Can anyone explain to me why the AB always make it so that you have to buy an entire book of pieces just to get one of the alternative exam pieces? I'm finding it increasingly frustrating when a pupil is completely uninspired by, for instance, the whole 'C' section, so off you go and buy one of the listed books for them to try another, only to find out it's even worse.
I can't understand why they don't have a section on their site like musicroom.com where you could peruse the alternative pieces and then pick, buy and download whichever piece you wanted. They still wouldn't be losing out on money, and I think parents would be more keen to cough up, say £2.50, for one piece that will be used, rather than £7 or £8 for a whole book that wont.
Am I being a grumpy old woman or does anyone else feel this way?
(By the way, can anyone recommend one of the alternative 'B' pieces for G2 piano, current syllabus. The pupil is 10, male, sensitive, only likes classical music and doesn't cope well with broken chord/alberti bass style pieces or radical contemporary stuff.)

I certainly do!! It's so annoying to have to buy extra books. But I'm an official grumpy old woman anyway!

I can't get them to buy the books! It's me who ends up with them. I don't want all the pieces in the exam book together. Would just like to buy the alternative pieces individually, rather than within a compilation.

One of mine is doing the Kabalevsky piece for the B list at Grade 2. I'm sure your pupil as you described him would enjoy it.

If my pupils need new books it is not a matter of choice for them to buy them. I write the details down in their note book, ask the parents and they do the ordering by telephone. The books are there for the following lesson in almost all cases. Books are always useful for pupils to learn additional pieces of the same standard as their exam work and for sight reading as Noodle has said. In my opinion the more books of pieces that a student has the better. Nothing is worse than seeing a pupil stuck on three exam pieces for several months with nothing else to play.

I'm sure most people who want to learn are fully aware of the cost. However that does not always mean that they have funds readily available to throw at the nearest music shop.

I think the biggest problem is not knowing whether you even like the alternative pieces until you've bought the books. At least if there was somewhere you could look at them and decide - it's not as if you can steal them as you still need the real copy for the exam. Many online music sales have at least the first page to print out with SAMPLE written across. I think that would be great.

Thats what I've been trying to get at. I had a G3 pupil who ended up buying 2 books for the alternative 'C' pieces this last exam session, as the first one was really awful. She couldn't get to a music shop to check it out beforehand so had to buy it blind online. Many of the music shops up here have to order the books in for you, so you feel under obligation to take them. The worst thing was that the first book is just far out wierd and totally not her thing, so even though she is an avid player who picks up and plays anything she can get her hands on, I know that this one will never see the light of day again.

Susiejean

One of things I do is buy the CDs for Grades 1-3 piano exams and let my students listen to the alternative pieces (which feature on them) if they want to explore other choices. That does minimise the chances of making horrible mistakes a little.

I also try to visit any music stores (locally or elsewhere if I'm in another town) and browse what's around so I've had sight of same. It's time demanding but, again, usually worthwhile.

I'm with dcmbarton on the buying of music bit. I get music for my pupils and I bill the parents and they know they have to pay. I make that clear from the start - they cannot learn and progress on the piano by just buying a different ABRSM piano book a year. Sure, I try to be sensible about this and prudent in my recommendations but I expect it from them.

Incidentally, try teaching the oboe if you think pianists have it hard. No ABRSM books for us - we have to choose pieces and buy every List separately in a different book - so three books for each grade. Now that does require finance and dedication! A student taking even three or four exams on their oboe ends up, sometimes, with up to 12 different books though, of course (especially for the "study", List C piece) some volumes overlap the grades. However, it does mean, in general, oboists have a rich diet of music - no chance of getting stuck on just exam books here.

Finally, I'd agree about the Kabalevsky in List B Grade 2 as a pleasant alternative piece.

Good Luck to you and your pupils.

