I have been teaching her piano since November when she was 5 - she was 6 in May.

She whizzed through the first two books in double quick time and did her Prep Test in early June - got very positive comments.

She is a natural - best pupil I have ever had, perfect sense of rhythm and timing, tells me whether a piece is in 2, 3 or 4 when we hear it on the radio, sings in tune, etc etc.

But she cries at almost every lesson and I don't know how to stop it.

It's usually when we do something hard, or something new, and she is afraid of making a mistake. She has a star chart and when she gets through a lesson without crying she gets a star - when she has coloured in 5 star she gets a special treat. It worked for a while but now she has started crying again.

I have been teaching for 13 years so am hardly inexperienced and none of my pupils have ever been like this before, and I've had them from 6 before. I don't teach her any differently, in fact I have to be far more gentle and careful with her than any of my others. She doesn't cry at school, or at her swimming or gym lessons - it's just with me and piano.

Help - what can I do?

Oh, and we also do theory, which she LOVES - she never cries in theory lessons.

An interesting conundrum. Maybe if mummy's life involves the piano to a great extent, then piano must be important, and she places a lot of pressure on herself to impress you in that regard. Then, when she doesn't get things right first time, she gets upset with herself and seeks reassurance that you still like her. With theory she might not have made the mental connection - piano teachers are rarely billed as 'piano and theory' teachers after all, so she might just see it as musical colouring-in.

Sorry, I've just waved my hands around there and not made any constructive suggestions . I do hope you can find a way through the situation, and she sounds like a delightful pupil .

Have you asked her what she's feeling when she cries? Or when she's stopped crying? She may be able to articulate it in some way. It does sound like there's some association with the piano that's stressing her out, and although she's playing well etc, the crying must mean something so it's probably best to get to the bottom of it sooner rather than later.

Hang on, YAP's mention of the word 'mummy' has made me think: are you her mum as well as her teacher? Please clarify!

It does say "my daughter" in the title...

JulieCSM, if your daughter was learning piano from another teacher and cried every time, wouldn't you feel that for some reason the lessons were a bad idea? Your daughter will be very eager to please her Mum, and will therefore say she wants to learn piano, but it sounds as if lessons are not a pleasure at the moment.

If I were you, I would let her mark time for a while with the piano and concentrate on the theory, which she loves. Unless making music is a real joy to her, there is no point pushing it at such a young age, even though she is obviously talented. If you back off now and let her have fun playing things she can already do when she chooses to, you may well find that in a few months' time she is asking you for more lessons.

Aaagh, duh, don't mind me etc etc. Sorry!

OK, she's your daughter - well then it makes much more sense. I'd say: stop teaching her piano and find her an outside teacher. Or ask her if there's any instrument she'd rather play than the piano - she could always come back to piano later on. I'd hazard a guess she's really worried about being compared unfavourably to your other pupils, as well as finding you (as her mum) being her piano teacher just too intense.

I tried teaching my son the violin at the age of 6 - because he begged me to - but after 6 months we had to give up. He was doing so well, but the lessons were degenerating into arguments and stress; I know this is different to your situation but teaching your own child rarely works in my experience and in the experience of people I know, unless it's in a 'whole family making music together' context - and even this can be fraught with problems.

I think with teaching your own child the slightest correction can come across as criticism, whereas with most activities you watch over, you're guiding rather than correcting - which is different. Also, unless you're a total saint, it's much harder not to feel the slightest emotion when it's your own child making the mistake, or not to want too much for them to be absolutely perfect at the instrument.

My son was so relieved when he took up saxophone instead and told me straight away that it was great to be learning an instrument that I couldn't play. He'd tried piano after violin and before saxophone and that didn't work out either - because I could play a fair bit of piano myself so would find myself correcting him (as gently as possible, but still correcting him) when he practised. When he took up sax he wanted me to help him with his practice, which I did, but it never annoyed him in the same way because in the end it was something he could do that I couldn't do.

I don't know if any of this is relevant to your situation but frankly I would be worried if something I was doing with my child was making them cry on a regular basis. I would have to decide it wasn't really working for her, and try something different - like a different, unrelated teacher, or even another instrument altogether. Then think of the fun you could have playing together!

We have talked about it, and sometimes she says she doesn't know why she is crying, and sometimes she says it's because it's hard.

Short of only going over old stuff which she knows (and enjoys playing - she loves playing her Prep Test pieces still) and never doing any new stuff to bring her on, I'm not sure how to resolve this.

