I have a student who started with me in March as a complete beginner on the violin, or on any stringed instrument for that matter. He's a good pianist but hasn't played for years and always secretly wanted to play the violin. He was incredibly quick right from the start and has an unusual instinctive flair, so is a joy to teach. He works full time but manages about one to one and a half hour's practice most days. He worked quickly through a beginner book and has now mastered three or four Grade 2 pieces as well as all the scales and arpeggios, and if he was to take the exam he'd get a distinction, no problem.

I've got him playing a combination of studies, the Grade 2 stuff and also a piece from the Grade 4 TG repertoire and am now planning to put him onto a nice selection of pieces called 'Amazing Solos'. He wants to work through the grades to Grade 8 in the shortest time possible (without necessarily all taking the actual exams), and now tells me he intends to make playing the violin his profession!

My dilemma is: has anybody actually heard of anyone making the violin their profession when they didn't take it up until the age of 27? I haven't...and yet this person has made such amazing progress in such a short space of time I didn't feel it was right to say he was being unrealistic. He also now tells me he's thinking of changing his job so he can practise 2 or more hours a day instead of the current one and a half. Yikes!

I'm very excited about him but at the same time don't want to give him unrealistic expectations. What I did tell him was that if he could reach Grade 8 with distinction as well as playing a lot of other repertoire, and follow that with something like the CTABRSM then he could certainly take up a career as a violin teacher and get paid work in string quartets (weddings etc) and local orchestras. But at the same time I've never met anyone who started violin this late and made it their career. Am I giving him unrealistic expectations?

That's an awkward position to be in! Its fantastic to have such an obviously gifted and enthusiastic pupil, but if he has only been playing for 4/5 months, maybe changing his job is a bit of a huge leap!

I know singers who decided to concentrate on music and make it their career in their late twenties, with varying degrees of success. I'd say if he is really good he probably could make a living in ensembles and teaching if he really wanted to, but does he realise what this would really entail? Out of interest, is it physically possible for an adult to get the same dexterity on the violin as someone who started as a child?

Regrettably, his chances of becoming a professional violinist (playing) are slim to zero. As you say, he may become good enough to do wedding bookings or corporate events and teach, but to actually make a living out of playing is incredibly difficult, even for musicians who went to music college and have been through the orchestral training mill.

The latter of my ramblings being the most important part. Orchestral experience needs to be gained, but has to be done in a professional setting (music college, extra work, semi-pro etc.), as opposed to playing in amateur orchestras. If your professional CV lists amateur orchestras as a training ground, then I'm sorry to say it, but your CV will go in the bin.

As with many new pupils they can gain a huge amount of ground in a very short space of time, especially if they do seem particularly well-suited to an instrument and make the time to practice. However, his current rate of progress should not be treated as definitive. There is bound to be something of a plateau in learning somewhere along the line. Most instruments tend to 'ramp up' in technical difficulty around grade 5 and 6. I've also had some very promising pupils who seem to grind to a halt at grade 6. The techncial challenges become too great and regrettably they reach their glass ceiling. If a pupil has the ability to get past that successfully, then they will at least reach grade 8, at which another glass ceiling seems to appear. It's not just down to hard practice, there really is an inherent amount of natural flair attached to it.

On the physical side, playing the violin is not for those who inherently posess a stiff physique, whatever their age. It requires nimble, independent fingers and the ability to contort parts of the the upper half of your body - and hold it there for extended periods! - in directions that Nature never really intended. Once the growth plates have done their job, there are a few more years before the body fuses these together entirely. That age is about 25, if my forensics knowledge serves me right, which means that at 27 it's just a little late to take advantage of body parts that might have otherwise been mouldable into strange directions.

All said and done, I commend this chap for being so enthusiastic. He certainly deserves every ounce of encouragement, but I think he needs to be aware of the realities too.