Thanks for that. I don't mind so much buying books for B list pieces as they tend to be nicer. It always worries me for C list though as they tend to get more radical and bizarre as they grades get higher. Believe it or not I have had pupils in the past who were with me for a couple of years who only ever bought the exam book and relied on me completely for any other material. It frustrates me immensly that not only are they reluctant to get their a**e in to gear and buy a couple of books, but that they don't even experiment beyond the work I set them. As soon as I had finished practicing the pieces set by my teacher I was tinkling my way through a show tune book, a blues hanon book or a classical piece in contrasting style to what I was working on.
Oh dear, grumpy old woman syndrom again. Time to sit down with a glass of wine and watch Still Game I think!
By the way, has anyone ever looked through the emoticons and like me wondered what significance the penguin has?! (This is probably the first time it's made it on to a thread!)

I agree with Scaramouche. Music education is becoming increasingly unavailable to children from a certain financial level of society. It is all very well to say those wanting to learn should understand about costs. Try telling that to a nine year old whose parents have genuine difficulty in financing their musical activities.

Incorrect. One would buy some tennis balls, but not a whole shop full of them.

Hi Susiejean

I see exactly where you are coming from about the difficulty finding the alternatives and there may be similar problems with flute and clarinet with the new books. It is one reason I try to minimise use of the exams and ask people to buy music most appropriate to them, though that doesn't really answer your question.

I have long thought we should be able to buy individual pieces from larger volumes (actually I'm sure I have in the past, but had to order them in and maybe not all volumes would offer this). In reality you will rarely find a whole book of which the majority of pieces are perfect for one individual pupil. The pieces in the book are often quite dull, and frankly I think a few publishers cash in on our must-do-ABRSM-exams syndrome, prevelant in many places.

I also see your point about refusing to buy other music. Many times I have told people to get this, that, and they take weeks or just don't. I'm not talking genuinely poor people here, just people who clearly don't want to prioritise music too highly. I am realistic about what I expect people to buy, and lend things whenever possible.

The best way around exams with many dull pieces I can think is to take the pupil to or beyond the level using more useful repertoire and then spend only a few months on the pieces for the exam. That way they have less time to get bored of them and more time on things they find more useful.

That is certainly true! I know people have differing financial circumstances but I can't understand why parents opt to let their children have music lessons and are then not to prepared to but the books to facilitate those lessons.

[/quote]
So presumably, if they suddenly decided they wanted to learn to play tennis, you'd buy the tennis balls but not the racket?

David
[/quote]


The same constraints would occur . What applies to music applies to many other activities including tennis!

What really counts is our attitude. If we just think it's too bad that some people can't afford to do music we risk engendering the attitude that music is only for the rich and it then becomes a snob thing. I just think we need to be careful not to give the impression that we don't care.

Some years ago an adult pupil of mine was obliged to give up lessons for financial reasons and she said, stoically "You can't have what you can't pay for it That, of course is true but it isn't nice to have
one's musical education thwarted for lack of funds as I know that from personal experience.

To come back to alternative pieces in separate books, I agree that it would be nice to be able to preview or download specimens and not only for reasons of expense. Those of us teaching abroad can't go into the nearest music shop and browse. My nearest music shop is over a hundred kilometres round trip and in term time is closed on the one day I don't work. In any case they have never heard of ABRSM publications and certainly wouldn't order them for me.

Here here! I enjoy looking at the alternatives and wouldn't dream of asking a parent to buy a book unless their child had heard and knew he liked the piece!

I haven't read anywhere that exam music is the only music seen as essential. Just because this thread is referring to exam pieces does not mean that the pupils in question have only ever bought exam music - they may well have bought an awful lot of other repertoire to play. Music may not be expensive to you, but everyone is in a different situation, and for a family trying to support their child(ren) in music, buying instruments, paying for lessons, buying lots of music, it does add up. Whilst, no, a single piece of sheet music may not be that expensive, when coupled with a few other books or bits and pieces here and there it becomes more expensive, and becomes more of an issue for people who are not that well off. I find it quite rude that you seem to show no care whatsoever for those who are not as fortunate as others. It seems you think that such people should not even attempt to give their child a chance, purely on the basis of they may possibly not be able to afford everything. Utterly ridiculous and I find this view quite insulting, especially given that many of the pupils I teach are not from well off families and do struggle with money.

