Hi!

A friend of mine posted a bulletin on myspace saying the following..



So, is this common amongst drummers to start offering lessons at grade 5? and has anyone seen anyone else offering lessons on other instruments when they are at this standard...or less

Well, let's just say that (some) rock musicians do tend to overate their own abilities. Would any rock/pop fan wanting to learn the drums actually understand what Grade 5 meant? To most, it might sound quite academic.

I'm sure standards have slipped in the last couple of decades anyway. How often these days do you come across a drummer in the same league as somebody like Phil Collins?

My father used to play the drums in a jazz trio. He was more of less self taught and was actually very good, but he would never have had the cheek to advertise to teach.

How patronising

And in answer to your last question, yes.
I've seen it on this forum.

Totally unrelated to music, but here goes - I have a friend who used to help out in her daughters' primary/junior school, art, cooking etc., paid by the school. The powers that be decided to introduce the classroom assistant jobs, so she was told she had to take a test to get the new job. She's lovely but not very bright, and came out with a reading age of 11. She really couldn't understand why the lea wouldn't employ her to help with reading/writing for the children (which was part of the new job description) as her reading age was about the same as theirs! I would have been very concerned if she had been employed, but it is a shame she wasn't allowed to carry on with the art tasks that she so enjoyed.

My teachers were telling me about some awful scheme that is being offered to schools in place of peris : A company or agency recruit anyone with grade 5 or above to teach in schools!

Well when I was grade 5 I wouldn't have a clue how to teach anyone to blow the instrument, and I wasn't really interested in music at that stage either!

I have had pupils come to me from previous teachers who were only grade 5 themselves & had taught up to grade 5, with rather disastrous results. The pupils needed so much remedial work, it would have been better to have started again from the beginning, but that would be so demoralising. I think it's so important for teachers to be well above the standard they're teaching to.

Even if it wasn't 'teaching' as such in the formal sense, but just fancied a chat every week about techniques or new pieces. Playing drums in a rock band really isn't about playing from a score, like a lot of the musicians on here do: not slating anything here, but it's just a different way of making music. To me it doesn't look like the advert is offering formal lessons, but just someone to chat to with ideas, someone to play to and to comment, giving tips and hints, etc.

If someone wanted to properly learn 'percussion', they'd go to a qualified percussion teacher, no? Not someone that's passed grade 5. Sometimes people don't want formal lessons.

Or does the truth just hurt? Put it this way, how many rock/pop fans of the type who 'rubbish' any form of music other than that they like themselves, would know what the ABRSM, TG or LCM are? Not many, that's for sure.

If any of my Grade 5 pupils put out an advert to teach, I'd be horrified. They wouldn't have a clue where to start when it comes to teaching.

There are some things where you can be a world class teacher or coach without being able to do the thing you are teaching/coaching. Peter Coe did a pretty good job as an athletics coach with his son Sebastian, for instance. Alas, I don't believe music is one of them.

It must be possible for an individual to become better than his or her teacher, otherwise virtuosos would never emerge. However, in order to train to any standard you must have a comprehensive grasp of the subject (in this case music) at that standard as well as an understanding of how to teach. I would venture to suggest that most players with grade 5 (not all, see below) may have enough of a grasp to play well enough to pass grade 5 but probably only have enough of a grasp of music to teach to grade 1 level and may well not have any understanding of teaching methods at all. I suspect such people include the ones who label every note for their pupils rather than teaching them to read music.

Having said which, a grade 5 pass certificate is a mark of the level someone reached at some stage in the past, it doesn't neccesarily tell you how good that person may be now. It is quite possible to have no qualification higher than grade 5 but nonetheless to be a skilled musician and a gifted teacher. I strongly suspect that most rock musicians don't bother with grades at all, so you probably are more likely to come across such a teacher in the rock field than the classical field: Certainly if Eric Clapton, with no qualifications at all that I am aware of, offered me guitar lessons I wouldn't be too sniffy about it.

In the end, "The proof of the pudding is in the eating".

Edit: Come to think of it, I've only got grade 5 piano & grade 6 or 7 theory myself!! Mind you, I'm not offering lessons.