Well,

I'm a similarly late starter on a stringed instrument. I too whizzed through that early work. I reached plateaus, progress got slower, but still I did continue to make progress. I auditioned for and was accepted onto a BMus programme which I hope to finish this year. My performing experience- ensemble , orchestra etc - has all been within the Uni environment. Where I will go and what I will do after this is anybody's guess.

The difference between your pupil and myself, I suppose, is that I only ever studied music as an end in itself. I had and continue to have no major ambitions or expectations in this field and simply enjoy it for what I get out of it personally. I suspect I will continue at a semi pro or even pro level. I don't know. Does anyone? However, what my experience proves I suppose, is that it is possible to get this far at least.

I think your advice was very well measured.

All the best
Iona

It must be fantastic to have such an enthuastic pupil and he must really love the instrument. There are plenty of career paths he could take in music such as teaching both privately and in the classroom, playing in ensembles/orchestras ect. Being in his late 20's he's far from being past his sell by date and his own career has barely started (even more so if he went to university as he'd only have been working for 4 or 5 yeasr). It sounds to me like it's his dream so he might as well follow it. At the end of the day many people here would secretely love to be professional musicians but the realisation of that dream will hit us all at one point if we aren't destined to make it. When this happens to him he'll still have a wonderful skill under his belt and i'm sure he'll still enjoy playing.

I wish I was so certain of what I wanted to do with my life!

Thank you to all who commented - fantastic advice. I do think he may be at the point just before his growth plates have done their job, because his fingers are getting more and more nimble and finding their way around the fingerboard very nicely. He also plays well in tune and is developing a lovely bowing technique. He's just so quick to learn! I demonstrate spiccato - he develops a nice, well-controlled spiccato. I show him how to do martelle and he gets it almost immediately. He looks like a natural violinist and nothing like someone who's only been playing for five months. I even got suspicious once and asked him: 'are you absolutely sure you've never played violin before?' He said absolutely not, so I assume he's just naturally very supple as well as being very musical.

I will definitely tell him it's highly unlikely he could ever reach a high enough standard to be able to play in a top professional orchestra and can use an example of a brilliant cellist friend who started playing when she was 6, used to play in the LSO, stopped for a few years to have children and now can't regain the requisite standard to be allowed back in! But there are plenty of amateur orchestras he could join when the time's right, and he could certainly make a living as a violin teacher if he can get to Grade 8 with a high mark, and learn the skills of teaching violin. He could also bring in money working in a string quartet playing at functions. Will it ever be a decent income? Hmm, but he seems so determined to make it his life, I don't want to discourage him!

I'll keep you posted on his progress. Anyway, I must try and keep my feet on the ground over this one - he could suddenly decide he's had enough and take up trumpet instead - you never know what's round the corner do you? Especially with the young!

What an interesting thread,

I am sure things will pan out and that the reality of his situation will slot into place. I hate to say this but I fear his chances as a professional orchestral musician are very slim, you have no idea how much it pains me to say that...I would love nothing more than to see a late starter make it to one of the desks but its a tall order. I am however certain that he can have an interesting musical life playing in orchestras and chamber groups as a talented amateur lauded at every concert for his fine playing, he will in all likelyhood probably enjoy it more seeing as it's not his living. I suspect in time the reality will sink in but I don't feel it necessary to dowse enthusiasm or to actively build his hopes, keep it real and all will be well. We have all had dreams and there is nothing wrong with that, given the state of the world dreams are quite a nice place to live.

I do wish you both luck on this fascinating journey, he sounds a joy to teach and it must be very satisfying. He may just surprise us all and by some peculiar stroke of luck combined with genuis and make it, nothing is impossible however unlikely it may seem right now.

Kindest regards

Andrew

Hi there, what an amazing student you have! just out of curiosity - has he mastered the vibrato yet? I ask as he appears to be zooming a head and vibrato is quite an important (and beautiful) side to the violin (which i cant WAIT for my daughter to start doing!!)