I find the CDs extremely useful. Usually, there's just one list that causes a problem with any one pupil, and they'll get the other book quite happily.

Of course, one on my girls last year, having listened to the CD decided she disliked all the pieces from the speciment book and picked all alternatives, meaning 3 seperate books costing something in the region of 19 pounds total. Besides scale and sight reading books....But she's an only child of two well-paid parents to whom this wasn't a problem. (Bought her a digital piano last year!)

It's not so easy when you have a child who is one of five, and only one parent working...

[quote name='Alder' date='Jul 27 2007, 11:13 AM' post='559940']
[quote name='oboist' post='559724' date='Jul 26 2007, 08:29 PM']

Of course, one on my girls last year, having listened to the CD decided she disliked all the pieces from the speciment book and picked all alternatives, meaning 3 seperate books costing something in the region of 19 pounds total. Besides scale and sight reading books....But she's an only child of two well-paid parents to whom this wasn't a problem. (Bought her a digital piano last year!)
[/quote]

Are you saying that your pupils buy their own scales and sight reading books?

they have to buy their own scale books. If you have 4 people doing G1 you can't have them share a book, but I sometimes write scales out instead, especially if they have grasped the pattern quickly and only need to know about sharps and flats. I always buy the aural and sightreading books, but encourage them to practice these 2 disciplines from other sources. That way they aren't learning the answers or tests beforehand.

Not all instruments have books with a set of exams pieces in them. Look at it this way the parent might be lucky and only have to buy the exam book or the exam book and 1 other book. If their child plays a different instrument they might have to buy 3 or 4 books to find 3 pieces their child likes.

There isn't a set book for Grade 3 Oboe. I tend to suggest my pupil gets anthologies that we can use for repertoire too. For some of the other pieces I've still got my old copies and lend them out. I was very grateful to my oboe teacher who did the same.

The oboe is an expensive instrument. Reeds are not cheap, the instruments are not cheap and then instead of getting one book for exams you have to get three or four.

For my singers, yes there are the "singing time" books that cover a fair selection of their exam material, but my poor piano groans under all the volumes of singing music I now own. For my exam candidates they get what they need. Again I try to advise the most cost effective way of purchasing music. They're already shelling out for lessons and exam fees after all. It is also why my exam candidates only pay for me to get to their exams and back rather than for my time on the day. That way I can still afford to run my car, but its not costing the earth.

I don't want music to become an elitist subject that only the rich can study. However I cannot afford to be a charity. Its a real dillemma.

Yes, it is a dilemma. I do buy extra books and this does indeed build up one’s own library. And I don’t only teach piano so there are the recorder and flute lists to consider as well. Even if we set aside the problem for parents who find it difficult to buy everything, there remains the problem of the teacher who has to buy everything. I have bought quite a lot of music because it was on the exam syllabuses only to find it wasn’t suitable for the pupils concerned – and quite a lot of it simply hasn’t been used.

No one expects to run a business without having to make some investment. What I find discouraging in having to make the investment blind. As I have already said, I would like to be able to see what I am buying so that I don’t waste money.

Of course you can argue, as David said, that you just go without and only buy the piano exam books.
That helps to solve the financial problem but not the musical one. I actually like the wide choice of exam pieces now on offer and it is true that once you have the albums, pieces from them are sometimes set in subsequent years. However the 2007/ 8 has a lot of alternative books I don’t possess and I simply couldn’t afford to buy any more music this year. So my pupils’ choice was narrower than last year.

The idea of buying the CD’s is helpful and I have used it to narrow down choices but it would still be nice if there were some way of seeing the music as well.

Um....yes

When I was learning my teacher didn't even let me know scale books existed until grade 8 and as a result (or so I've always felt) my scales were terribly weak. Nothing to refer back to but a few scales scrawled in the back of my notebook...
As for sight reading, I have a few specimen test books that I lend out in the run up to exams, but the tutor books they buy themselves.

[Can't get this next bit to quote properly, but Aquarelle said : I have bought quite a lot of music because it was on the exam syllabuses only to find it wasn’t suitable for the pupils concerned – and quite a lot of it simply hasn’t been used.]