I would agree there, but, Eric Clapton is a guitarist of many decades of experience, much like Phil Collins on drums.

The original post said that the advert quotes the person has JUST PASSED their Grade 5 and had been playing for 5 years.

Would you really want to be taught by someone who'd only been playing 5 years and just passed their Grade 5? I know I wouldn't.

Absolutely: In the specific case, I think it is extremely dodgy. I was just pointing out that the general case may have a lot of exceptions.

You are wrong there AmandaL, it says 'just past'

But at the end of the day, it's not a very serious place to post a message, is it? On Myspace. They're not pretending to be a qualified teacher. It's up to them what they do.

So have they 'past' or 'passed'?

Well, I can see what you mean, but what about the unsuspecting potential pupils, who are none the wiser? Cheap lessons from someone with Grade 5. They wouldn't realise what they were letting themselves in for.

Caveat emptor and all that?

But the point is that they, in their opinion, think they are qualified to teach.

OK, so say someone went for the advert and gave this person a ring. When they turn up for 'lessons' then the student would either see that it's not what they want, and leave, or they'd stay because it IS what they wanted.

That is, of course, if this person gets any calls, it's not the most articulate of adverts...

Teaching is a skill – for any subject. It is a skill needed alongside the knowledge of one’s subject. It involves observing pupils, being aware of the psychology of learning, the developmental aspect of learning, the physical and emotional aspects of learning, the way in which memory and concentration function. It involves being able to chose the right level of language communication etc. etc and as all good teachers out there know, my little list is only scratching the surface.

It also involves a wide knowledge of available teaching methods and materials, the ability to assess what is appropriate for pupils at each stage of their development. It means knowing how to communicate positively with parents.

Most of all you have to enjoy it ! It goes without saying that to be a good teacher you need to know your subject and to continually update. But one also needs a certain maturity ( - maturity, not age).

The local music schools here use students of roughly Grade 8 standard to teach beginners and it doesn’t work very well. The students move on after a year or two, so there is little continuity and their
teaching techniques are limited.

A Grade 5 piano pupil of mine learnt the clarinet under these circumstances. Being musical and a pianist and recorder player she got to about Grade 3 and was then pressurised by the Association I work for to give some clarinet lessons to a beginner because they couldn’t find a qualified clarinet teacher. My pupil complained to me that her pupil wasn’t making any progress because “She doesn’t practise for half an hour a day.” I pointed out that young beginners don’t have enough material (or enough stamina) to warrant 30 minutes practice every day and that if you were learning a tune on 2 or 3 notes you’d have to repeat it innumerable times to fill 30 minutes daily. My pupil was not convinced because that was what she had been told by her student clarinet teacher. Needless to say, the arrangement didn’t last.

As a classical rocker, I must say that it always has seemed the case that it's almost always the other way around. Classical musicians nearly always rubbish rock, deeming it as a lesser art, whereas the great rock musicians around have a deep appreciation for earlier forms of music.

As a side note: Listen to Brian May and his 'fugue' work (say in Killer Queen). He loves Bach!

I'd say that the first paragraph above is pretty true! A lot of rock music is basic, but by the same token , a lot of it is most definitely not, and drumming is much more than keeping a steady beat. Side note - yes! Deep Purple also used a lot of Bach 'riffs'.

Scarily many people advertise that they can teach when they have not got up to even grade 7 standard.
My singing teachers husband who teachs guitar once inherited a student who had been playing before and got a distinction in grade two. When asked out of interest why the student had changed to him the student replied "my old teacher didn't know more than grade two!!!"
I nearly passed out in shock.
I have been asked by many people whether I am going to start teaching but have answered no. I havn't even reached grade seven yet and therefore I don't think I would be qualified to do the job justice.
However I know many teachers who are brilliant teachers but don't have any exam qualifications because they didn't want to do them.

Odd, i suppose it all varies doesn't it?
x

I've been reading this thread with interest, and now feel I can post a reply. I have my running shoes on so I can make a quick getaway!!

I started teaching just over two years ago when I was at Grade...ahem...5...I am now going to re-sit my Grade 7. (I first sat it this January, but failed as it was the same day as an Uncles funeral).