I am careful not to introduce a new piece until I think she is ready for it (which isn't necessarily when SHE thinks she is ready), then I am careful to make it 'easy'. Like her newest piece, for two lessons she only did the LH while I did the RH. Once she wasn't scared of that any more, today I had her play the easiest bit of the RH which is two bars, which are repeated three times in the piece. Then we put them together. The trickier RH I am saving till she is comfortable with what we have done so far.

So I say "See, that wasn't hard, was it?" and she agrees. But it's the fear of the unknown - she THINKS it will be harder than it actually is.

Sometimes the tears come as soon as I turn the page.

I have thought of sending her to a different teacher for a while, but I only work part time and we have another baby on the way - money is short. This is why it was so perfect for me to teach her, because it didn't cost anything. We would have to give up her other activities to afford an outside teacher. And she doesn't want to learn any other instrument - I have asked her.

I have also asked her if she wants to stop piano for a while and she said no.

And I have frequently told her she is far better than any of my other pupils - the best I have had!!! Which is true.

*sigh*

But if this was happening with another teacher you would probably decide it was the wrong teacher! Could you find another teacher with a child who wants to learn piano but not with their mum? And work out some kind of swap, where you teach theirs and they teach yours?

Also, my son was similarly the best I'd ever had - but in the end that wasn't enough. Oh and it didn't occur to him to want to play saxophone until he heard one playing in a movie and suddenly fell in love with the sound...

This is all so desperately familiar to me that it makes me want to cry - especially these last two comments. And I don't know what the answer is. Even sending your own children to another teacher isn't always the answer, because you're still there when they practise, and they're still aware of you, no matter how much you try to leave them alone. I've been there with four children, all of whom started at the same young age, and who were the best pupils I ever had. But it's hard. It's ###### hard. I have no advice and can only offer support. If she doesn't want to stop then just keep going and just try to be as up-beat as possible. I wish you the very best of luck. x

I had the same problem with my son and his flute - and he's a teenager. I taught him for a while and there were tears (yes, tears) at every lesson. Eventually I decided to use the school music service. Now there's the practicing problem - he doesn't want me around. He'll practice after I've gone to bed (yes, I go before him) or if I'm out. I'm very careful not to criticise his practice - even when sometimes I have to hold my tongue and listen to him do something wrong for a while before showing him a "new trick".

I think it's just frustration. I try not to criticise and I try to make any praise directly about "improvements" that I hear - because if I say something is good in an absolute sense there's always the accusation that it's not as good as I would have played it. To me the most important thing is to do what it takes not to put him off music all together. I'd recommend sending your daughter to another teacher.

I'm not sure that trying to stop her from crying is a good idea. If you can't help whatever makes her cry, knowing that she's not supposed to cry might actually make things even worse, crying being one more thing to worry about. I'm no expert in the psychology of small children, but I remember similar situations from when I was a child quite vividly (I was trying very hard to please everyone, and used to take it very hard when I couldn't). Ok, I guess I'm not very helpful, I just felt like voicing my concern about trying to handle the crying itself when you can't eliminate the cause.

"Save your tears for when you really need them."

This comes on the back of an explanation, delivered with utter sincerity, that crying is OK and that sometimes really bad things can happen and crying is something you just have to do, but you only have so many tears and you don't want to get to a point where you really need them and find you've run out.

Best wishes

barry

You could try sharing the lesson together. You pick a piece you are having trouble with and making mistakes and take turns in trying things out. You could get her to spot your mistakes and make little comments like - 'oh yes I have trouble with that' 'maybe if I try it this way' 'was that any better?'
You could also play 'spot the deliberate mistake' - taking turns.
You could have fun jangling up tunes she knows very well and encouraging her to make a caricature of one.
The principle is to show that making mistakes is a learning event - emphasis on 'show' not 'tell'
Having fun while making mistakes may take the heat out of it.
If you can do it - never correct her - ask for her impression of how she did. If she is making the same mistake over - try a fun exercise not connected with the piece and she will correct herself.
Hope any of this sounds as if it would help

I agree with the above and that she really needs to have a different teacher - I too have struggled with teaching my own children.