I found that with my pupil last year. I spent £7 on a book that we used one exam tune from and I hate the rest of the book. Other exam pieces have turned up from it, but only the sort that has pupils making a face and shaking their heads!

It's interesting to hear how people feel about students having to buy books. I do agree with David in that anyone taking up an instrument should be made aware of the costs involved.

I don't think music excludes those less well off. We never had much money but when my parents sent me to piano, they knew I would need whatever books I was told to get. It's worth looking around in second hand book shops and charity shops as the vast majority of my books were used, but it didn't matter - I'm still re-using them now!

Lots of my pupils are friendly with each other and are happy to let others borrow books for a while so the music gets shared out. I just keep a note of who's is who as I think whoever paid for the book should have it back, so they don't end up buying music for everyone else.

As for alternative pieces, the online preview isn't a bad idea, but as others have said, if someone buys a book for an alternative piece, I wouldn't let it go to waste by only playing the one piece from it, and it's nice to have more repertoire!

I find that pieces that appeal at the first hearing are not always ones that will maintain a pupil's interest for long. Often pieces that are more challenging to listen to and to learn and perform will become favourites before long. I tend to tell my students what to play and when they have a few exam ones learnt then I let them make their choices. I have one piano pupil who would play nothing but classical sonatinas if she had the choice. Books tend to be well edited and will contain pieces that will be useful teaching material and may well become favourites soon enough. Pupils have to step outside of their comfort zone and learn things that may not be of their choosing. It is what professional players and singers do all the time.

The "Little Song" is a lovely piece, and there's plenty more in Op27 that can be enjoyed as your pupil progresses, so the investment would be well worth it in this case. Enjoy!

[quote name='Alder' date='Jul 27 2007, 09:57 PM' post='560311']
[quote name='jenny' post='559949' date='Jul 27 2007, 12:05 PM']

Are you saying that your pupils buy their own scales and sight reading books?
[/quote]

Um....yes

When I was learning my teacher didn't even let me know scale books existed until grade 8 and as a result (or so I've always felt) my scales were terribly weak. Nothing to refer back to but a few scales scrawled in the back of my notebook...
As for sight reading, I have a few specimen test books that I lend out in the run up to exams, but the tutor books they buy themselves.

[quote]

I like my students to learn scales as soon as possible from memory, so I keep one scale book for each grade and make copies of the scales to start them off. I've never thought that they needed to have a book of their own - although I don't have any students at the moment higher than Grade 5...

As for sight reading, like you I lend out old test books before exams. What do you mean by tutor books?

A couple of years ago I was trying to find an more effective way of teaching sight-reading and found Paul Harris' Improve Your Sight Reading series. Each book has 7/8 stages, which cover anything new for that grade - more complex rhythms, key signatures, time signatures. I find them particularly useful from grade 4 on, as you can get time and key signatures in the sight reading (5/8 for example) that you might have little experience of in the general way of things.
I did grades 4 and 5 without even getting the specimen test books to use. I suppose my teacher must have assumed I was playing enough by myself to get along without them, but I can't help wondering how my marks would have been if I'd got the proper practice...

Yep!

Pianists and violinists have had it relatively easy regarding exam music for years... flute and clarinet soon join the posse. It isn't always a good thing though, as oboist points out there can be benefits to not having an exam book.


That's two exceedingly large assumptions, though; for some families, music is very expensive, and many people don't have access to a good music shop, or even a music shop at all. To use your own analogy, some children wanting to learn tennis will make do with a second hand racket, three tennis balls, and lessons in school.

Most people are prepared to spend hundreds on designer trainers??! Well you must move in more exalted circles than I do.... most people I know wouldn't dream of doing so, for themselves or their children, and most I dare say couldn't afford it even if it occurred to them that it was a good idea. If you have students who baulk at a £8 book but spend £100s on designer trainers... more fool them. I'm talking about people for whom sheet music is genuinely an expense that they have to weigh against other outgoings... For such students, making sure books will get as much use as possible and if appropriate seeking out second hand copies etc is very helpful.