However, I had grade 7 theory, plus The Diploma In Music from the Open University to support my knowledge. I am now doing the BA (Hons) with the OU.

My students so far have sat the grades up to grade 3, and the majority have passed with high Passes or low Merits. I won't (at the moment) teach anyone to above Grade 5.
I agree with maddielou's last few lines. I also know tutors with no official qualifications, just a very high standard of musicianship and a natural ability to teach.

I'm off now...

*Runs away fast(ish) ....*

Don't run too far, DC; I'd say you're doing just fine - and good on you for sticking to your guns in that other little matter about your pupils' interfering previous teacher. The calibre of a teacher isn't always measured in what they've got, but in where they're going. A teacher never stops learning; it's when they think they have nothing to learn that the problems arise. I'd say that it won't be too long before you're revising what level you're prepared to teach to. I started teaching before I had Grade 8 and thought I couldn't teach beyond Grade 5, but when you have them to that point you'll want to keep them and continue to do your best for them - so stay ahead and keep learning! I think, as a pupil, too, one can very readily get inside the mind of one's own pupils.

DaisyChain – you needn’t run anywhere!
Some people have a natural gift for teaching as opposed to mainly just “showing” and you have very obviously got it – as reading the thread about the note naming mother shows.

The teaching students I mentioned in my post above hadn’t got that insight. They may have eventually acquired it with training – or not. But they themselves are the product of a very rigid system of musical education .Having a natural flair for teaching usually means having a natural flair for learning – how to teach – and we go on learning that all our lives

OOOOOOOOOOO, I fear we are in grave danger of double standards here people.

Had a quick shufty around the posts and can't find the one I want just now, but I'm sure some of you will remember it....

...anyway, general jist was a 16-17 year old violin student, grade 8 level, was thinking of giving lessons to make some money, because a teacher had suggested it. Everyone was bubbling with positive comments and a go-get-it ring. Of course, she would be upto the job ------- absolutely no doubt here, is there? Now, the way I read it is that our origional poster here is doing nothing different. Oh but he is... he doesn't play an oboe, or violin, or french horn, AND he plays that awful stuff, sssssshhhhhh pop/rock music He/she may not be 'just' at grade 5 level, that may be simply the grade which has been most recently taken. There is no mention of age either - or musical knowledge. Exactly, you may respond. But the feedback I am picking up on is that this drummer simply must be of the neandrathol category. He couldn't possibly know anything of value re. music (heavens, he might not realise that there IS a Grade 6!) or even think he could teach. Very rough and short-sighted in my personal opinion guys. I just wonder, how many of our contributers here have attemtped drumkit, played in a rock band, or can read percussion notation. Well, hmmmmm? Drumkit is very, very difficult and requires skill. Yes, it can be badly played - but sure don't we all love to listen to budding string, brass players 'til the cows come home, and go 'Aaaaaaaah, they'll get there'.

Some of our young drummers could leave us for the vultures folks - believe me.

p.s This is not aimed at anyone specific, ok?

So glad someone else said that lot before me...

I have a younger brother who's twice the musician I am, great natural ear, while I always - and still - have to work hard at the aural side. (He could listen to a song and identify which drum was the first played. ) But while I was happy doing ABRSM exams, you couldn't have paid him to sit any more exams than he had to.

Did he know exams existed? Yes! Being a guitarist and drummer didn't make him an idiot.
It did, however, seem to give him a much more laid-back attitude to music than folk on the classical side sometimes have. And he learned guitar and drums from and older pupil in the school, long before most exam boards even had exams for those instruments.
He's still one of the best drummers I know.

GIVE.......IT.......LARGE Alder !!!!!!!

Sorry to jump in here, I'm not taking issue with the rest of your post at all, it's just.. not knowing something doesn't make you stupid - ignorant but not stupid. Why would someone know about exams if they had never been told!

My little sister didn't know about music exams for a long time because her guitar teacher had never mentioned them, he didn't see the need for them. That didn't make her stupid! Nor did it make her any less of a decent guitarist...