In the meantime, only teach her if she has really indicated that she wants a lesson. Make sure the lessons are as easy as possible, even if you think she is not making the progress she should be making, building up her confidence is the most important thing at the moment. Give her lots of praise. Remind her frequently that mistakes do not matter, in fact they help you to learn. Be very laidback in your manner, turn things into games, bring in soft toys to demonstrate, just have loads of fun. You could make mistakes on purpose and laugh about it. Ignore the tears (as this has become a pressure too), just continue in a very light hearted way and make the lesson very short and give her lots of praise at the end for what she has acheived. I think that over time she will relax more and more and you will be able to judge when to make things slightly harder.

This is why it was so perfect for me to teach her, because it didn't cost anything.

not in financial terms. But it may be costing dear in other ways ! Just a thought.

I don't know - it's difficult to tell whether your daughter gets really stressed and bothered, or whether the tears are few and just a release of anxiety.

If she really doesn't want to give up I think I would keep it very undemanding for now. Find some pieces that are her current level and don't involve anything much in the way of new learning and let her enjoy them. She may just need a pause along the way to catch her breath.

Is it possible that this is adding to the pressure for her - does she feel in some way that she has to 'be the best' so feels under pressure to always do well? Do you teach at home, so your daughter hears the standard of your other pupils?

Just a thought.

I teach both my children and they enjoy their lessons and practice hard. Now just because it works for me does not mean it will work for everyone.

Try to find out why she is crying and understand those tears. Yes I've had kids cry in lessons (normally when things suddenley get harder) One lesson in a while talking through concerns can be really useful, a whole load of tearful lessons suggests there is something wrong with the teacher/pupil relationship.

The reason I can teach my kids is whilst I teach them, they are treated as pupils and not as my kids. They receive the same amount of praise and the same constructive critisim. I save the enouraging praise to when they are practising. It is then I turn back into "mummy".

Now I help at school too, when even my own children have to call me Mrs Debenham not Mum.

It is hard teaching your own kids, but the key is to treat them professionally all the time and make it clear when your are being mum and when you are being teacher.

Well, there is lots of good advice, some of which I already do. I don't want to send her somewhere else and I'm not sure it would be possible to make a reciprocal arrangements with anothe teacher. None of the piano teachers I know have children her age. Although it might be a good idea.

I have just bitten the bullet and asked her right out a) if she enjoys piano, b) if she wants to stop and c) if she wants to go to a different teacher.

Her answers were: a) Yes and no (after a thoughtful moment), as sometimes it's hard, b) NO (quite emphatically) and c) NO (again emphatically and with a whimper)

I also suggested we not do hard things for a while, just do stuff that she knows and maybe new things which are easy. This goes against the grain for me as I know that she won't progress, but maybe it's better not to progress for a while, to consolidate what she already knows, and not lose the love of music. We can do theory and aural, both of which she loves.

I'm glad I asked her as I was worried I was making her do something she didn't want to, just to satisfy myself.

I do have some pupils at home, but most of them are at school.

What I have noticed is when I practise at home, she will always point out my mistakes - LOL! I have always used "how do you think that went" with all my pupils, rather than me telling them what they did wrong; it's important for them to be able to spot their own mistakes from a practise POV. Maybe I subconsciously don't do that as much with her.

Ah well. I might bring in the soft toy idea - she will probably like that.

I too thought the rewards for not crying were an inadvisable thing to do. She's only 6 and if she needs to cry she needs to cry - children cry far more than adults after all - not because they're bad at handling their emotions but because it's the way they are - their emotions come easily to the surface because of the way their brains are formed at that age, and are necessarily released with tears.

Trying to get a child to stop crying is over-controlling and not in a child's interest at all. Distracting a child from crying - if you can do it - is fine because it can actually help the child to see beyond the thing that's upsetting them. Getting them to suppress their tears is something else, though, and will only drive the pain that's behind the crying into a deeper, less expressible place.

To be quite honest I'm at a loss to understand how you can really consider carrying on teaching her when it obviously causes her such distress. How can doing something with our child be right if it makes them cry on a regular basis?

As for her being really good at it - this is very likely because she's being brought up by a musical mother, she hears the piano being played all the time and you can help her with practice. My son was really good at violin for the same reasons but it wasn't enough and in the end the distress the lessons were causing him were reason enough to pack it in. It caused me great sadness at the time because I saw it as a waste of what was to be potentially an unusual ability - but I had to let it go.

A very wise conservatoire violin teacher friend of mine told me how his father (also a well-known violinist) had tried to teach him for a while but it just didn't work - it was too intense for him. In the end they found him another teacher and everything was absolutely fine after that. If your daughter really has a great talent for the piano then surely it would be worth moving heaven and earth to find her the right teacher, even if that meant her giving up another activity?