As AmandaL said, grade 5-6 is a cut off point for a lot of students, and after that grade 8, so I would tell him to see how it goes and encourage him to keep his job for now! I would have thought that he is highly unlikely to get a music college place at his age as there are so many young violinists around, so he would either have to go the uni route, or CTABRSM. Have a discussion with him about salaries - his present one and it's future prospects versus teaching and the continual drive to get paid playing work. Having started this late physical problems may begin to creep in, and playing for functions etc can become pretty boring after a while. Is he prepared for that?
I am having similar discussions with a new 19 year old flute student at the moment - failed to get any college places last year but wants to audition again in October. She is not good enough or dedicated enough (still can't manage even an hour a day) and I have had to be pretty brutal ( after a lot of thought about it!) Part of the responsibility of being a teacher is not to lead people up the garden path. In the mean time, enjoy his enthusiasm!

Re vibrato, I've just started showing him how to do it. He picked the basic movement up very quickly and is now practising long open strings doing 8 vibrates per bow. Next week it'll be 16 and once it's really solid I'll get him to start putting it into his playing.

We're also gearing up for 3rd position, as he's pretty much mastered Grade 2 and all the scales and arpeggios at that level and are going to start with Grade 3 pieces, scales and arpeggios next week. I'm letting him work systematically through the grade repertoire (with mocks) because that's what he wants - he may take the actual Grade 3 exam in the Autumn (after learning violin for 6 months!!!) if he's ready by then.

I always feel that once a student starts mastering 3rd position and vibrato the playing moves onto a different level and gets much more exciting, particularly for them. He's also decided to invest in a really good violin!

One of the fantastic things about him is that he diligently practises everything I set him, and for long periods, so you really see the progress week after week. So with that plus his natural flair... I must say he's one of the top 3 adult beginners I've ever had. I only lost the other two because they moved abroad but they both still keep in touch which is nice. They'd both played guitar before so I think you do have a headstart if you're already adept at another instrument, but still - not every non-violin playing musician has progressed as well as these three. Interestingly one of them was 19 and the other was 26 so it really must be to do with the growth plate thing. I also have a 29-year-old and a 34-year-old, both beginners, and they're finding it much harder, particularly in the left hand department.

I'm certainly not going to do anything to discourage this student but will just tell him how hard it is for even top players to get into professional orchestras. However, where we live there are a lot of amateur orchestras where you can join at about Grade 5 level, so I think in about a year he should be able to start hawking himself around. Amazing, huh? I get so excited every week when his lesson comes round!

Oh my goodness this person doesn't want much, does she! Mind you, if she's managed to get work as a model and appear on the Weakest Link - well, there are plenty of people out there who'd practically kill to do either and this woman has done both so she's obviously a force to be reckoned with! However, musical talent can't be willed, and she's going to have to put the practice hours in if she's going to be able to perform live as a singer and pianist! When the Weakest Link programme's going to be shown, give us the date so we can all have a peep - or would that be a bit naughty of you?!? I think she could be a fun student once she stops crowding you at the piano. Let us know how she gets on!

It would be great if you could keep us posted on this student Violinia. I for one am facsinated

Yes, this is extremely difficult, how to encourage him but at the same time disabuse him of any notion that he can make a living from music (I'm sorry, I haven't heard him, but the odds are not in his favour!)

It sounds as if you are being very sensible about this, Violinia, and not promising him the world. Just continue to enjoy teaching him, and you never know, you might have a convert to Grappelli (sp?)in your midst!

I once heard someone describe the difference between an amateur and a pro: " An amateur can be excellent on a good day, wheras a pro has to be really good on a bad day"

I do sometimes feel rather inadequate when reading through these threads!

When I was about grade 4 standard, albiet on the piano, grade 8 still seemed a world away! It was something for "one day", but I'm sure getting to grade 5 or 6 standard would have been the next goal in my sights. As you advance up the grades on any instrument the leap in standard required gets bigger. I admire anyone being so ambitious, but even as a talented grade 3/4 student, it's best not to be hasty.