Any instumentalist might not know about exams if they're not informed of it. However, if you read some of the earlier posts you'll see that there's an implication - perhaps unintentional, but there - that lowly pop/rockers just wouldn't know about this stuff.

Also, there's the suggestion that standards in rock have fallen. Quoting my brother again, I was in the car with him a few weeks back, and listening to the Beatles and the Eagles. Though he doesn't have a huge opinion of his own playing, at one point he said something along the lines of "I'm good enough to have played with them..." because the drumming, while brilliant for it's time, is so much more simple than the standard drummers have to reach now...

If I remember correctly weren't their a few contributions to the thread which said that the person shouldn't teach and certainly shouldn't teacher beginners! So it wasn't all 'Go for it'! And there is a big difference between passing grade 5 and getting , I believe, a Distinction at grade 8! And if we had the view of "that awful stuff, sssssshhhhhh pop/rock music " then surely we wouldn't care if the teacher was grade 5 because after all, it is awful music so a good teacher isn't needed!

I know, and I think I understand what you're getting at, it's just that you bristled at the thought of rockers being thought lowly - fair enough... but you also got annoyed at the idea that a rocker wouldn't know about exams - all I'm saying is that people can still be amazing rockers, AND just as good as any other instrumentalists without knowing about exams...

The implication in your post as I saw it (and I'm sure it was unintentional) was that rockers are not lowly if they know about exams... but that it's offensive to think your brother didn't know... which sort of implies that you think any instrumentalists without that information are lower than those with it...

I agree with you both, but you are referring to a music that I too like and listen to, and would regard as 'true' rock. Have you also listened to the complexity of some of the earlier stuff by Iron Maiden?

A lot depends on what an individuals idea of what rock music is? There's some superficial stuff out there that would want to pass itself off as rock, but it's certainly not in the bracket of Eric Clapton et al.

Incidentally, rock music is not Brian Mays' only attribute. He's just submitted his Astrophysics PhD to Imperial College. Only the viva voce to go and he's finished ... more than 30 years after jacking it all in to join Queen.

Does it all really matter though? We are all different, hence our differing views on what music is and what music we like. At the end of the day there will be people who prefer classical to rock and vice versa, but as long as the instrumentalists in question are enjoying themselves does it really matter if XYZ thinks that ABC band are "lowly"?

I thought an important point in music was that it was enjoyable. Yes, there are other things to consider but for goodness sake why do people have to diss other people so much just because it isn't to their taste? Rock musicians will be rock musicians (or instrumentalists - who cares) and as long as they are enjoying making their type of music then great. The same goes for classical musicians.

I didn't follow that last sentence 100%, but I was trying to say the opposite. Knowing, or not knowing, about exams - from any exam board - makes you no better, or worse, than any other musician.
I don't think that being a rock/pop musician - or I suppose, a jazz musician, since a lot of the jazz exams are much newer - makes you inherently less informed than, say, a classical musician.

Particularly these days, when any young person would just Google the information if they really wanted to know...

I think that instruments like drums, guitar etc are probably slightly different to classical instruments in the way they are taught.
I know in my school a lot of people were coming into Int 2 music with no grades at all and one or two came out as very competent drummers. A few years later the same people went into Adv Higher Music where Gr 5 is now deemed sufficient for performance units and they were helping with the younger groups in class, demonstrating and teaching the instrument just as well as most of the teachers with BMus, PGCE etc.
Equally in the case of the violinist isn't it is just as likely that they may not have a clue where to start? Wasn't there a post from a flautist at Gr. 8 going on to Dip who started by teaching the fingerings and then didn't know how to teach them to play a note?
It seems a lot of it might come from how its taught originally, with classical instruments its generally on a one to one basis, so the only support tends to be the teacher whereas with other instruments its learnt in groups where they start showing each other what to do fairly early on. Ironically enough it may make it more difficult for classical musicians to get in to teaching because although they understand what needs to be done they have no experience of explaining it to others.

A question for any real rock musicians out there....
My suspicion is that a serious rock musician would probably not bother with grades. I know someone who has made it to Grade 5 standard on the the drums having hardly ever practised at home. A real enthusiast would surely being playing all the time, and would therefore not see the need to do exams...? Or am I entirely wrong?