This would also mean, though, that you would have to do your utmost best to stay right out of her practice too, other than providing the routine and opportunity, plus the odd word of distracted-sounding praise. On that note, a pianist friend of mine has been finding it so hard to stay out of her daughter's piano practice that she actually left the house and came to mine while her daughter practised for one week not long ago! Now they've come to an arrangement where the father - who is not a musician of any description - supports her in her practice and the mother has nothing to do with it at all - to the extent of going to the furthest end of their house completely out of earshot.

On the note of praise for practice - even that can be too intense for a child to handle. My son's father - not a musician by any stretch of the imagination - used to praise my son profusely for his saxophone playing. It really was sincere heartfelt praise (not encouragement by way of praise), but my son used to tell me it irritated him intensely as he found it embarrassing and 'too much'. In the end I think our children want to be praised and appreciated for who they are rather than what they've accomplished. Perhaps this is because praising them for what they've accomplished can feel to children a bit too much like a feather in the parent's cap, rather than their own, unfortunately.

I really do agree. My husband and I are both professionals and we have three grown up children who are all musicians. We were advised by friends years ago that teaching your own children is not a good idea as it's too difficult to combine being a parent and a teacher. My husband did in fact teach one of our sons for some time, but the atmosphere was often uncomfortable and in the end we found someone else to teach him.
Even if your daughter says she doesn't want another teacher, it is something you should consider as she gets older. I hate to think of her being so upset in every lesson - music lessons are supposed to be enjoyable.

I've just see you've written a other post this morning and would like to add a bit. You say your daughter said 'NO - with a whimper' when you asked her if she'd like to have a different piano teacher. To me this would be a warning bell - it's perfectly normal for a 6-year-old to have a piano teacher who isn't their mum, even if their mum is a piano teacher! It's also not usual for a 6-year-old to cry regularly during lessons, so for her to opt for lessons with her mother (but which make her cry) rather then lessons with someone else, which most likely wouldn't make her cry - suggests there's another dynamic going on that she's quite unable to express or articulate - she's only 6 after all.

In other words, could she be worried that choosing another teacher over you would be a sort of rejection of you? After all, you're one of her two favourite grown-ups in the whole world so how can she, at the age of 6, articulate or even understand that she might enjoy lessons a lot more with someone else? After all presumably she's never had a piano lesson with anyone else! I remember asking my son the same thing: 'would you prefer to learn the violin with someone else?' (he was also 6 at the time) and it was a completely unfair question to ask him as to him it probably sounded almost like 'would you prefer a different mummy?'!

I can see how you're in quite a difficult situation with it, and if the teaching does result in tears again later on and you feel you have to stop, the only way you'd be able to move her to another teacher would be to somehow be able to explain to her why being her mummy and being her piano teacher at the same time just didn't work.

I do truly see the need to try and carry on because to see my son playing the violin so beautifully at such a young age and after such a relatively short time (6 months altogether) was such a hard thing to give up, for his sake as well as mine. He could have been really good! But he's not, and I partly blame myself - because I know a couple of people who have been able to teach their own children - but quite honestly I don't think it would have worked even with another teacher, because I wouldn't have been able to stay completely out of his violin practice. My mum couldn't stay out of mine - it used to make me completely furious and probably had a lot to do with my complicated relationship with the violin for many years! As it was, the sax became completely 'his thing' and he used to love telling me how great it felt that he could play it and I couldn't.

In the end, the vast majority of instrumental teachers find it just too difficult to teach their own children so if it doesn't work out, the best thing is not to beat yourself up about it or find ways round it, but try a different way altogether.

NB My conservatoire violin teacher friend has two children. One of them plays violin amazingly well (but her father has never given her a lesson) and the other one plays piano and bassoon (neither of which either parent plays). The father realised right from the start that he'd be the wrong teacher for her because of what had happened with his father...

Julie, glad to see that you and your daughter were able to have a talk about piano.

I haven't seriously tried to teach my kids music (elder son occasionally asks me for a lesson on the flute), but from memory, 6 was not such an easy age with music!

My younger son switched to a new violin teacher at this point (very scary teacher), and his new teacher said to me that if kids don't start at 4 or so, she often finds they do better to wait till nearly 7. Her experience was that very small kids will rarely be upset about their own mistakes if Mum praises them, but 5 and 6 year olds start to become more objective about their performance...only trouble is, they can't tell if an error or a difficulty is the end of the world, or just a minor hiccup.

