I have a school-based pupil who has a half-hour lesson with me every week. She's 6 going on 7 and never, ever practises. It's driving me mad. She's really quite musical and has even made a bit of progress since I started teaching her (February this year). One week she came telling me she'd been crying because her father had threatened to stop her lessons if she didn't start practising.

I do have telephone contact with the mum and have had two long talks with the mum about it. We last left it that the word 'practice' was causing a problem so the mum would gently encourage her to 'play for mummy/daddy' or 'how about having a little play on your violin?' etc etc. I make a weekly practice chart as well and it worked a bit for a couple of weeks (2 practices a week) - and then - nothing again for weeks on end.

She also learns piano (a bit), taught by her dad, but says she prefers the violin and doesn't want to stop. In a way I blame the parents because they could be gently insisting that she has a violin practice routine, bit obviously just don't bother. Either that or the girl kicks up such a fuss that they've given up reminding her.

I've never 'sacked' a student and would hate to 'chuck her out' as it would definitely upset her a lot - she likes the lessons and says she loves the violin - but...

I'm afriad to say I read her a sort of riot act at the last lesson, saying firmly that it was hard for me to enjoy lessons with her unless she practised between times, and that I didn't really think lessons should continue unless she started practising minimum 10 minutes twice a week (hardly pushing the boat out, is it?) and her eyes filled with tears and I spent the rest of the week feeling terrible about it. After all, she's not even seven yet. Oh dear...

What would anyone else here do?

The violin has always been my second instrument, and it always came in a very poor second, I also never remember practising much at all. The main reason was that the instrument hides itself away very easily, if I decided to practise I had to take it out, tune it, mess about with the bow and at the age of 6 that can take 10 minutes in itself. A piano dominates a room and you can play it whenever you walk past hence why it is my main instrument.

What I have done with both of my kids 2nd instruments is make sure they are left somewhere visible, even with the case open if they want to, which they both did when they were younger but wouldn't dream of it now, and it certainly works, both practise regularly and even when they were just beginning would never stop after only 10 minutes. The only thing they weren't allowed to do under any circumstance was to leave the bow tight.

Its sometimes hard to get children to practice....

I have regular practice competitions with all the students, and that encourages them to practice. Everyone wants to be a winner!! The improvement between lessons is very noticeable and they love the praise when they know they have done well.

I have a break of 4-6 weeks between competitions and you can definately tell the ones that practice because they love it, and the ones that need the extra encouragement to practice.

But generally, practice has got to be seen as fun!! Who wants to practice when it becomes a chore??? Maybe introduce some fun practical things (not just practicing a tune).....

Admittedly I've rarely had them as young as this, but with older ones, the tack I use is to say to them that it is not morally right for me to take their mummy's daddy's money for teaching them when they are trusting me to help them progress and they are trusting them to work hard so that the lesson is not wasted. I also say that they should try to practise as soon after the lesson as possible. That way they can see the outworking of what they have learnt; otherwise, it becomes a nightmare and very de-motivating - the later in the week they leave the practice the more of a chore it becomes and the more they will dread not being ready for the next lesson.

One thing is certain: if she's not practising now, it's not going to get much better. Novelty usually means enthusiasm - unless of course she's just too young, but I doubt that.

I can't square her eagerness to come to your next lesson with the fact that she's not motivated to work between lessons?!

LR

Intriguing! Tell us more about your practice competitions....

It's a tricky situation when the pupil's so young. I've given pupils ultimatums (ultimata? ) before, and they've either sunk or swum - as in, got the finger out or been 'sacked' - but I don't know that I could do this with a six-year-old, especially if she seems to really want to play herself. At that age they really are dependent on gentle persuasion from parents to establish a practice routine, and if this doesn't happen, a week can go by without any being done. It's also probably a bit more the case with the violin, as it's not just something the child sits down at, like the piano. It has to be got out of its case and things, and a six-year-old is unlikely to have the self-discipline to do all this herself all the time without reminders. I'm not much help, really, am I? I wonder if there's a granny, or something, who would be willing to oversee practice, even for a few days a week, till the child gets the idea? It might be worth speaking to the mother again to ask. How much help a parent can be depends on all sorts of things like working hours, how many children they have to deal with, what the distractions are in the home, and so on - not to mention their patience! Maybe a family member who doesn't live in the house would be a better one to be put in touch with if possible.

Thanks for all your suggestions so far. I do keep forgetting how young she is because she's quite tall, ie she's the same aize if not bigger and taller than some of the older ones I teach in the same school.