I am sorry I didn't realise we were differenciating between rock and pop fans and rock and pop fans who 'rubbish' everyone elses music, you certainly didn't specify this in your first post

I am not even entering the debate about whether grade 5's should or shouldn't teach, I am just so shocked at your attitude. Perhaps it is just because things are misinterpreted on the internet, but to me your attitude is incredibly haughty and stuck up. Please feel free to correct me if you have some research proving your point, a survey, some data backing it up perhaps, but until then perhaps you should keep your more offensive assumptions to yourself, or are you relying on the fact that these rock, pop musicians wont have the intellect to decipher your post






What an excellently worded post Nat

Before you direct personal comments, do you actually know me? There are forumites on here who do know me as a person and they will verify that I am none of what your own incorrect assumptions are.

As a professional musician I am in a position of personal experience in music, but equally someone who does not continually boast about what I have done. However, I have worked with some modern rock bands (whose names will remain anonymous) and many of them leave a lot to be desired in skill level. Modern electronics and mixing desks make up for a lot of what many others think is their playing.

I am certain there are rock musicians who will have more than adequate intellect - as you put it - to decipher my post, but I'm sorry to say it, there are also a number of them who can barely strum half a dozen chords on a guitar but have the nerve to call themselves 'professional' musicians. The latter are an insult to both true rock musicians and musicans of any other genre for that matter.

My apologies what I meant to say was that you are coming across as haughty and stuck up, not that you actually are, as you correctly point out I do not know you. I'm sure you are a lovely person. I just want to know how you can justify what you said? You orginal post said 'any rock pop fans' not a few rock bands from your own personal experience.

It is this kind of throw away comment which causes intolerance, I mean imagine if a 'rock/pop fan' (incidently I think you will find many people on the forums are fans of alot of pop/ rock music, as well as classical and contempory compostions) read your post and assumed that classical music fans were snobs and thought that thier way was the only way, the way in which you have assumed that they would not have a clue what grade 5 meant.

That is why I said it was patronising, ABRSM is not a special club for a select few it is world wide with hundreds of thousands of people taking exams every year, even if people haven't taken any themselves, they may know someone who has, and have some understanding of what it means.

Also the folks who can bearly strum a few chords and dare to call themselves musicians, may be an insult to 'real' musicans, but I still fail to see how that has a bearing on whether or not they understand what a grade five music examination is, care to explain?

Veering off topic somewhat, as is my won't, AP and I were in Banks' today in York when a lady came in and asked for a book saying 'I'm going to teach the basics of the piano to a little girl, do you have any piano books for beginners?'. To which I thought 'Nooooooooooooo! If you need to ask that question, what the h... do you think you're doing teaching her?'. As many often say here, the basics are the most important and aren't something to be left to inexperienced hands.

It is quite normal for people to get driving lessons to cover the basics before driving their parents' cars, as their parents feel they need an experienced driving instructor to set the ground work. Obviously, for a motor vehicle, it is literally life-or-death to get it right, but people seem to have a mental blank when it comes to instrument tuition.

As for whether grades are needed to teach an instrument - certainly the ability represented by them is. Sticking to what I know, I'd be suspicious of a piano teacher whose abilities did not include grade 8; if they don't have the qualification, fair enough, but if the exam would be any sort of hurdle to them were they to attempt it.... I'm not 100% convinced with teaching diplomas, they don't seem to test enough of what makes a good teacher - is that even possible to test? The CT ABRSM I think is a good course - because it is a course, not just a measuring stick - so whatever happens, teachers with it will at least have been told useful stuff along the way.