Lots of praise is always helpful...but maybe talk about how much you enjoyed it, and how nice the piano sounded, and not just how "good" she is, in case that fuels her fear of not being able to do as well every time (a schoolfriend of mine used to say she found praise terrifying, because of the unspoken expectations that went with it).

It took a long time for my son to overcome his fear, so taking it as slowly and gently as possible now will surely be a benefit in the long run. Maybe let her play her comfortable old pieces a bit more? And go slowly with some stuff at the same level? Not that I'm a teacher, but I noticed that there were periods when my son really didn't want any big challenges (played some old favorites for YEARS), and with young children, maybe that's the natural pattern ?

Whatever level she's playing at, I think it's all good in the long run. All the music she plays, easy or hard, is money in her musical bank!

My own experience of teaching my offspring was that it was a disaster. He refused to learn and got stroppy and I lost patience. Before our relationship as parent/child broke down forever, we stopped the arrangement and then offspring went off and studied three different instruments and did very well on them all thank you. However, Mum was never wanted as accompanist for grade exams - far too stressful!

I am inclined to think your daughter (who will, after all, be very sensitive to her Mum's thoughts and needs) is trying to cope for both of you and failing. She wants to do well for you as well as herself and she's almost certainly picking up the tension you, as mother and teacher, are showing when she cries. The fact that you've now told her she's your best pupil seems, to me at least, to put even more pressure on her and she's still very young to be trying to sort out all these different emotions.

Personally, I'd let her get on with the theory, stop "formal" piano lessons for now but just let her play on the piano when she feels like it. Then, if she asks about lessons, you can either decide to teach her on the understanding she doesn't cry every time or, as I would actually think may be best, you find her another teacher and let them get on with her.

She's full young still - there's time so I'd just relax on this for while - for both your sakes.

Hope this works out - let us know how you both get on.

I also notice from previous postings that she's already taken the prep test and that you felt anxious about it. While feelings of anxiety are natural when our children take tests of any kind, it's almost inevitable that our children pick up on these feelings, which can be very hard for them to handle when they're as small as your daughter. Add that to the fact that you're her teacher and passing the exam becomes a reflection of her mother's teaching as well as her own playing - too much pressure by far in my view.

Also - three lessons a week! And lots of crying, presumably at most lessons? That's a lot to be putting her through, however good she is at the piano..

Reflect on it, would you persist with any other activity that made her cry every time you did it together? I kind of doubt it. I hope easing off the pressure works for both of you - if not, with your enthusiastic blessing I'm sure she'd accept another teacher in the future.

Been there, done that, got the t shirt as well as 5 kids.....I'd suggest

When she cries, the lesson stops.

Without any negative aspect, just "You can't have a lesson if you are crying. We can try again tomorrow."

If she wants to have piano lessons more than she wants to cry she'll stop!

(Not trying to be funny, small kids (under 7 say) are not complicated mostly. If she was a dog that barked at the wrong time then she'd spend a lot of time at doggie-training classes in the sin bin behind the curtain...I just think trying to overanalyze small kids is a mistake. Sticking with action and consequence is good.)

You have a very musical daughter and want to treasure that wonderful talent - you may also have to accept that it may not be you that nurtures it as you may wish. She is so young and has achieved so much already - I know you must be so proud of that. Don't worry about her progressing all the time - take time out to have fun (it's got to be fun) and let her thoroughly consolidate all she knows. I teach many youngsters and have never said to any 'You're the best pupil I have...' I think there's a lot loaded on that and your daughter could well feel unable to always keep up to that standard. I agree with other posts that a separate teacher who is not mum is the way to go.

I have three children - my eldest, a girl, could do well but we had the full set of screaming, shouting and lid slamming and it was a nightmare - she got to Gr 1 then played clarinet. My eldest son was never interested in the piano at all. My youngest son, the most amenable also got to Gr 1 (took it the same day as his sister funnily enough) and now plays drums and cornet. He is the most natural pianist of the three and I will send him to someone else any time he wants.

All this is NOT because you are unable to teach her, it is because you're her mum. A friend of mine, she is an AB examiner, got her two very talented boys started on the piano then when they were 8 they went off to another lady for their piano lessons. When the eldest first was told this was happening he smiled, relaxed, and said ,' Oh good, now I can go to a real piano teacher!!!'