When I last spoke to the mum I did suggest she kept the violin hanging from a nail on the wall by a ribbon or a bit of string, and explained how just having to get the violin out of its case can be a demotivating factor. However, this hasn't been done, grrr, and I largely blame the mother here. The girl seems very 'drifty' and sort of not all there in some ways, although she has a slightly stroppy side too, which is unusual in lessons. In fact she's the only pupil I have (out of about 50) who gets a bit stroppy - it comes out when she can't play something, and then she stamps her foot and gets really frustrated. She's also the only one who never practises - but doesn't seem to see the connection!!!

I do feel bad about them paying out money week after week, but then if she cries when told they're going to stop her lessons...

I get the impression her father plays in a raunchy-sounding rock band (from the way she describes it) and I'm also getting the impression she lives ina chaotic sort of household and doesn't really get much attention. She's very unco-ordinated and easily distracted. She's also sweet in most ways, and comes across as rather vulnerable, and seems desperate for physical contact - she has a tendency to sort of brush against me or want to lean on me, which is awkward because I mustn't touch her, so I have to quickly pull away but without seeming as if I'm recoiling.

Frankly I think she comes from a bit of a disordered household and doesn't get enough focussed attention. Maybe she has what they call dyspraxia? If she's going to carry on with lessons next term perhaps I should ask for a quick word with her teacher? As well as talk to her mum again on the phone about setting up a routine for practice? But then again, I've done all that - twice! I think it's the mum I'm really annoyed with, for not proving willing to set up a routine every day - for heavens sake I'm only asking for 10 minutes three times a week! Even that would make so much difference...

But then again, if she enjoys lessons and is making progress even if it's just in the lessons....

Oh goodness I don't know. I'm dreading talking to the mum to be honest, and I feel bad that I got a bit cross with her in the last lesson. I ran into the Headmaster just afterwards and as he was chatty I told him to make sure it was OK (I rarely if ever get cross in lessons and was a bit shocked by myself), and he said: 'sometimes they do need it to be told like it is - it won't do them any harm and she's not that young.' He also made a telling remark about liberal parenting when it's taken to the extreme... hmmm.

For reasons one poster gave above it is easier to get young children to practise the piano than the violin. I actually have a thirteen year old flute pupil who has only just realised that she practises more if she doesn’t dismantle and put away her flute.

Would I be absolutely heretical in saying why don’t you give up on the practice and just “do” lessons.?
That has happened to me with a child who never got round to practising. I tried to fill the lesson time with fun things – like changing the voice on the digital piano and the way we played the (four bar long)
pieces and improvising duets on two or three notes. Progress was infinitely slow. Then one day she started to practise. This child, like your pupil, was from a very disorganised (but loving) home. She just needed time.

Aquarelle, you could be right. I think this is why I've been feeling so bad about telling her off last week. She didn't cry or anything but she looked away and was obviously a bit shaken at the time, although we did end the lesson on a much happier note (she also did some good playing after the telling off).

I also remember Sheila Nelson (great violin pedagogue) saying at a workshop thingy I attended of hers last year. Somebody asked her what to do about children who don't practise and she said just leave it - don't worry about it. Unless they're being forced into lessons, of course, in which case there's no point carrying on. But if they enjoy the lessons and really want to play that instrument they may well come round to practising of their own accord if we don't nag them about it.

It's confusing, though isn't it? Because young children like her often do need a structured routine in which to practise, and without one they just tend to forget, or get caught up doing other things until it's too late in the day. Actually something's just coming back to me - the mum told me the first time I rang her up that she blames herself for continually nagging the child to practise - she thinks this may have put her off practising altogether. I do think it takes a very clever parent to establish a routine and make it attractive enough for the child to actually want to practise on a daily basis. It can sometimes help if there's a younger sibling too, who the older child wants to show off to. This particular child is an only child, and I've noticed a lot of my best practisers have younger siblings...

I'm not sure about rewards like stickers and practice charts etc, because practice should really be its own reward - or is that in an ideal world?

Well, you seem pretty wise, Aquarelle, and Sheila Nelson knows a thing or two, so as a result of the replies I've had I've decided to ring the mother for a chat, tell her that I got a bit cross and that I'm sorry, and that if she still wants to continue and if they're happy to go on paying, then I'm happy to go on teaching her as long as she keeps enjoying lessons and carries on progressing - which she is, albeit at a minimal rate. But hey - after 5 months she can play Jingle Bells in tune quite well with the bow and with a good bow hold and not bad posture - perhaps all isn't lost after all? (but think how much she'd progress if she practised - ouch!)