...and I don't know what relation it has to people who do not have access to a music shop that contains specialised music which many don't - teachers included

Is David just being provocative to make us think round the subject or does he really believe what he says ? I don’t know.

All I do know is that music, along with many other worthwhile activities for children, is very expensive for some families ( and some teachers). Therefore it would seem that any means of decreasing the expense would be helpful for those who would like to take advantage of it; (On line copies etc.)

I have one pupil for whose family money is no object. They are extremely comfortably off. They are pleasant and do not flaunt their financial ease. But it is quite obvious from the way they talk that they have absolutely no idea how the other half live. They make assumptions that do not apply to the majority of my pupils and would not have applied to me.

At one point my parents, having suffered one of life’s accidents, couldn’t afford to continue my piano lessons. I got myself a Saturday job to pay for them. That wasn’t sufficient but I was fortunate enough to have a piano teacher who often needed a babysitter and she “paid” me in lessons. The children I teach have no opportunity to earn as I did. Even so, my best friend, whose parents could pay for lessons, spent Saturday practising while I served in Boots the Chemist. There was an inevitable difference in our respective achievements.

I’m not complaining or whining about inequalities because they have always and will always exist. all I am saying is that, as teachers, we should be alert to them and do our best to keep as many doors open as possible for all our pupils.

There's one local charity book shop I keep an eye on. A few months ago I got the ABRSM autograph editions of Chopin Nocturnes, Waltzes and Preludes, Bach Well-tempered Clavier Part 1, Clementi Sonatinas and two books of Schubert Impromptus. The quality ranged from excellent - the Nocturnes - to well-worn - the Bach - and they all (I think) cost me £2.50 each. But great though that was for me, I'm pretty sure some poor pianist must have died...

That's the major difference between buying music second-hand and books second-hand - musicians rarely seem to get rid of music voluntarily.

There has been no deliberate intention on my part to misinterpret what you have said – though I may, of course have misunderstood it.

Sorry to hear about your pupil being laid off work – I’m sure most teachers would react with the same generosity as you and I’m sure the pupil appreciates it.

I suspect my experience has been very different from yours. I certainly can’t say that the majority of people I have come across have been more than able to pay for their musical activities. Some have not found it at all difficult, some have found it quite a stretch and a fair number have had to make a lot of sacrifices. A lot of course depends on how willing to sacrifice things other than music the pupils and their families are. A friend of mine took out a hefty loan to finance her children’s high level musical education. At the other end of the scale I have had children on free school meals who had difficulty in affording a cheap plastic recorder. It varies a lot.

However, I think you are right in pointing out to prospective pupils that musical education can be expensive. It’s only fair to warn them, and as you say, we are not charities.

I was interested by your remark that pupils have fewer purchases than when you were a student. Again, that hasn’t been my experience. I survived on a few books and records and a series of second hand rather lousy pianos. It depends on the instrument and the level you want to go to but nowadays, in any learning field, you need many more resources than just that.

We’ve come a long way from the alternative pieces discussion !

Me neither. The statement that "most people are prepared to go out and buy designer trainers for hundreds of pounds" simply is not remotely true of 99% of the people I know and the people I teach; I know many many more people for whom music is genuinely expensive.


Same here - I have had relatively few students, but only one whose family has been in the "more than able" category (and actually, they are not at all stingy when it comes to paying for or buying books as the teacher sees fit - it's been quite a novel experience for me!), and friends/contemporaries who play are almost all somewhere between able to buy books with small sacrifices along to able to buy only very few new books even with sacrifices being made. Thinking back to school, the situation was much the same - yes, there are a few families who are in a position to spend as much as they wish on books and instruments, but they are and were the minority.

As I said, I can't off the top of my head think of anyone I know who would spend hundreds of pounds on designer clothes, and very few who could even if they wanted to. Most of the people I know who have lessons do so by cutting back on other expenses because those lessons/books are important enough to make sacrifices for. They are certainly mostly not in the category of being stingy about books and then wasting the money on fripperies - if they have to think carefully about buying new music books it is because their finances are not always as easy as they could be.