SOMETIMES IT WORKS...SOMETIMES IT DOESN'T... she is very young. I have taught my sons singing...but one from about 8 and the other 11..... the eldest is 14 now and I half heartedly teach him. You can't really treat them the same as the other pupils...Ialso was their class teacher...one in Year 2 and one in Year 3.... thjey never cried IN SINGING LESSONS...BUT THE ELDEST ONLY REALLY PRACTISED WHEN EXAMS CAME AROUND...IT IS REALLY hard but it can work. I would hold off for a while...she is young...Ihave a pupil who can quite often cry in lessons... especially if there are new things... and I haven't introduced them the right way...so perhaps that with the combination of your own child is too much.

Couldn't agree with you less on your last paragraph. Small kids may not generally be complicated per se but surely you realise they're also just little people and their emotions can run as deep as any adult's?

I was talking reminsicing with my son about his childhood the other day (he's 18 now); we were talking about his nursery school days. I asked him if he remembered the principal (she moved away years ago) and he said 'yes of course I do' and named her. I said 'can you remember her enough to describe her?' and he described her down to the last detail and said 'she was a bit geeky, wasn't she?' I said 'blimey, you were only 4 when you last saw her - how did you know she was geeky?' and he said 'I didn't, but looking back I can see she was.' Then he told me 'you know, I feel exactly the same as I did then - I was as much me then as I am now - it's just that now I'm sort of big and grown-up - but I was the same person inside.'

So think about it - do we as adults just cry for the sake of it? Because we can't think of anything better to do, or because we like the sound of our own crying? Or do we cry because the emotions are so strong we have to let them out, and we haven't learnt to suppress them the way we have to as adults (I'm presuming that's why adults don't cry as much as children - or perhaps our tear-ducts just get smaller). Anyway, don't children cry because of what they're feeling, not because they enjoy it, or want to annoy us? Yes you can train a dog not to bark but dogs have to be tamed and socialised to live in a world of humans because thet're not human in the first place! Children are human, just newer and smaller, but I think it's very wrong to condition them into denying their feelings - that way no end of trouble can lie.

When she cries, the lesson stops.

Without any negative aspect, just "You can't have a lesson if you are crying. We can try again tomorrow."

If she wants to have piano lessons more than she wants to cry she'll stop!

(Not trying to be funny, small kids (under 7 say) are not complicated mostly. If she was a dog that barked at the wrong time then she'd spend a lot of time at doggie-training classes in the sin bin behind the curtain...I just think trying to overanalyze small kids is a mistake. Sticking with action and consequence is good.)
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So think about it - do we as adults just cry for the sake of it? Because we can't think of anything better to do, or because we like the sound of our own crying? Or do we cry because the emotions are so strong we have to let them out, and we haven't learnt to suppress them the way we have to as adults (I'm presuming that's why adults don't cry as much as children - or perhaps our tear-ducts just get smaller). Anyway, don't children cry because of what they're feeling, not because they enjoy it, or want to annoy us? Yes you can train a dog not to bark but dogs have to be tamed and socialised to live in a world of humans because thet're not human in the first place! Children are human, just newer and smaller, but I think it's very wrong to condition them into denying their feelings - that way no end of trouble can lie.
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But the original poster's kid is in the HABIT of crying now, for whatever reason.
She can't articulate why and her mother can't either.
Simply breaking the habit is a good way for this kid to move onwards, this is not crying for a good reason is it? The grown up person can be in charge here and let the kid know that this is not an appropriate way to behave.

Still you're not going to agree with me and I'm not remotely bothered!
I was the mother at playgroup who told her toy-snatching kid "NO! You DON'T grab toys off others" not the one who asked her kid "Oh Jonny...why did you do that? Is your self esteem low today darling?"

Hi Julie,

I hope no-one minds me replying here as I'm not a teacher, or a parent for that matter. I am however, a student, and (funnily enough!) a daughter.

Your daughter cries when you are teaching her, often when attempting something new or more difficult, I believe. (Sorry, I read the first post quite a long time ago and am frantically trying to remember details!) I tried to think of a similar situation with my mum and I. It's not to do with music, but here's what I came up with - my mum and grandmother are both fantastic at cooking, and so have always encouraged me to make things, experiment with ingredients, help them out in the kitchen etc, as it is presumed that I too should be good at cooking. Your daughter obviously does have musical talent, she proved that with the Prep Test. I, however, am not fantastic at cooking and have come to hate cooking for my family as I feel I am constantly being watched and criticised for doing something wrong. Again, it would seem that you are not criticising your daughter, and so she shouldn't feel afraid of going wrong, but I suspect that may be partly where the problem lies.