I'd go with all the other advice and enjoy the pupil, be encouraging and possibly disuade him from cutting back on his other job for a year at least, to ensure he will keep up the swift progress he's making at the minute. It would be awful for him to change his lifestyle completely and then find that improvement starts to slow down after a couple of years, and it will take longer than he thought to reach the desired level of playing.

It would be a nice story to read about someone taking up the violin so late and becoming really successful at it! If it's destined to be, it will be, but a step at a time, rather than overnight.

Good luck!

This topic of the 'growth plate' thing is interesting.....
I am 37 and started learning violin in January this year...never played any other instrument before and basic knowledge of theory (grade 1 standard maybe?), started piano a month before violin.....
well, I started practicing every day but in past 3 months (it is now 7 months I have been learning) I have been practicing mainly 5 times a week for an hour to an hour and fifteen minutes each session...
my teacher thinks I am progressing quickly, although I have sat the grade 1 and passed with distinction end of June, he wanted me to go for grade 2 and he thinks that now I'd be ready for grade 3 in next 2 months (I am only saying what he says) He started me on third position this week, I asked him as I have learnt all scales and arpeggios for grade 1/2 and 3 but did not master D major 2 octaves as I wanted him to show me the correct way to shift.
Now.....my 'growth plate' has definitely stopped by now! I am sure does it mean that maybe I am lucky enough to be 'built for the violin'??? (If 'older' students generally find it 'harder'?)

Wow, you sound like you're progressing at very much the same rate as my student! But you're 10 years older, and you say you've only just taken up piano as well, so I take my hat off to you! Not that rapid progress is necessarily indicative of something truly special, but with your distinction at Grade 1 I would say, yes what you've achieved is pretty unique and very exciting both for you and your teacher. Interesting that you're doing about the same amount of practice as my student too...

I would say if you have good posture all round and aren't suffering aches and pains anywhere then yes you're probably 'built for violin' and very fortunate! Just go for it the way you are already but be prepared to step up the practice when you get to Grade 5 level and beyond as it does get harder. The very best of luck and please give us regular updates!

Re my student changing his job, what he meant was change it to a job with the same income but better hours to give him more time to practise. Don't worry, I didn't mean he's giving up work altogether!

Thank you Violinia,
my posture I believe is good all around, I don't have aches and pains when I play for the whole hour and a quarter and my teacher hasn't had to correct me since maybe my second lesson back in January about it! When I first started playing I used to practice ten minutes then I had to stop as I felt 'stiff' in places, within a copule of weeks I was playing half an hour and I think it was about 4 weeks before I started playing an hour to an hour and a half (depends on day, what I have to do, if I have done piano or not yet, I try to play piano for the same amount of time as well, but when I work long shifts at the hospital I have to reduce my practice to half an hour per instrument, this is a couple of days a week to three at most).
I know that when I reach an higher grade either I will practice more or my progress will slow down, I am not expecting this rate of progress all the time with the same amount of practice so I am mentally ready for it Nice to know that I am probably 'built' for the violin as I do like it a lot and am looking forward to long enjoyable hours of playing and entertaining friends etc in future.

Regarding your student, if he doesn't lose out on the money then why not? If I was in his position, able to change my work hours without losing money I'd do it immediately! I don't know what I would give to be able to double my practice time!

I wish you and your student a long and rewarding teacher-student relationship

There is a way - possibly - that your pupil could persue music as a professional career if he is really that keen, talented and dedicated. You might suggest that he considers applying to the Royal Military School of Music at Kneller Hall, or similar, as I believe that musicians can be taken on for training up to the age of 30. Dedication is 'key' rather than exams passed, and they will train prospective pupils on a concert band instrument as well as a string instrument for orchestral work. The training is excellent, and they take pupils based on their potential for the future. I am not aware that any paper qualifications are required at the outset.

Just a thought anyway

Ambitious Adult Pupil update: gave him a Grade 2 mock exam today and he got 132! I marked quite strictly too..