A remark that made me think was about feeling bad about taking the parents' money week after week whilst seeing little progress. That's an argument I've used myself for children who don't practise as thay should. But it's possible that with a child of this age, the parents (who probably have more money to spare than us music teachers ) are happy to pay it if the child seems to enjoy the lessons, full stop. I wouldn't accept that in an older pupil, where the teacher's role is more consultative - they work at what you tell them to work at at home, and then you correct, suggest and move on in lessons - but with such a young beginner maybe part of the teacher's role is to simply demonstrate that this is fun, eventually bringing the child round to the idea that a sense of satisfaction and achievement can be added to that fun - gained through practice. "Wouldn't you love to be able to play that?" might work. "But you'd have to learn it bit by bit. What about trying the first bit at home?" "I wonder if you'd be able to get that bit right by next week?" Youngsters love to hear the teacher play. They're not impressed by really impressive stuff; it has to be something that's only just outside their own reach, and then they think you're wonderful. With a child that isn't motivated to practise, a few minutes listening to the teacher play might just provide inspiration.

Good advice, Dulciana - thanks. I think the word 'practise' has become threatening in her ears (the mother admits to having nagged her too much about it in the beginning) and now the word 'play' has taken on the same connotation - in other words, when the mother says 'how about playing your violin for me?' it now has the same effect.

Having said all that though, I did ask the child whether her mother had reminded her to play her violin since the previous lesson a week earlier and the girl said no! Some parents are pretty hapless, to be honest. I wouldn't be surprised if the parents go on and cancel lessons in any case - by the sound of it they've already given up, and as the father has already threatened to stop paying for lessons if she didn't start practising - but then doesn't offer her any support in practice (as relayed to me by the mother). Grrr, it makes me cross! When I think about the careful support all my other pupils of her age get at home - it seems like a real dereliction of duty to me - the father's a musician for heavens sake. Or liberal parenting taken to the extreme, described by the Head to me with a meaningful look.

But if I'm wrong here and they decide to continue then yes I shall take your and others' advice here and accept that with this girl it's going to be very slow progress indeed.

I have a non-practising pupil that I'm going to have to do something about next term, but she's much older. She travels from another (fairly depressed/deprived) town for lessons, which would suggest enthusiasm and she keeps asking about exams, but I am certain sure she doesn't practice. I don't have a clue what to do with her.
She's taking piano as her first instrument for Standard Grade, but at the moment she's barely playing at foundation level, and every time you introduce a new tune she takes a deep breath and says, "woah, that's really difficult". I have younger pupils playing at the same level with little trouble, but she came to me having had lessons a few years back from someone else who doesn't seem to have done a great job - she knows no theory or scales. Anyway, I'm going to have to come down pretty hard next term if she's to start making progress at all...

I have another pupil who rarely if ever practises (thank god I've only got one or two - I think I'd become brain-dead if I has any more). He came for his lesson today and finally admitted he'd hardly practised all year. Um, I think I knew that. The annoying thing (but I can forgive him now) is that we had a bit of a show-down a few months ago when I told him outright that I didn't believe him when he said he'd been practising. It even ended up with his mother accusing me of accusing him of being a liar! It all got sorted out and his mother and I are the best of friends again, but it was certainly a relief to have him admit it today.

He even admitted that he knew he'd get a lot better if he did regular, systematic practice, and also told me he's decided to really go for it next year and practise properly. If he means it, then it was worth treading water this year - I very nearly told him to call it a day and even asked for advice here, and was told 'no! don't sack him!' and I didn't. It's that Sheila Nelson thing of: if they're enjoying lessons but just treading water for a while, it's not our place to pick fault with that - perhaps it's just what they need for a while, and they'll pick up later. I've certainly had pupils before who've suddenly picked up and turned into boy or girl wonders. Everything in its own time, I guess.

I have had the odd pupil over the years, mainly at the lower levels, who never practised much but just enjoyed coming to lessons and learning at their own slow pace, often without bothering to read the music very effectively and doing a lot from memory. After squaring this with their parents and making it clear how much slower their progress would be, I have usually been happy to continue. Yes, they may never be going to "get anywhere", but they are having a musical experience that they otherwise would not have.
Though actually, in some cases, there has been a turnaround and they have become keen to learn "properly".
I can see why people want to demand proper commitment from their pupils, and whilst that is obviously preferable, I think the pupils that I am referring to have mostly had a couple of years of fun music making which I am happy to have facilitated.