This may be completely wrong, but this is my idea. I think that your daughter feels that she must do well in order to please you. Even though you say that you praise her, encourage her and reassure her, she is only 6 years old, and so probably focusses on the negatives rather than the positives. For example, if she is playing a piece and happens to go wrong, her initial thoughts may be 'Oh no, Mum's going to be upset with me'. If I'm baking a cake and it doesn't rise properly, I just know that my mum is going to tell me how I could have done it better, which may not be criticism but I still feel like I've let her down.

I can't find a simple way of putting into words what I'm trying to say , but I think the posts above mine have a lot of sense in them. I think it's important for your daughter to understand that you truly don't mind if she goes wrong. I don't know how you could go about telling her this, and reinforcing it, but at the moment I think she is possibly getting upset because she wants to do better, to please you.

We're making unnecessarily heavy weather of this, folks!

Child cries repeatedly when Mum tachers her; child has no problems with tears in any of her other school experiences with other teachers.

Conclusion: change teacher. It's not rocket science. Please take it from me, in the majority of cases children being taught on a one-to-one by their parents doesn't work. I pig-headedly insisted on dragging my own daughter through piano from beginner to Grade I, at which point she stopped altogether. Most lessons ended in tears / arguments, etc. My other daughter went to a different teacher and thrived - now up to Grade VII. I have to live with the guilt of this for the rest of my life. I did her no favours musically.

It's obviously not working. Stop the hand-wringing and for her sake - the sooner the better - cut your losses. She's a very musical girl; allow her to develop her talents with an outside teacher before further damage is done. Please!

LR

Come on, you wrote a pretty contentious post so you should be prepared to debate it, not just do a 'hit and run'.

'Turning on the tears' for a reward of some sort is only effective anyway with a parent who keeps giving in to tears no matter what they're about. Otherwise tears are generally the expression of stress - and hardly likely to be just some sort of bizarre habit or 'inappropriate behaviour'.

And taking seriously the tears of a child who doesn't normally make a habit of crying doesn't mean you've got the wishy washy attitudes of the parent who can't tick a child off when they deserve it.

I totally agree with what Lone Ranger says above, and also wish I'd got a violin teacher for my son instead of trying to teach him myself. I have enormous admiration for the parents who can teach their own children successfully but the truth is - in the vast majority of cases it just doesn't work.

Actually, if you read, she did say why she was crying, and so did I. Several times in fact. She cries when we turn the page to something new because she is afraid it will be difficult.

What I want to do is try to make her understand that there is no need to cry just because we are learning something new and that there is nothing to be afraid of.

Mind you, I recall crying sometimes in music lessons (when I was a LOT younger obviously) when I couldn't do something - it was mainly frustration BECAUSE I couldn't do it.

Julie, at risk of sounding interfering - but then you did post the original question on a public teachers' forum - you say she doesn't cry at school, and presumably the teachers there are continually giving her new things to learn.......don't you think it might be possible that the crying is more to do with the fact that you're both her mother and her piano teacher - a combination that just might be too intense for her, period? Especially in light of the fact that so many other posters here have tried to teach their own children (myself included, when my son was exactly the same age as your daughter) and found it unworkable in the end because of arguments and/or crying?

In other words, her fear of something being too difficult - hence the tears - is tied up in the fact that it's you showing her the new thing, not purely the fact it's a new thing? You say you cried sometimes in music lessons when you were small, but surely if it had happened that frequently your teacher would have got worried about it and told your parents? And something would have had to be done?

My mum was my dancing teacher for 15 years. She said it was absolute ######.
I was often almost in tears due to my high expectations and took all my frustrations out on her. But that is the point. It wasn't that I didn't want to do it, just that if I hit a tricky bit and couldn't pull it off first time I was wild with frustration.
It never is ideal teaching anything to someone close to you. Sounds good in theory, but you know them too well and so follows lots of arguing, fighting and tears. (And that's just the teachers!)
Maybe she is still a little young to cope with the emotional side of it. I sometimes feel piano is a bit like golf, when it's going well it's like you can do anything, if it's not going well .........................look out!

I agree with Lone Ranger - there is too much pressure on the child. Your daughter sounds very talented but surely nothing is worth frequents tears of a six year old. Why cannot she be left to go at her own pace and enjoy the journey

Would that be such a bad thing? She's only 6 after all: consolidating and learning to play lots of repertoire at that level really well surely won't do her much harm - and as she gets more and more proficient, you will be able to very very gradually up the ante.