I agree with David.

When I buy any music books, I consider it a long term investment. I still play from books that I bought more than 15 years ago. I remember buying the complete Rachmaninov Preludes for Piano (at today's 'cost equivalent' of GBP 42) with my pocket money (saved over a period of time) - a lot of money for a secondary school pupil - and still use it to this day.

I am a 'completist', i.e. I like to buy complete editions of preludes, waltzes, sonatas etc. rather than buying the odd piece separately, because if I hear a Beethoven sonata being played or discussed, I know that I can easily get the Beethoven Sonata book out and look at it and not worry about whether I have that particular sonata or not. Also, the sonatas encompass a broad range of skill, from grade to diploma, and the book will remain relevant as one progresses up the grades to diploma level.

FC: yes, books are a long term investment, and I too love complete editions of sonatas etc. This makes no difference to some families who struggle to find the money to invest.

I have mentioned (as has Aquarelle), several ways that I get around the expense of music - both for others and for myself - to list all the ideas I can think of that I have used in the past:
* choosing books which have a lot that is usable;
* looking for books on eBay; looking for books 2nd hand or in charity shops;
* using online services (the obvious one is schubertline, which is 100% legal and very very reasonably priced - only for vocals... but some of those pieces work beautifully as instrumental works e.g. the Schubert Ave Maria sounds gorgeous on the flute and would make a lovely study in creating a singing tone and beautiful phrasing);
* loaning books where appropriate and possible;
* using unused items in earlier books for sight-reading etc.
* avoiding exams or only doing one or two, as exam repertoire can be an extra expense on top of normal stuff - not to mention the fees, which are a lot to some people;
* composing or arranging music oneself (this last could be very useful in lieu of scale books, or for extra sight-reading, for example).

All these things can help to make music more affordable for students. What I do the most, again, for myself as well as for others, is trawling eBay (not as arduous as it sounds - one can save a search and get emailed for 6 months when, for example, "Hummel Sonata flute" comes up in a listing - I have bagged several bargains that way) & second hand shops, loaning music, and aiming to recommend books which will be well used.

There isn't really a solution to the buying without trying issue for most, if a music shop isn't within reach, except for returning something that is not appropriate, but it's an honest problem for some (myself included!) who simply can't get to music shops often if at all, and for whom "go and have a look and choose the one that takes your fancy" isn't a realistic option.

Is this all 100% satisfactory? Probably not - wouldn't we all like all of our students to have lovely new editions of all the books we would like them to study music from. But in the real world, there are plenty who truly cannot afford that. Heck, I can't afford brand new editions of every piece I use for myself or for students... much as I'd love to. A good proportion of my music is 2nd hand, and there's much that I wouldn't own had I not found it 2nd hand at a much lower price. I'm sure some people claim not to be able to afford things when they can really, but there are morefor whom it is genuinely an expense and a sacrifice than otherwise among my acquaintance.

Yes, buying music is an expense one should expect to incur if one wants to learn an instrument! But that doesn't mean we can't make things less painful for those who genuinely struggle.

My point is that for those who struggle to find the money, one needs to plan and save for such expenses over a period of time and think of it as an investment. Of course it will be a huge expense if you are suddenly faced with such a purchase and have not prepared for it.

Thus, if you want your child to have music lessons, you will have to factor in lesson fees, music books, theory books, exam pieces, past theory papers, miscellaneous books, transport to and from lessons, cassettes/CDs, musical instrument purchase, repairs, tuning, insurance, unexpected expenses etc. If you can meet the cost, then good. If you think you will have difficulties, then you need to think of ways around it (you have already given some good suggestions already, Sarah) or do without. If both parents and teacher are aware of and honest about the situation, solutions can be found. There are a lot of resources available in this country compared to most.

True

I don’t think there is a solution. Life has always been unfair and no political or social ideology can ever sort that one out. Either you can afford to buy what you need or you can’t. If you can you get it, if you can't you go without.