I think a lot of interesting things have been said here and I would agree with those who say it’s a bit different with older children. While I do everything I can to encourage younger children to practise I have, as I said above, occasionally had to just give up until the child was mature enough to want to do more than just lessons.

However I have one non- practising girl aged 12 plus who insisted that she wanted to do an exam. I let her do the Prep Test and towards the end had to push hard and get a bit stroppy to be sure she would give at least a minimally acceptable performance. I am quite sure she is going to ask to do Grade 1 and the mother will push. I am equally sure that I will not enter her unless she practises and convinces me she will pass. But there’s a big difference between six and twelve years. I would be doing a disservice if I allowed this girl, in her second year of secondary education, to think she can succeed without working.

Incidentally I have not heard that wonderful euphemism “liberal parenting “ before. Being out of England I am not always up to date on the “in” vocabulary but I like that one!!

I think what the headmaster meant by liberal parenting'taken to the extreme' was lazy parenting. Child needs to practise violin but the parent's too wrapped up in watching TV and can't be bothered to remind child. Actual liberal parenting as opposed to authoritarian parenting really means giving the child the tools to grow up into an independent, free-thinking person, rather than sort of brainwashing them into being the kind of child you want them to be. Or that's how I understand it!

i've got a piano pupil - 15 year old girl - who is the bane of my life. I can't see why she bothers coming for her lesson - it's the worst half hour of my week, i celebrate if she can't make a lesson, she wasn't taught to read bass clef by her previous teacher and throws strops when i push her. as for practis - i think thats a foreign concept. I don't honestly know what to do about her - I kow the parents through church, she's in my youth group that I run, so ditching her would make things somewhat awkward but she insists she likes the piano. You could have fooled me. I dn't know how much more i can bare. The parents aren't terribly well off so i feel a bit bad taking money week in week out for what is in essence a waste of everyone's time. I'd love to get to the point of her not practising. her co-operating would be a start. I find this really odd as I teach about 20 people ranging 6-63 years old, male and female and don't have a problem with anyone else, even other youth group ones, so it's not that she is taking advantage. Please help...
Kirsty

I took violin lessons from the age of about 7 to about 14. I'm not really sure why my teacher carried on with me. I hardly ever practiced, and only reached grade 2. I think that one of the reasons that I didn't practice is because I knew that it sounded awful. My ear was not trained well enough to be able to tune the violin, or tune the notes that I played. I just knew that it was wrong. However, I enjoyed the lessons, and enjoyed school orchestra, and I am sure that those seven years are why I have taken up music again as an adult.

Perhaps having a 'couple of years of fun music making' is an end in itself.

An expression I like is 'constructive neglect', but that's entirely different to what the headmaster meant, and is probably actually the same thing as what Violinia was talking positively about. (If that makes any sense!) A good parent should provide the means and encourage, but know when to leave the child (and teacher...) alone to actually get on with it. Sadly, in many cases, parents are too much one way or the other!

Yes you're right Dulciana, the Head was rueful and meant 'liberal parenting in the extreme (not the good variety) - in other words, lazy, uninvolved parenting. I think this mum used to nag her daughter to practise and has now gone to the other extreme and no longer bothers.

I've decided though, that if the child wants to carry on and if they're prepared to keep paying, to step up the aural side of her lessons, get her singing a lot - she sings beautifully in tune - and make the lessons as utterly fun as possible so she feels more inspired to get her violin out between times. For the last few weeks I was trying to cram as much technique into the half hour as possible so she actually got somewhere and had something concrete to go on during the week. She was certainly (miraculously) slowly improving but I think there's got to be a better way.

In other words I've got to make that half hour just a really fun music session involving the violin.

I'm inclined to go down that road too with people who don't practise - or practise enough. It's like a panic to try to make yourself feel that something has been achieved!

Totally unconstructive comment from me there - I just identified with the above! It all comes down to the 'What are we being paid for?' question! I used to think I was prostituting myself by taking money on behalf of a child who was going nowhere, but maybe not, if they enjoy it anyway. I doubt if mine do, though - the ones who get 30 mins of non-stop yakking from me in my attempts to get a week's work into half an hour. I think I'll start trying to be more philosophical - or is this the road to nowhere? Poorer results and a bored teacher? I don't want to go there either! Maybe some of us are just better equipped to push thoses who are keen, and others are better equipped to have fun with those who don't want to work...