I agree. As Violinia says, children are more emotional... making her feel she's not allowed to cry could be counter-productive.


I wondered the same.


*nods* It would be FAR more of a disaster for her to lose the joy in the music than to progress very slowly for a while - again, she is only 6!! She has masses of time for progression - why push her now?


Yes!

Why do they always edit your post to make it look as if you've said something utterly obscene when you haven't?!

Yes, I think parents can't teach their own kids most of the time. My mom and dad gave up on tutoring me in math simply because I couldn't concentrate and I didn't like not being able to understand what I was taught and appearing 'stupid' by asking very basic questions. And even worse because they were both really good at it, and although they didn't say it, I could feel they were thinking, "We're both good at this, how come you aren't?" So I guess your daughter might not be feeling very secure although she really wants to exceed your expectations.

However, I have another idea, since you say money is a bit short. And I have seen two people doing this and it worked. I suggest you teach her in a group class. When she has young friends around, she'll be distracted for a bit from trying too hard, and it can be more fun. Then since she's really a good student, she'll feel quite good being able to do almost everything the class does. And she can also see that you treat her as one of your students in class. Right now, she doesn't know that you treat her any different from your students because she has no one to compare with! But you'll have to stay out of it when she practices. Once your home alone with her again, you're only her mom, and not her piano teacher and so she's responsible for her own practice. Hope this helps.

Now that IS a good idea.

"One child, one teacher, bad environment"

I beg your pardon?

Do you really think so?

So - who said: 'one child, one teacher, bad environment'? What kind of a generalisation is that? There are advantages and disadvantages with both individual and group teaching but in the end it surely it comes down to the teacher and the relationship teacher and child have with each other.

Yehudi Menuhin, Maxim Vengerov and every other star violinist you care to mention spent years studying under one person, as did countless other happy, successful instrumentalists. Group teaching is a great idea but it's hard for the students to reach the same standards of excellence without individual lessons as well.

Surely the best is a combination of both, but sadly most people can't afford this. Group instrumental teaching in schools has taken off largely because of cost-cutting; children of differing levels of ability are often flung together in tiny rooms, and progress becomes slow. This year I've taken on several pupils whose parents were fed up with the slow progress their children were making in group violin lessons; after a few weeks of individual lessons they all quickly started improving and getting to grips with the instrument.

This isn't to lay the blame on the peris at all - even Sheila Nelson (huge believer in the group methid) uses assistants in her group lessons to make it work.

So - a group piano lesson - how do you see that working?

I've successfully taught my older 2 children music theory, and continue to do so (now working on grade 4, aged 13 and 14, 100% distinctions so far).

I have tried to help my daughter with aural tests in preparation for singing exams. The sessions inevitably degenerate into tears from her and terrible frustration for me.

My youngest, now 6, has attended preinstrumental music classes for years - based on Kodaly approach, that he has enjoyed very much and he has also done some theory with me - again, very successful. However, trying to do anything practical on the piano with him is a nightmare. He can concentrate beautifully on other activities and we have the occasional flash of inspiration, but mostly it just doesn't seem to work because I am Mum.

I agree with other posters that you will probably be better off sending your daughter to an outside teacher in the medium to long term. However, you seem to have made a good start and just lost your way at the moment so...

How about changing the focus of what you are trying to do in lessons - try doing some rhythm work with simple percussion instruments, improvising (so whatever she plays has got to be right!), singing games, theory games (I really like printablemusicgames.com), reading about music and musicians and listening to music together - the ABRSM series for children is lovely.

Hope this helps,

Sue

I taught my older son like this...it took the heat off... I don't officially teach him now...but work with him for exams...if that makes sense... I think I may have to get him a singing teacher at some point..

Do I understand this correctly Julie? Are you really posting to a forum to ask advice from a bunch of strangers on communicating with your own daughter? If that`s the case I don` t think anyone here can help you!!!

best of luck

What?! I teach one-on-one all the time and the kids thrive... must be doing something wrong!

That's very rude.

Asking advice from a bunch of strangers is what everyone does on a forum - that being the point of the forum! Strangers with a common interest who we hope will provide impartial advice and suggestion.

Yes, me too.

But I still think it's worth considering how a different set-up might have benefits isn't it?

I teach small groups in one of my schools (not my choice at all) and I'm surprised often how well it works since the kids pick up so much from each other as we go...

(It's a quote from Suzuki btw.)