He's now working on a Grade 3 piece, lots of studies and some of the scales. He now needs some 3rd position studies to help with that, and is also working on his vibrato (coming on very nicely). All this after just 5 months of playing!

He's even more adamant that he wants to get to Grade 5 within 5 years; I'm saying this depends almost entirely on how much practice a day he's able to manage. He's currently able to manage about an hour most days, which is great but I frankly don't think it'll be enough to reach his goal.

I wish he wasn't in such a rush!

I also want him to enjoy it primarily and stop worrying so much about reaching a particular goal in a specified length of time. Sigh.

Are you sure an hour a day won't be enough to reach his goal? At least he's saying five years, and not two! It sounds like things are going pretty well at the minute, anyway.

Some people are inherently more 'bendy' that others - the shape of the joints, tendon length etc. all contributing to the cause. Not everyone is flexible, even as a child, while others are able to contort their body into all sorts of weird positions.

If you do have a natural flexibility that allows you to perform certain activities, then make use of it. As you get older - and ultimately most people become more sedentary as each decade passes - stiffness will be the result of a lack of use of the joints and stretching of the tendons, and muscles.

It's much like brain power and the link with Alzheimers, dementia etc. Use it, or lose it.

I've followed this thread with interest.....maybe my story will help you to gain some insight into the drive within some of us 'adult learners'.....

I was asked to look after a Roland piano and decided to take up piano lessons two years ago when my daughter started learning in a music group - I thought it might encourage her to practice! I'd had some lessons as a child but never took grade 1. After my first lesson I was graded at 1/2 level. My teacher was great and encouraged me to play pieces that I'd always wanted to play, even though it meant that I ended up practising for 1-2 hours a night - some of the pieces were way beyond my level!

My initial plan was to play 'for fun' and not take exams, but just before the deadline for Spring 2006 my teacher suggested that I should consider taking an exam and recommended entering for grade 3. I duly entered and, not knowing what to expect, having never done exams, I was very surprised to get 128! A little miffed at missing a distinction by 2 points, I then entered myself for grade 4 in Summer 2006 (against advice), worked very hard and got a distinction (just!).

I can fully understand why G5 is such a big deal; since that 'fateful day' when I entered for G3, all I have wanted to achieve is grade 5 piano. The last year has been tough as there's a big jump between 4 and 5, and I found that I wasn't able to practise as much as I would have liked due to other commitments. Still, the dirty deed is done and I am now the proud owner of a grade 5 certificate. I am now SOOOOO completely relaxed about playing/practising, having achieved my goal, that my teacher has had stern words and threatened to write to my mother (I'm almost 40) !!! It is difficult to maintain the intensity that I started off at, and at this point I want it to be 'fun' again....

Ambitious? I love a challenge and I suspect this is the case with a lot of adult learners in my position - plus the fact that this is so different to what I have trained to do (career wise) that I find it strangely therapeutic. I don't know how far I will take this but, as this is as far as I originally intended to go, I'm happy to stop here for the moment. Of course, if I pass G5 theory (I'm doing past papers at the moment to test the waters), things might become a little frantic again....

(Oh - I also started violin last summer, and am tinkling along merrily on that front with grade 3 pieces.....)

Well done, Looney T!!!

Thank you

I'm surprisingly more proud of my musical achievements than my professional achievements, which I sort of drifted into from school, then uni.....I feel I'm finally doing something for myself - if anyone understands that?

I do! My degree, for instance, means nothing to me compared with what I've achieved musically. Having never really cared too much about any exams I ever did, and always sailing through regardless, I suddenly realised one day that here was something I really cared about - and it was the first thing that I could stand a real chance of messing up - which led to nerves and all that, which becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. And I, too, was an adult before I took any music exams, so I understand the doing it for yourself bit totally.

Tell me about nerves!!! Presumably it gets better? It's what's putting me off doing further violin exams - I could just about cope with the nerves/shaking hands on the piano but my bowing went to pot in my grade 2 exam in March although somehow I managed 126. I think my examiners have been terribly kind!