There are innumerable combinations of circumstances that can make it possible or impossible for someone to do something they want to do. There are solutions – saving pocket money, getting a “student” job, going to second hand book shops (I’d be glad to have any music shop within a feasible distance), settling to buy and learn the recorder ( 8 euros) instead of the flute (several hundred euros).

The thing that has irked me a little in this discussion is the idea (unless I have misunderstood) that
some people seem to refuse to believe that although they may have been fortunate enough to find solutions, not everybody can. I think all the suggestions about how one can reduce expense are helpful but if I have detected a sort of “If I can do it so can you” attitude then I am saddened. Perhaps I am wrong, perhaps this was never the point intended.

It just reminded me a bit of a friend who said he couldn’t for the life of him understand why everyone couldn’t be like him and build their own house. He had forgotten that not everyone is a builder.

Of course - who has said not? Even second hand books cost money! But these are good ways of reducing those costs to more manageable proportions. Some of them won't be appropriate to you and your pupils, some will. Pick those that help, ignore those that don't. You asked what people felt the solution was - I don't think there is a solution, but some ideas to help the situation seemed appropriate.


Or... you could buy a 60 day subscription for £9.95, & print off whatever one needed of the Messiah, Mozart's Exultate Jubilate, a bunch of Schubert Lieder, some more Handel, some Purcell,... lots of things, in fact, many of which appear on exam syllabi. However, I would recommend anyone looking for The Messiah to check out eBay, as it pretty frequently comes up on there 2nd hand at decent prices - that is where I got mine, and it cost me a good deal less than £9 even including postage. & there's nothing to stop anyone recommending a browse on eBay to older students or younger students' parents - no pain at all for the teacher, and potential gain in terms of available repertoire for both parties.

Buying a whole book is only useful if one is able to use enough of it to be worthwhile. Often, it is - sometimes it isn't. This is the situation where schubertline and similar services can be incredibly useful.


Fair enough, that's your prerogative. Personally I prefer to use exams sparingly anyway.


If a piece or a set of scales is arranged once, there is no limit to how many copies one can make of one's own arrangement - something I frequently do.


Fair enough. My view is that I will do all I can to extend that opportunity to as many pupils as possible, and there are many ways of doing so without leaving oneself out of pocket. If a student doesn't have masses of money, or indeed even if they do, such things can be beneficial for both student and teacher.

I recently got a bunch of second hand music, partly for me, partly for my G3 flute student, and also have got her a new book. Recently her dad has paid out £15 to reimburse me for music she is using. They are a well off and generous family, and I could have asked them to spend that much on 2 books brand new, easily, I am sure. But as it is for that £15 we have 1 new book and 4 or 5 other books - some suitable for learning, some for sight-reading... both she will benefit hugely from having such a range of music at her disposal. That money has gone a whole lot further than it otherwise would have done, the effort on my part was slender, and I benefit as well as her because I don't have to stick within the narrow confines of one or two books.

There is no perfect solution, but avoiding everything having to be bought new can considerably widen the material one can use, and it brings learning within the reach of more people. No one will do everything, some people will be able to do very few things, some will have time and transport to be able to do lots, but surely whatever we can do to make things more accessible is good.

It does make me cross when people say "oh but it's not expensive compared to..." - for some people, it is their one expense and needs to be budgeted for. It's not a guilt trip, it's a fact of life. If steps can be taken, many of them not requiring heaps of time and effort, to help out those who need it, (or indeed, to give them the information as to where they can save money themselves) then more people can afford to have lessons and have music be part of their lives. That is surely a good thing??


Me too I know not everyone has access to 2nd hand shops (or even first hand shops! ). I don't either. eBay is however very useful and is my main source of 2nd hand material.

I would agree that people should not be expected to feel guilty about the fact that they have more than others - just as those who have less should not be expected to feel inferior. I think what is important is not what we materialy possess - be it a lot or a little , but what we are.

Oh dear - in writing that sounds a bit pompous - but I don't mean it to be. I had better go and do something down to earth before I get too carried away!!

