is usually a great dad! Or maybe he's really just a control freak after all...

But the answer is definitely for the teacher to get rid of him in future lessons, whatever the reasons for his behaviour. It needs to be ascertained whether the child will gain anything from the lessons herself, or whether she has been forced into something against her will that could put her off for life; she's very young, after all. A parent who doesn't know how to behave is quite common in private teaching, and it's up to the teacher to take the lead and deal with it, otherwise all concerned will come to dread lessons.

It's not so much a case of passing judgement, but it's best for teacher to determine the type of behaviour they will or won't tolerate during a lesson.

If I was presented with a similar situation I'd be looking to make sure it didn't happen again by having a quiet word with the parent and insisting that he doesn't sit in on the lesson in future. I wouldn't be particularly interested in why he behaved the way he did, only that it's not acceptable. The only concern would be enabling effective lessons, or possibly the discontinuation of lessons if there was any further aggravation.

Very well put, Dulciana! (As always)

The original post was not a caricature, that was what happened. And I was not judging the father (or trying not to anyway!), merely pointing out that his way of dealing with the situation was inappropriate to the little girl's reactions at the time.

When I said he obviously loved his daughter, it came across that he genuinely thought that pushiness and forcefulness was the way to deal with someone, not that he was being mean on purpose.
I guess there could be circumstances that I/we didn't know about, but to be fair, you could say that about any situation and that would mean no one could ever pass comment on anything.

And to clear up the violin issue: my teacher does have a violin but I'm borrowing it while I save up for my own one. She is primarily a viola player, which instrument would obviously be even larger. As far as I know, only one five year old girl is on the cards at the moment, so a tiny violin wouldn't be a sound investment.

I apologise if anyone thinks I was inviting unfair condemnation, but I don't think behaviour of that sort is helpful in anyone, and it makes it fair worse if you're a parent with a frightened little girl.

No need to apologise. Well said!!

LR

I completely agree with this- the scenario I was talking about was in the lesson. I wasn't interested in inviting a discussion on parenting at home. Sorry if it came across that way.

No it didn't at all! I'm pretty sure if I'd witnessed that scene I'd have been straight onto the forum with a thread entitled "Eeeek!"

People are bound to refer to their own experiences as a comparison when a discussion like this comes up, and everyone has their own idea of what is reasonable behaviour. It's only natural that many people would criticise this parent's manner, but that doesn't mean you were inviting condemnation, so don't worry.

Ok, thanks ad_libitum and Lone Ranger...

Yes, let's remind ourselves that this is a music teacher's website - NOT one for frustrated amateur psychologists.

LR

But sure that's part of the fun!

As a parent I'm always trying to be on the right side of the very fine line between pushy and supportive. I hope my kids (if no-one else) have the conficence to tell me if I get it wrong. As a teacher (of chess) I recognise the scenario well. It is very hard to deal with, and attempting to do so almost invariably leads to the child not coming again.

Nonetheless: in my chess club, I teach and the children are the pupils. The parents (or at least a parent, somewhere) are encouraged to be present, to protect my interests, but not to take part. I make this clear at the outset, and ruthlessly reinforce it if neccesary: If I ask a child a question he or she is on his or her own until answered. If someone else answers for them (parent or wrong child) I quietly say something along the lines of "Now then, with you answering for her (or him), what did she (or he) learn? Please don't." Then I turn back to the original child and say, "now, this time on your own" and ask them another, usually very easy, question. It seems to work.

I am sure that we do understand this but it is a part of our job as teachers to do the best that we can for our pupils. Sometimes this involves sorting out difficult situations and dealing with awkward parents. I am quite sure that, as a school teacher, you will have come across your fair share of these. There is not one correct way to teach or to deal with pupils. We should be helping them gently on their way to learning to play and to enjoy their music making. If this involves understanding how different personalities learn and finding the best way to teach them all as individuals them all well and good.

I can't argue with any of the above; it's all very true. I suppose earlier on I was becoming a bit tetchy with those who were trying to make excuses for the father who was actually interfering with the smooth running of the lesson. He was after all - consciously or unwittingly - causing stress to three people: the teacher; the other older girl whose violin was being borrowed (i.e. the actual poster ?) and most of all his own daughter. Apologies if I overreacted though in that comment about the psychologists. It might have been more delicately phrased.

LR

I answered as a teacher and parent.

Whenever I see a question like this it makes me question my own interraction with my own children. Personally I'm prickly about this due to the bad parenting I gave when recoverring from PND.

I'm sure this father cares, he's just misguided. As a teacher if I came across a parent like that, a diplomatic conversation would be inorder, but I would have to admit, I get it wrong too. My suggestion would be he sits in an adjacent room or brings a book, or both!

Absolutely: As I said, there is a fine line between pushy and supportive, but both are a mile from not caring.