Because our worlds are now so measured in every way, we are naturally suspicious of anyone who doesn't have a particular notch on that yardstick. But in many ways the best of teachers are sidelined by that very fact. Some of the most efficient teachers I ever had, for various subjects, were the ones who just stood at the front of the class with no material whatsoever at their disposal, and who commanded immediate respect, undivided attention - and who achieved from their pupils an absolute absorbtion in the subject - because there was nothing through which to filter it - no tutor book, no agenda. There was a rapport, eye contact, mental stimulation, and an immediate response to the needs of the moment. In many ways I feel that tutor books, exam agendas, parental requirements - modern yardsticks - hold back real learning. Yes, we are suspicious of someone who doesn't have particular credentials now, and this guy about whom the thread was started may well be chancing his arm, but that assumption could be as much of an indictement on our society as on him. He would have been better to have outlined his performance experience, his intentions for furthering his own learning, and his desire to pass on what he already knows. But at the end of the day, he has made no pretentions. 'This is what I have. Take it or leave it.' I'd say that it wouldn't be too long before a discerning parent or student would know whether or not he was worth continuing with.

I'm finding this thread really interesting because I feel it's highlighting a very important point - that grades do measure levels of achievement in certain areas, but they are certainly not the be-all or end-all of music tuition. To answer a query of Dulciana's, my 16 year old son would regard himself as a 'serious' rock musician - he has had guitar lessons for about 6 years and is shortly starting his National Diploma in music. He has no interest in exams whatsoever at present - the only criteria which seems to matter for him is how well he can play - individually and as part of a group. I have no idea whether his teacher has grades or not, but I do know he is a professional player who has performed with some big names - and he is an inspiring teacher.

I teach mainly electronic keyboard and a bit of piano. Although I have grade 8 and a music degree, I have to say that my classically orientated musical education has only helped me so far when it comes to my current teaching. I feel I have learnt a lot from performing myself, arranging music for bands and ensembles, and listening and analysing contemporary music trends.

Re YAP's comments about the CT course - I have just completed this and I am sure I am a much better teacher for it. Although I've been teaching for about 10 years, I chose it over a diploma precisely because it was a professional development course rather than just a 'yardstick'. I should add, not everybody who completed the course had grade 8.

OK, a bit blethery, but I think I get the picture. Your memory is indeed 100% - but then I was working on the general jist, as I said at the beginning. Remember?
ANYWAY, yes I agree, as would everyone else no doubt that, performance wise, a dist. at gr8 is indeed different from a pass at gr5. Bit of a no brainer that one. But this grade 8 distinction (no connection to the individual actually concerned folks, OK) does not automatically confirm that the holder is able to teach anyone, or that he/she has the social skills required at 16-17. A point also is that he/she said it was A teacher, not specifically the music teacher.


I don't follow the last bit of your reply. could you please clarify?

RSVP

Hey, wee tribute to the great QUEEN

Scaramouche dude - will you do the fandango?????????

To get onto the AB's own highly respected CTABRSM (instrumental teacher's course) all you need is 5 pupils! No grades at all specified. The course requires you to spend a large number of hours with an instrument[-specific mentor (who really knows their stuff), write some long involved assignments and do a couple of big projects on instrumental teaching.

By the end of all that you could hardly avoid knowing your stuff, and if you don't, they'll weed you out one way or another, or make it very apparent to you that you need to go back to the drawing board. I've heard people say you learn more on the CTABRSM course than on a teaching diploma.

Think about Indian musicians and musical gypsies, and what they pass on to their students. The passing of grade exams isn't necessary; what you do need, however, is a deep understanding of your instrument and how to play it, plus a love and talent for teaching. And a knowledge of repertoire and various teaching methods. In fact the list is endless but you do learn as you go.

I just don't think grades necessarily make you a better teacher, although I do think you should be able to play to at least Grade 8 standard on the instrument you're teaching, whether you've chosen to take Grade exams or not.

Couldn't agree more - very well put.

I think - going back to the original post - the individual concerned doesn't come across as particularly experienced, and that the whole 'take it or leave it' thing is a bit...... 'i'm good whether you can see it or not'. *hoping i wont get slated - sensitivity appears to be on high alert with this thread*

HOWEVER, there may well be many rock musicians who have no grades but are excellent teachers. As someone else said: proof of the pudding.

P.S. i learn all classical stuff, but i'm personally in awe of anyone who can play guitar or drums in the way they do in bands. I think it's an incredible talent to have. It's just a different sort of talent - how boring would the world be if everyone did the same things??

Yes, it got a bit hairy for a while there

He's a drummer, what do you expect?

You're asking for it.....