Who's suggesting you or anyone should run a charity? I think there are good ways to get more music for less money and I consider it worthwhile. Some don't... I guess that's each individual's choice to make; my intention has not been to guilt trip anyone but to suggest some easy ways of saving some money. That's probably more important to some than others. None of these may be appropriate for you in your opinion - fair enough. May well have given someone reading an idea they'd not thought of before, if so then brilliant.

I have to say, don't see how suggesting students get music second hand, or buying online rather than a whole book if appropriate, to save money, is running a charity - it's just using one's noggin and encouraging students to do the same. One doesn't have to do all this for one's students - older students can browse eBay or second hand shops for themselves, or schubertline or... whatever. If they know what is available then they can make the decision. Personally, I get music 2nd hand/online/off eBay because it means I can afford more of it. I know others who regularly do the same. I'm sure some people would rather have brand new all the time, good for them if they can afford to do so. But why not give one's students the information to enable them to save money, if it is appropriate for them and will help. If a student is able to afford more music, then teacher and student alike benefit in the long run.

I don't subsidise my students - I can't afford to - but helping them get more music for less money benefits me too. You could practically call it selfish on my part; who wants to have a student learning from 2 books when for the same money they could have half a dozen! Some may consider it more effort than it's worth, fair enough. Personally I don't put a great deal of effort in - I don't have shops that I can easily get to, anyway... eBay does most of the searching for me... - and I then reap the benefits in my teaching.

Good for you Sarah. Nearly everything I get is brand new because a) I prefer it, and b) haven't got to grips with ebay. I must lack the art of cheap music buying. I could have x times as much music as I own at present.

That being said, I am realistic what I expect people to buy whatever their circumstances are. Ususally no more than £20-£30 a year, which compared with what they already pay for lessons every week is not too heafty. And don't get me started on exam fees.

You should try it Neil! I got a big bundle of piano music for about £2which will always come in handy for sight reading, plus spare copies of tutor books for 50p. It's addictive though so watch out

I think the term charity was first mentioned by me. I try to make sure things are as cost-effective as possible. I've had students pass on their Red Classics to Moderns book when they move onto the Green one, and although everyone buys their own scale books, I tend to keep the sight-reading in myself and lend it out.

As for Schubertline, I buy an annual subscription and just print out the things I need. I've made a net saving (including printing costs) each year. I actually give my pupils music from my subscription, just as I give the practice CDs that I've burnt at home.

If I can minimise costs legally, then I'll do it. I remember as a music student I hardly spent any money on music and was rather grateful we had a well stocked library. Yes that is the other option, borrow the books from the local library.

However I really feel for people on limited budgets and try to make things easy for them financially whilst not being out of pocket either. My income is appreciated by my family, teaching is my income.

I prefer new music too - it's so pretty... - but financially it isn't always viable


So true!


Good one!

I just remembered something I meant to mention about schubertline, which, to me at least, is a huge selling point: for anyone, the ability to print out in the key of one's choosing, and especially for subscribers, as many times as one chooses. Immensely helpful. Especially to nutters like me who can sing high notes much more happily if they are reading from a score which says this F is actually a D or something

Unfortunately it doesn't like Firefox but having to open IE to save lots of money... well, I'll live!

.... off subject, Sarah, but you can get an extension for Firefox that will open IE-only pages in an IE window within Firefox. I think it's called IE Tab - look in 'Extensions' or 'Add-ons' on the Firefox website (get there via the drop-down menu under 'Tools' in Firefox).

Back on-subject, what does annoy me is the way, in the AB trumpet syllabus (we've got no dedicated collections for any grade), the people at AB who choose the syllabus seem to have done little to help in keeping music purchase cost down; books will appear for one grade piece, and then not be used again in other grades, despite there being other excellent pieces in the book, quite suitable for other grades. Studying the new Trinity syllabus, I was impressed by the amount of thought that has gone into this: many of the books needed will cover 3 or 4 grades, where appropriate. Certainly at the higher grades the cost of buying individual pices will have to be accepted, but at the lower grades, Trinity have shown that, with thought, the cost of music purchase for exam purposes can be lessened.

Oooh, thanks Brian - I shall look into that.