Wow LooneyTunes, you're doing really well at the violin! You started learning last summer, did your Grade 2 in March and got 126 - that's brilliant! Are you working on the new Grade 3 syllabus or the old one? My student's looking at the new syllabus and has started on the Chopin piece, which he loves and has almost mastered already. Shifting's going to give him pause for thought however, and I'm going to get him the Neil McKay elementary shifting book to get him into it properly. I hope your violin teacher is giving you studies as well as pieces to learn - I've gone full circle and come back to the view that studies and exercises are indispensible if you really want to develop a good technique.

Anyway I found your posts very moving and inspiring.

Thank you for the compliment! You're very kind. Your student sounds smashing and one I am sure you enjoy teaching.

I took up violin when my daughter started learning so I could try and encourage her (as with piano!) My first violin teacher has sadly moved on to a new teaching job - I had lessons every other week or so and we would have a ball doing duets and the like. It was a refreshing change after the intensity of piano, believe me! I found the grade 2 pieces, scales etc relatively straightforward, presumably due to my piano background, no problem with pitching in 1st position. Bowing technique I am told will come and my new teacher has given me exercises to do on that front. The pieces I am currently learning in the old grade 3 syllabus require no position change (A3 - a little tricky, B1 - fine, lovely piece, C3 - fine). I have been advised to work through Rowsby Woof's studies using 3rd and 2nd position; the deal is to work through all the pieces in the G3 syllabus if I don't do the exam. More of a challenge is vibrato, which I have also started learning. It's a rather unforgiving instrument, but one I hope to master to a reasonable degree given time.....

One other thing - I love wood! I should have advised my daughter to take up a different instrument......I now have a collection total of 4 full sized violins which is rather daft....

All sorts are appearing in my head right now
I am lucky I am 'flexible' with my arms/hands but when I went to the gym a little while ago and had a fitness assessment, I scored very high in all fitness assessments, higher than most people in my age group, but I scored TERRIBLY low (almost underground) for 'suppleness'!!! scored lower than people almost double my age!! so I definitely cannot get into any 'weird position' (except from my hands/wrists like mentioned)
after this 'little joke' I must add that I know very well what Amanda was trying to say and she's right



I also wanted to congratulate you LooneyT! and: am jealous about your 'wood collection'

It sounds as though you're doing brilliantly yourself! Compliment returned!

I think that as adults we are more focussed (and more prepared to practice!), which is why I think in my case I have progressed as far as I have so quickly. It's the same with older kids as well - progress is much quicker.

Foot behind the neck job and that sort of thing

Another example are dance students who never manage the splits completely, no matter how hard they try or practice. Some just have joints that will flex in any direction, others don't.

My party trick is putting my big toe to my nose - prefereably with clean feet - but I did used to do ballet when I was younger and although not as bendy as I was then, especially in the spine, I still do many of the warm up routines four or five times a week.

Keep up the practice jojo. Even stopping for a couple of weeks will leave you feeling a difference.

Hey I can do that too

RIGHT, if we have to 'go down that road' then I can say that I can lick my nose but I am not a dog and can bend the top bit of my thumbs (the bit with nail on) backwards

I can lick my nose, and I can also touch my nose with my toe. I had to try that one to find out, but I was fairly sure that I could on the grounds that I know I can... bite my toenails (but not since I was much much much much much younger have I actually done that. I just theoretically could do it now if the urge took me).

Ahh, a bit of hyperflexibility there then! Be careful, waggling your digits around like that is not what you really want for playing the violin. If you can do the same with your fingers, then concentrate on developing the muscular strength to prevent the hand from losing its rounded shape shape when playing. Collapsing finger joints (LH fingers while stopping the notes) is something you'd need to be careful about. I've also caught pupils using it to correct intonational slips by letting the finger joints drop downwards, thereby lifting the front of the finger, rather than actually moving the fingertip back on the string.